Hey people- i'm about to be getting a decent chunk of change(thank you United States Air Force) and i was looking to put a little money in my 91Z28-

If you had a choice between the following 2 engine/tranny combos- which would you choose-- also, give me some feedback on thee questions--

LS1/T56 Combo from High Performance Salvage for $4700

--or--

ZZ4 w/{fill in the blank intake manifold} /T-56 for $3500(motor)+tranny cost

::QUESTIONS::

which will give me the best performance upgrade?
how hard is it to throw in an LS1?
how much Nitrous will each handle SAFELY/RELIABLY?
what are common problems with each install?
Has anyone had any experience with High Performance Salvage?

Any input is appreciated in advance.. If you have some REALLY good info, please feel free to email it to me at jburroughs@comcast.net You guys ROCK!!

 

I would go with the ZZ4 because it will be cheaper and sound better. SBC. :rockon: It should be an easier swap and you could still use TPI with it if you wanted.

 

ZZ4+T-56 is more expensive than the LS1/T-56

 

But parts (performance) for the LS1 are $$$$$$$$$$$$.

 

ya thats true-- but it'd be bad@$$ to have an LS1 Z28--
anybody else?

 

the ls1 will reqire some custom fabrication to make it fit.

where the zz4 wont

 

which motor(base setup) will be faster?
how much will my TPI setup choke the ZZ4

 

why not just rebuild the tpi, and put some afr's and a stealth on it???

you can buy a stout shortblock for a pretty good price... hell if ya wanted i'd buy a new stock l98 one.. theres a dude running 10's on one with 5,000 time sliips!!! and it's still running strong....

those crate engines aren't what there cut out to be.....

below is a site that sells rotating assemblys for a decent price and they are pretty good tech wise also.....

www.flatlanderracing.com

to me, 3,000 for a zz4 isn't worth it... especially when ya can build a 400hp+ capable shortblock for 1,000...

good luck and i hope it works out for ya

 

i dont want to rebuild the TPI cause its a 205hp 305--
I was thinking the ZZ4 cause i'm not that good at putting an engine together(i.e. heads, cam etc etc..) i dont want to mess it up, i'd rather pay a little more for it to be build by GM themselves-
dont get me wrong, i'm LOVING all the inputs-- this is helpin me out a ton- maybe we can get a 100 posts on this topic- keep em comin..

i'm still waiting to hear from RB83L69(sp?)-- he always has good opinions--

 

BTTT

 

I'm not RB, but:

Lesson #1 from "improving" what the factory did: The cost is more than the sum of the up-front parts.

Lesson #2 from "improving" what the factory did: The more you deviate from what the factory did, the greater the slope of Lesson #1.

How much will the TPI choke a ZZ4? A lot! By the time you upgrade the TPI to feed the ZZ4 properly, you'll have the basic ECM, harness and fuel rails left - everything else will have been replaced. The cost will be about equal to the ZZ4. But, I know one guy who has done it, and runs 13.0 sea level-equivilent times. Oh, the original crate engine parts that still remain unmodified are the pistons, rings, rods, crank, & bearings. What he's spent on this car would have bought him an LS-1 4th gen.

 

ttt, come on people

 

what's your budget...3,500 or 4,700?

if you can afford the LS1 combo then you can get a very nice sbc that will outperform.

between the two i'd go with the LS1, however the LS1 is alot more money and you could do alot with 4,700 unlike 3,500.

unless you get the LS1 for a more reasonable setup like 2,500 i wouldn't bother. sure they are really nice engines and adapt well to mods, but their mods are very expensive and they don't hold up well to poweradders. especially nitrous.

if i were going gm i'd stick with the fastburn 385 or 383 and save up for a nice intake like a stealth ram or miniram if you can afford it.

 

thanks Kandied- i appreciate the info-

I dont really have a budget so to speak-- i'm sure i'll be putting a lot of money into it eventually- i just want the most bang for the buck, ya know?

any more suggestions??

::EDIT:: whatever engine i go with has to work well with the T-56 as that will be in the car--

 

you have to understand that the more power you get the more money in "extras" will amount.

if your looking for the most affordable power your going to have to go with a sbc deal. the lS1 setup will cost you alot in custom things and the power you gain isn't worth it.

so unless your getting a deal stay sbc. you can do alot of good things with the sbc and keep a little amount of money in the wallet.

 

isnt the LS1 a SBC block? i dont understand what the difference is you're telling me- i know the LS1 will be more expensive since its the "corvette/98+ camaro" motor- but i think it'd be bad@ss to have an LS1 in my 91Z. besides, that fastburn 385 is 4,000 ALONE-- not including the T-56 cost- so theres about 6 grand, just for the parts, not including labor AND misc. pieces i'll need.

I found an LS1/T-56 combo with 20K miles for 4,000.
So say 500 for the custom motor mounts etc.. and maybe 600 for the local performance shop to put it in, thats a lot less than the fastburn 385- and i'll have an LS1 Z28.

any inputs on this? you guys rock by the way :hail:

 

Its goina be a lot more than $600 to have somone swap in an LS-1 AND a T-56 into a thirdgen.

you can also make more power, hands down, with a simple small block combo that uses parts readilly available. the Ls-1 is not exactly a "universal one size fits all" like the rest of the pre-93 blocks are. even the Lt-1 has more adaptability than the Ls-1 when it comes to standard parts.

and on top of all of that, the Ls-1 is still a stock motor to boot. you wont be any faster than any other Ls-1 T-56 combo out there unless you spend massive amounts of cash on just simple bolt ons. dont forget cars that come with LS-1 motor usually have better gearing stock, and better suspension parts. this all factors in. just adding an LS1 to your car wont make it faster than any other stock 98+ camaro, without upgrading suspension and rear end components, then you gota worry about parts breakage INSIDE the motor like all the rest. they dont handle power adders very well at all, and forget about swapping in forged components... by that point you will have spent more money than buying a used 2000 SS camaro, no worse than a used Ls-1 motor right?

point is, you can go faster with less money by sticking to older more universal stuff. no ones telling you to go crate, you mentioned that yourself. maybe spread the money out over an L98 block, put some into forged crank / pistons, some into heads, cam, and a stealth ram. then either spray or throw a D1-SC on it. thats an easy 500-600 RWHP right there. take some of the "leftovers" and put it into your gearing, your suspension, and if you must, a T-56. remember those things are in stock condition too, they break like any other factory part would under abuse. and what your goina wind up with is NOT a factory engine.


gota pay to play

 

As far as the Fastburn 385- will my a/c and other accessories brackets work with it. If i have to buy all new accessories, its going to be a lot more expensive than just the 4100 for the crate motor itself. What intake is recommended for the Fastburn? Is a ported TPI Plenum/Runners still too restrictive for it?
Which T-56 will work best with it? LT1, LS1? Retrofit? D&D Performance?

this is my possible combo theory--

Fastburn 385 w/ either 750 Demon Carb, or{fill in the blank F.I. intake} HSR w/30pph injectors?
T-56
4th Gen Rear w/3.73 or 4.10 gears
Alum Driveshaft-

 

keep looking into it more....

you could get a 383 shorblock and purchase your heads, cam, intake and only be a couple hundred more then the 385 crate.

there are so many options out there, but to give you an example. the amount of power you can get from a fastburn 383 with a matching miniram intake and a good cam it would cost you close to 7,000 on top of the pretty LS1 and you would still need exhaust and a few other things to even catch up.

LS1 is simply a wow factor that isn't that uncommon anymore. certainly you should do what you like, but until the LS1 aftermarket becomes cheaper it's not really worth it.

 

I would go with the LS1/T56 combo.
My friend safely sprays 150shot into his stock block and it's fine.

 

he's skating by then........

 

I've got a budget RS... around $4200 ... FOR THE WHOLE THING (car, engine, tranny, paint, rims, stereo) and I'm around 320 HP... MAYBE you should buy the parts ...pay someone to put it all together and use the extra money for ... WHATEVER you want. $1200 for a good set of heads. $300 for a cam ... KEEP the TPI, and upgrade the runners/injectors/chop/throttle intake $300 T-56 $2000 $400 exhaust... and with the right COMBINAITON you will stomp LS1's and ZZ4's
Just my $.02

 

that all sounds good-

A couple more insights from me--
I dont want to rely on the bottle for power- This has to be a VERY reliable engine/tranny combo as its my only means of transportation. N20 is nice for that extra .5 at the track, but i dont want to use it often(if at all) So as far as using it with a stock LS1-- I dont think its a good idea.
Also, I want to stay fuel injected for the reliablility/driveability purpose. Plus its just personal preference-


How about this engine combo--
(+/- prices)
383 Shortblock-$3000
Trickflow Heads-$1200
Holley Stealth Ram
w/fuel rails/AFPR -$750(from thunderracing.com)
Good Cam-$200-250?

Total- +/- $5200 for the engine-
Expected HP/Tq? 480/480??

Any other comments?

 

sounds pretty decent of an idea..........head choice is very personal and very important to the setup.

just be sure to build your car around the heads and you'll be fine. making sure to match up the cam, intake, heads will make for great power.

few things to consider.

how much more will it cost to machine the heads to get that much flow?

how many more "extras" will your car need to support that power. (fuel system, ignition, cooling, etc.) basically all the little things that really add up.

will your existing drivetrain hold up? (rear, trans, etc.) if your pushing almost 500+ at the crank you have to figure at least high 300 at the wheel........that's when alot of stock pieces will break.

if you think it will cost 5,000 to do what you want you had better plan on at least another 2,000 in extras to get you on the road and keep your car reliable. as long as you plan well you should do just fine.

i think your getting on the right track now. good luck.

 

You'll get more than .5 sec with a decent shot of spray at the track (100+ HP).

 

depends on what level of the game your at. sure with a 200 rwhp L98 you'll gain a little more than .5 with 100. but if your running 110+ which is what a 400 rwhp should do easily then i would say a .5 would easily be expected.

not to mention nitrous is pretty expensive, you go above a 100 shot and the bottle won't go very far. so you really won't be able to use it much anyway unless you like filling up as much as you pump gas.

 

I don't know about an L98 but a almost stock LG4 will pick up a complete second w/ a 125 hp shot...seen it done. As for being expensive...it's not that bad unless you go to the strip every week and run as many times as possible. A full bottle around here costs about $40. I dont think its that bad for the occasional gain. TMO. Its probably not for everybody though.

 

If it were me, I'd build up a stout 350 short block and top it off with Vortec heads, Comp XE274 cam (or if that's too wild for you an XE268 will do), and an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, and Holley 750cfm 4150. That combo will push you into the mid 12's with traction and good suspension. It's also cheap to build and you'll be pushing a little over 400hp.

 

kfoley-- i dont want to go carb- i want fuel injection as per the earlier posts from me..

Will my LB9 accessories work with the 383 shortblock? i dont really know much about how all of that stuff works together.

as far as n20- i dont want it to be my primary power adder-
i might throw a 50-100 shot just for that extra holeshot- but other than that, no.

A 383 stroker is just a 350 bored .030 with a 400 crank-- so will all 350 headers work with it?

whats the best fuel injected intake manifold for say idle-6000 powerband(or whatever the 383 likes)

Kandied- any more suggestions??
anyone else?

 

you can't ask for the best when your working on a budget....

a 383 is more expensive. if your on a budget build a 350 the best you can with what you have available. a stealth ram will be your best bang for the buck while a miniram will be the top setup.

also, understand that using nitrous just for whole shot is extremely expensive in that this is the area where you break things. if anything you want to wait until your around 2500-3,000 rpms before you engage so as not to put such a strain.

you have alot of work ahead of you. you need to figure out exactly what you want power wise and be realistic with your budget. i think aiming for a well built 350 with a 350-400 horse crank power that's forged would be very possible. you could then use nitrous or whatever power adder you like and you'd be right around 400 horse when needed. this way you won't have to invest in such other expensive "extras" so soon and can wait until your ready.

just to run nitrous safely alone your looking at a minimum of 1200-1500. that's almost half your budget there so i'd try to forget about that for awhile and do it Naturally aspirated.

 

I can't help you out much with fuel injection, I'm a carb guy myself. As far as the accessories go, they should work just fine. You can reuse the headers also.

 

TTT, any more suggestions? moderators? RB? Kandied?

 

is the TPIS Miniram considered the best fuel injected manifold out there? is it smog legal?

 

I've enjoyed reading people's input on this one... the original premise (LS1/LT1 swaps) is not something that I have experience or expertise in.

I'd think that you could go alot faster for the same money with a Gen 1 SBC than either a LT1 or LS1. In a few years, that might be radically different, if LS1 motors become common enough and parts for them come down in price; that's a damn goo dmotor, you can tell that they took what they've learned from the SBC and applied it to that new design. But for what a used LS1 will set you back today, I know I can build a Gen 1 SB that will smoke it, for less money; and certainly less hassle. Might not get the same gas mileage at that price, but I'm certain I can make it go faster.

In one of these cars, the MiniRam would probably be my choice of induction system. I've dealt with the Accel ProRam before, in a chassis with hood clearance; it was excellent, and I would do it again in the right circumstance, but it will absolutely not go in one of these cars without at least a 4" hood, and even then it would require a restrictive air cleaner. It would be a problem even with an elbow and a horixontal-draft TB. Either one of those intakes should be able to support close to 600 HP, with the right motor underneath it.

I would certainly not use a SuperRam, not least because of the PITA factor. The grief/benefit ratio is too low. Plus, it tops out at a little over 400 HP, and retains some of the TPI acoustic-tuning effect that warps the torque curve.

The MiniRam is not emissions legal, in that it has no provision for EGR. However, in places that don't have a visual, there's no reason it can't be made to pass a sniffer test.

The Stealth Ram fits in a nice little niche. For those who don't know exactly what it is, a few years ago, Holley made what they called a "Street Ram" or something like that, that was that very base with plates on top for 2 390 or 450 4-barrels. It wasn't really a go-fast part, as anybody that's ever tried to get something like that to actually work will know; it was really aimed at the street rod crowd, you know, those people that just want stuff sticking out of their hood that looks cool. All they did was add injector bungs to it, and created a plenum for a horiz-draft TB to slap on top of it. It tops out at about 450 HP or thereabouts of flow. It'll put a Gen 1 motor up into seriously modded LT1 or lightly modded LS1 territory, but it ends there.

The thing about the numbers you get with nitrous, is that it is an additive thing, not a mulitplier. So yeah, you put a 125 shot on a 140 HP LG4, you almost double the HP; you better go a second and a half, or more, faster. Put that 125 shot on a Honda, it'll go 3 seconds faster. Put it on a 6000 HP fuel dragster, you won't even notice it at all. Put it on a 400 HP motor, a half second is a little optimistic maybe but believable.

I'm not a big fan of nitrous, just because it's only useful at the track. I'd rather have as much as possible under my right foot at all times; expressway ramps, passing situations, whatever; not just something that I can only use in very limited circumstances. It's fine to add to an already healthy motor that sees track duty but it's not a substitute for atmospheric flow on the street.

Enough rambling. My fingers are tired.

 

that's about how i would have put it.

when i had my choice even when i can pick up the LS1 combo for 2-2500 i chose to go with the standard setup. main reason was price of additions. in the end i spent about the same amount of money either way but i have alot more horsepower without even needing the power adders. i think the biggest thing as well was the fact that i can add my power adders and make a crazy amount of power and really save some money.

sure the LS1 is a great motor but the parts just aren't cheap enough to reap the results..........in the end it's more of a wow factor right now. that doesn't mean that you shouldn't go through with it though if that's what you want. in the end it's all preference but you have to keep a goal in mind. just like the gen 1 after a point the LS1 will take just as much fuel and cost alot more.

as far as the SR i still think that it's more of a "bang for your buck" intake. if you can afford the Miniram you'll be happy. there isn't really a bad use for a miniram unlike some of the other intakes. unfortunately it just costs alot more then any of the others.

good luck.

 

Actually www.Thunderracing.com has motor mounts to install an LS1 into our cars. And spearco (I think) has the painless wiring harness to make the swap as easy as possible.

Also I believe the ZZ4 isn't capable of passing emissions. This may be a factor depending on where you live.

 

mmmm--opinions-- i love em, you guys rock!!

ok ok-- hmm
so heres what i might have decided on and tell me if you think i'll be happy w/it-

I'll be getting a little over 8 grand from the military but i dont think it'd be smart to "blow" it all on one engine-
(i'll also be getting around 3 grand every year for the next 3)

anyway--
I was thinking i'd just go ahead and get everything ready for the new motor, until i can save up for it. i'd rather pay off my bills and stuff, and be able to save a lot more of my paycheck, than get a really nice motor- ya know?

So i think i'll just go with this::
T-56 swap(sell my T-5 swap stuff)
4th gen rear with a 3.73 or 4.10 gear swap(which is better with the t-56?)
4th gen rims all around since the new rear end will make my 3rd gens look silly, IMO

what do you guys think- then, i'll have everything pretty much ready for the new motor-- and i can concentrate on planning for the new motor etc..

RB?
kandied?
anyone else have inputs??

:hail:

 

With the big 6th gear that the T56 has 4.11's are the way to go.

 

right on kfoley- my thoughts exactly
i'm thinking either 3.73s or 4.10s

any other thoughts on the previous post?

 

ttt

 

I wouldn't do either combo. With the price you are going to pay for the LS1/T56 swap, you could build you own 350 based engine to be running 11s N/A, and have money left over to buy a trans and rear to handle the power. You would be much faster then either of the combos you mentioned for the same price!

 

Ive heard a lot of people saying that they could build something thats faster for cheaper.

Well...back it up

Ive been looking into this same situation cant make up my mind.
So post a theoretical combo or something. Lets see what yall got...If you can show me something that runs 11's with a n/a 350, you hooked me in.

 

I like the Ram Jet 350. Look at how small the cam is. Just think of the possibilities.
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=120&pid=463

 

Something I've always considered appealing about the LS1 is that it's aluminum.
If removing weight from the front axle of your car is something that sounds good to you, then the LS1 has that going for it.
I read a post in the Engine Swap forum by a guy who did it, and he said he had to get new front springs, that's how much lighter it is.

 

I talked to these people about a year ago:
Precision Engine Rebuilders
3225 North Freeway
Houston, Texas 77009
Herb 800-275-7371
herb@precisionengine.com

383 stroker, assembled with 87+ roller block supplied by him, Eagle cast crank & SIR rods, fully balanced & ready to use with a LT1 flywheel. He offered me a good warranty too. $1699 + 155 shipping. This guy was knowledgable and seemed enthused to be working on something fun. I also got feedback from thirdgen folks who had nothing but praise for the guy.
I thought this was a helluva deal & planned to buy it until I ran across a rebuilt 400sbc from an individual for ~$1000; this is another option for you as well, especially if you're not in a hurry, search the local sales ads and you might run across a good deal. LT1 intake conversion or a Stealth Ram are probably the most cost effective fuel injected intakes, I would budget about $800 for each to cover everything. For a lower budget, Pro Topline or Iron Eagle (~$700 assembled) heads would work good, or save a little more for AFR's. There are more posts on here than you would probably read for different intakes & cams but do some research and develop your best combo based on your needs. This base engine if completed right should stomp just about any LS1 you run across if the rest of the car is set up for the power. Think of the car as a whole system, build accordingly and your end result will be a lot more gratifying.

 

The LS1 is ~200 lbs lighter than a typical SBC IIRC. Good weight savings, but price is a bit of a factor. You can build a more powerful SBC for cheaper, but that's just MHO and I'm a poor college student....

 

I'm on a budget too, that's why I'm building a 383 for mine. One piece at a time.
But if I had 10 thou to put down today, I'd be thinking hard about the LS1.

 

I went and checked out precisionengine.com . They have some really good looking stuff in there. In perticular they have a good sounding 350, making 360 hp and goes for about 1800. Im sure you could find better and cheaper but hey, its a start. If you keep looking around ( like i am right now ) im sure you will find something to you liking UNDER your price range.