Should I get the head gasket that the website selling Pro Lightnings recommends, or should I get something else?

 

Do what the head mfr says, especially if it makes sense. Like if it calls for a Fel-Pro 1010 or 1014.

 

Thanks, I just wanted to make sure if there wasn't something better I should get. I know they recommended a fel-pro, forget which part #, i'll check it out.

 

Here's what they say.

Head Gasket Pro M2300IL 060

oh, and can I resuse my head bolts, with only 12k miles on them?

 

Well that part # may be recomended ,but if the 060 means it is .060" thick, you final compression ratio will be in the toilet.

You'd do well to consider some .015" shim type gaskets
These would result in a cr .5 higher than a felpro .040"

or 1.00 cr higher that if a .060" gasket is used.

Althou you will benefit from tha improved breathing of the
new cylinder heads your compression ratio will be about the same.
which is too low for the camshaft you're using.
These thin .015" gasket will be just as dependable as other
thicker types if * you don't abuse the motor (overheat, detonate)
This is up to you but you do have the heads off and have a choice of gaskets to choice from. The price is the same.
The possible 1.00 difference in final cr will make a difference.
Which heads are you getting any way the cast iron or the alumium?

 

Iron. So, if I get the gasket they recommend I'll still have crappy compression, forget that then.

 

Well is it a .060" head gasket?

If you would take a few measurements on your motor for us
while the heads are off, we could guide you to some possible ways to adust the final cr to something usefull.
All is not lost.

Which cc chamber are you getting?
How thick was the stock head gasket?
Was it a steel shim or a composite gasket?
What is the distance from the highest point on the piston to the top of the block deck when the piston is at TDC?

 

I won't be home till this coming weekend.
I'm getting 64cc ones, not sure about the stock gasket, not sure about it's material either, it left some of it on the block I believe, wouldnt that mean composite?
The height, I'll have to check out.

 

From your pics it appears to be a composite gasket.
A shim gasket comes off clean without sticking.
Just trying to determine your old true compression ratio
and help you get the most out of your new cylinder heads
By getting the new compression ratio as close as ya can to optimum.
What fuel octane do you run or will buy?
Many others will benefit from you experiences on upgradeing
a Goodwrench Motor.

Do you have the tools to measure piston deck cleareance?

A straight edge or level and a set of feeler guages will do
for our purposes.

 

I can get ahold of those tools.

I can get 94 octane across the street, but most places sell 93. I don't mind buying 93 octane, since I barely drive the car anymore.

I could get 50cc heads of the same brand.

 

Ha Hhaa Haa!! 50cc's

That would be a little high.

Ya might want to consider getting the 64 cc heads shaved a bit
to bring the cr close to 10.00:1 say 9.5:1 or better.
This is fine on 93/94 octance gas.

You also want to minimize the total distance between the piston top and head (quench) This helps suppress detonation.

You at least want to avoid this distance being exessive.
Like say with .045" piston deck clearance combined with .040" gasket thickness.
Ideal distance is .040" quench clearance.

Won't be able to figure that all out till ya get the measurements from your motor.

 

do the math but i seriousely doubt you'll lose 1/2 a point in compression going form .039 gastets to .015s. plus the coated gaskets seal much better and allow for differant rates of thermal expansion than shim gaskets, and the shims require a much better surface finish that coated gaskets and are more prone to leakage. i'd follow the recomendations the head maker gives.

 

So, just get a .040 gasket then?

Is, there anything wrong with the Economy Head Gaskets by Fel Pro in Jegs? just says SB Chevy except 305.

There are some Ultra Seal ones .038-.040 compressed thickness, doesn't say the material though.

 

Cast iron heads and cast iron blocks have the same thermal expansion rate.
As long as your heads are flat and the block is flat the gasket will seal.
There is a .5 cr difference between the two.

If you're going to have trouble with a head gasket you will have trouble no matter what the thickness is.

Head gasket problems are caused by overheating and detonation. Always.
The coated gaskets may have their benefits but if you're going to have trouble, then your going to have trouble.
I've never had a shim gasket fail on me yet.
Under high compression ratios, Nitrous Oxide Big blocks
small blocks.

Ede: cut us some slack here, he's already going to be shy on compression and guessing at the final cr is like guessing at bearing clearences.

 

thanks for the info, so one for a 4.100 bore, is that ok? .015 compressed. embossed shim

 

Mark That would be my choice if I was doing the job.

Just make sure the block deck is spotlessly clean.
Clean all your head bolts and coat them with sealer.
Install the shim gasket dry. (no sealers are nessessary)
Torque the bolts down accurately. If you can retorque all the head bolts after it has warmed up and cooled right down.
Like overnight.

Not absolutley nessessary but would be nice.
Inspect the heads for flatness with a straightedge yourself first.
I know they are new but.......

 

One more? Those above I listed were Fel Pro for $20 a piece.

There are some Mr Gasket ones embossed steel shimm, .018-.020 for $18 for a 2 pack.

Why such a huge price difference? Would it be ok to use the Mr. Gasket ones?

 

I don't know. I think the felpro gaskets come 2 to a package
(if they are packaged) If you can afford new cylinder heads
then splerging for the $20 extra if nessessary shouldn't be an issue EH.... They are both good gasket co.s

I'd lean toward the felpro or Detroit Gasket co. or Victor core (Dana)

Mr Gasket make a hell of an header gasket, I've never used their head gaskets.

 

It says $20 each for the fel pro, it says 2pkg for the Mr. Gasket.

 

About reusing the head bolts. I would buy a set of ARP head bolts while you have it apart. For the small extra cost you will have nice new high quality head bolts.

 

 

Small?? there's head stud kits $100 which is a lot,

 

You don't need to buy the head stud kit. They sell a set of head bolts. I know I didn't see them in the Summit catalogue but I picked them up at a local speed shop for 100 CDN which is only about 62.00US.

 

The .015" embossed steel shim Fel-Pro come 1 per package, those are what I have on the '88 right now.
They are only rubber coated on one side though, I thought it was both sides when I bought them, but not so.
I would look into the new Mr. Gasket MLS (multi layered steel) head gaskets. they are coated both sides and need no retorquing. I am switching to those pretty soon, my fel pro's seem to be seeping oil.

 

About retorquing head gaskets,
Do you have to do it right after that first run and cool down?
I never retorqued mine and am thinking maybe thats why they seep a little.
Can I just retorque them now? or is it a one time deal.
thanx

 

I've never heard of a head gasket seeping oil. hummm....
Sounds like a manifold gasket or valve cover gasket if you're getting oil leaking.

Yes you can retorque them.

 

Mark:

If you decide to go with a .038-.040 thickness gasket, felpro has a basic rebuilder gasket (7733PT-2) that will do the job just fine for about 15.00 ea. I have used alot of them for street applications without failure.

 

Its not from the intake or valve cover gaskets. It is a slight oil residue on the ends and corners of the block where the heads don't cover.

 

I highly agree with 88 on this. The .015 gasket will be just what you need. I've never had a problem with them sealing either. I would recommend getting them bare and getting copper coat. Just spray them yourself. Don't forget to chase the head bolt holes in the block and clean them out. This will ensure an accurate reading when torqueing and will keep you from snapping head bolts. You really don't need to by new ones. Yours should do just fine. BUT....If you plan on doing many rebuilds in the future then it would be smart of you to invest in head studs. It will be well worth it!!!

BTW-I can get you those gaskets for 20 bucks (2). Summit only sells them for 20 a piece (fpp-1094). I'll look in the catalog I have and get you the part #.

 

I didn't bother reading through the thread so excuse my ignorance if this has been said already:

You shouldn't be picking head gasket thickness to raise/lower your compression, you should be using them to finalize your quench clearance. This is the distance from the top of the piston, plus deck height, plus gasket thickness

For example my motor:

.015 out of the hole
.050 compressed gasket

quench of .035

You want quench to be in the .030-.045 range

Usually you will have a zero deck and just use head gasket thickness to make your quench....i had to find a thicker gasket because of my piston being out of the hole

 

My heads said to get Fel-Pro 1003 head gaskets. Of course they are $32 a piece

4.166" bore with a .041" compressed thickness. I had a .023" thick gasket in the compression calculator. So my "on paper" compression went from 9.3 to 9.

 

Very good point about the quench height 89!! I didn't even bother to mention it. Mark and I have the same motors. The Deck height I think was around .030 ( deep, they are dished pistons- stock LM-1 bottom end) if I remember correctly. So the Steel shim should put him right round .045 which would be acceptable.

 

Hmm, f-Bird88 has asked me the height from the piston to the top at TDC, is that what you referred to as deck height of .030?

so, you're saying the .015 should put me at .045, which is good right? I just want to make sure my compression won't be too low.

I'll probably put about 2k miles on the car a yr now, so I don't see a thin gasket being a problem for me.

 

Yes mark. Thats the deck height (piston at TDC, measure from piston to top of cylinder bore). I measured mine (the same as yours) and it came out to be around .030", so a .015" gasket will not only put your quench height where it needs to be but will also keep the compression your going for.

 

Would a thicker gasket put me out of the quench I need?

 

Yes It would. I wouldn't go any more than .020" on the gasket thickness. Just go with the steel shim. I'm still lookin for that damn catalog.

 

Do you know the piston dome cc's there No4N?

 

Mark, are you referring to your pistons?
Didn't you figure them to be stock replacements, if so they are dished, I think they have a -13cc dish including the valve reliefs.
Forgive me if I you're talking about something else.

 

Ahh yes, now I remember f-bird88 saying they were 13cc wasn't sure if that was right , thanks.

 

mark, they aren't domed, they are dished, or reversed domed as some manufacturers would put it. Just by looking I would say Its about a 12cc dish. Why do you ask?

 

Sorry, meant dished, not dome. I have a compression calculator program and needed the piston cc value.

With 64cc heads, and the other #s entered with .040 gasket, I'll have 8.7:1 compression.
shaved to 60cc heads I'll have 9.2:1

64cc heads and .015 gasket= 9.3
60cc heads and .015 gasket= 9.7


hmmm, I think I might get them shave some, to go down to 60cc will I need the intake done too?

 

yes you will have to shave the intake or you'll have port alignment problems not to mention bolts holes will be hell. But why not just take this chance to dig into the bottom end instead of destroying the top?? Like I've stated before shaving can not be reversed and IMHO ruins a perfectly good set of heads.

 

I am not 100% sure on this but i dont believe that you can use a head gasket shim as a head gasket

Call the gasket company before trying this

 

The car is sitting out back, no engine lift, guess it can't be too heavy though, but I'm broke and no engine stand either.

How much would decent pistons run me, I see some quite cheap. What else would I need?

 

Its not a head gasket shim. Its a steel shim head gastket and came stock on a couple 350s back in the 70's and 80's. I've run them before with no problems.

 

Mark whats an engine lift for?? I just use the guns

Well I know the position your in. Is there anywhere around there where you could rent one?? I've heard of people doing this. Pistons, rings, main and rod bearings, I would get some ARP rod and main bolts while I was at it. You'll have to get the pistons pressed on the rods. So find a decent machine shop for this. You'll need a Gasket set. As far as pistons I would go with the KB silvolites unless you plan on running boost in the near future. UEM-KB106030-8. These are flat tops. Pins of course are included. These aren't overbore because IMO you don't need to get the motor bored. Hell it only has 12k on it right?

Pistons-$173.39
Rings- total seals are $137.39
Bearings- Clevite 77 -rod- $18.00
-main- $20.95

 

Just a note on reusing head bolts, don't. They're designed as torque once, after that, they're junk no matter how many miles. I've seen a few heads done with reused head bolts and each time blown head gasket. The reused bolts do not torque down correctly. It's all because head bolts stretch a bit when torqued and stressed. It's a few extra dollars for some piece of mind, you can get only the head bolts as I recall, or a complete engine bolt kit if you need.

 

Well, I was thinking, I'll just leave the heads alone, get some .015 gaskets. I plan on pulling the engine next summer anyways, to maybe stroke it, by then my dad will have a shop built with all the tools needed. By then I will have 3-5k miles on the engine at the most, which I would hope that thin gasket could last that long. This sound ok?

 

Slade1, i am with you on getting new head bolts. I tried to tell Mark earlier in this thread to get a set of ARP head bolts when he is swapping heads. Others seem to think no need to do that. But with Marks stock replacement engine I am sure they didn't use any special quality bolts. For $60 US I think it is worth every penny.

 

hmmmm i work at a dealer ship that handles gm and all the master techs say that gm sbc head bolts are NOT a torque-to-yeild bolt. the heads bolts on my car have been used on 2 motors. the first one with about 15k miles on it and i got about 4k on the 383. never had a problem with head gaskets blowing or leaking.