IN regards to my previos post, the valvetrain tap is now gone. A set of stock rockers and the stock valve covers fixed THAT problem.

Now onto a whole new can of worms. I decided to take it out for a test drive to see how it was running. I pull onto the road and floor it. STILL dog slow. It backfired everytime i tried to "stab" the gas pedal. It would not backfire if i slowly rolled into, but regardless, it was still really slow. On top of that, it was blowing alot of smoke.

So i get back to my house and rev the motor hard to make sure the smoke isn't coming out of the tailpipes. Through the cowl i see flames rising up. I quickly shut the car off and pop the hood, and empty a fire extinguisher on the flames.

They were coming right off the headers, and out the spark plug wire sleeves on both sides.

so now for my theory, and then you can tell me what the real problem is. I think the distributer is off a tooth. When i put it in, it was facing just in front of cyl.3 which i assumed was no1 because all other positions were wayy from each other. However i did have to slightly adjust the oil pump to get it to drop. I think this caused the combustion proccess to take place in the headers instead of the cylinder. This would account for both the car's lack of power, and the headers being hot enough to burn their coating off.

Give me your thoughts, suggestions, and troubleshooting ideas please. Before i do anything i gotta clean the engine bay of the sulfur from the fire extuinguisher. i would do that now, but it's dark, and i wanna get a carb hat first. I know i'm gonna be needing new wires as these are most likely charred now.

man, i'm so out of patience for this thing...

Help,
Eric

 

This has been covered before. The distributor can't be off a tooth. It's either in right or 180º out.
Is it possible that you had oil spilled on your headers (from while adjusting the valves) and that is what caught fire?
What color is the smoke?
Try removing your distributor, rotate it 180º and the drop it back in. Hope that helps.

 

i'm 100% positive its not 180 out. how is it that i can't be off a tooth. If i had to rotate the oil pump slightly to make it drop, then it could be off couldn't it?

Eric

 

your car wouldnt run with it 180* out...................where is your timing set at?

 

ok i just re-read what you said Eric............there are no teeth for it to be off "a tooth"...................are you sure you dont mean your timing is off?

when you turn the distrib to make it line up into the oil pump driveshaft you need to compensate your ignition timing....................reset your timing

 

i did not check the timing. I have a mark on the fire wall i just line up with the cap whenever i pull the distributer.

tomorrow morning i'm gonna go get another fire extinguisher and start it to check the timing. I guess what i find out then will determine where to look next...

keep the help coming...

Eric

 

So your eye is calibrated to +/- 1 deg? That $$ you saved not buying a timing light will help buy new plug wires.

Retarded timing = super hot header primaries = flaming plug wires.

 

last i checked 1* doesn't cause a header to light on fire. I have a timing light, however, the past 13 times i've pulled and reinstalled my distributer, my mark on the firewall has been right on the money. I'm not convinced as of yet that it isn't on the money right now. Unless it's off a tooth, but evidently there are no teeth...so somehow i guess i can rule that out...i guess.

 

what do you mean there are no teeth? go out and pull your distro, there is a gear that is driven by the cam, gears have teeth on them, last i checked! if that is infact one "tooth" off, you will have all kinds of backfiring problems and spuddering and possible ignition inside of header primaries.

get your timing light out and check your timing, you should always do that anytime you pull the distributor. if it's off, go to TDC, then put your distro in facing #1. got it?

 

i'm aware of the teeth, but as mentioned earlier in this post, there are no teeth. Hence my confusion. I know there are teeth, but there are no teeth. make sense? ok, sorry, i really appreciate everyones help so far, don't mean to be a smartass...

I'm planning on doing exactly what you just said btw...

Eric

 

Why are you pulling your distributor 13 times. That seems a little excessive.

 

think about what you just said

you dont measure your ignition timing by "teeth"

yes the gears have teeth, but you can turn your distributor when you loosen the hold down without turning the rotor..........thus altering your timing by varying the distance from the rotor tip to the tower on the cap

THATS WHY IGNITION TIMING IS MEASURED IN DEGREES

IGNITION TIMING IS STATED AS HOW MANY DEGREES AFTER CRANKSHAFT ROTATION AFTER EACH CYLINDER REACHES TDC THAT THE PLUG HAS FIRED ON EACH CYLINDER

8 degrees advanced= cylinders reaching TDC and then after 8 more degrees of crankshaft rotation the plug fires

 

let me get one thing straight- you did all this work to your car and you can not set ignition timing

 

rotating the cap is only going to fix the problem to an extent. if and only if the cap can rotate far enough to fire on the correct cylinder. HOWEVER, if the distro is positioned "1 tooth off", then you must pull the distro and reinsert in the correct position because no matter how much you turn the cap, if it is "1 tooth off", it will not fire correctly, zupman is right on the money about this.

my car wouldn't fire properly, it would sputter and do all kinds of funny things when you tried to rev it. i went to TDC and pulled the cap, the rotor was facing the #8 tower, that would be "1 tooth off" i am not trying to be a smart@$$, simply trying to explain what zupman and i are stating.

let us know how it "turns" out zupmanz28...

 

I dont really see where this comment was nessesary. The distributer has been pulled multiple times over the past two years for various reasons...different intakes, cams head swap, swapping distributers, all sorts of stuff.

mw66nova has pretty much summed up my rebuttal...

keep the help coming.
Eric

 

I have the same problem. I had valvetrain tap, then my timing is screwed up the same as yours. It is *** slow, then if you try to get on it, or you're under a load (hill) it backfired through the intake. Sometimes smoke would come through the console.

Anyways, if you fix it, let me know whats up. Looks like you only got retarded timing if the headers are being combustion chambers. i may have mine too advanced. The distributor they got for me seems to have endless advance. They changed springs on it and checked it with a timing light...freakin 58 degrees (I was there).

The bastards at the shop have had my car since october, and they still can't figure out this problem. They are telling me i have a worn cam lobe...

--Dan

 

****.... Well, I wrote a big explanation on how distributors work, but I screwed up and it's gone, now. Suffice it to say that so long as the timing is correct, there is no installing a distributor "a tooth off." You may want to reposition the gear so that the distributor is not physically prevented from being put in the correct position, but if you are getting the timing you want, you're done. So double check your timing and ensure that it is not running too retarded - if the piston doesn't burn all of the fuel before it gets into the headers, then you would have extremely hot headers.

If you aren't using a timing light, you should. If the timing reads correct, don't play with the distributor any more.

If you have an electronic distributor, there is more to it because you can put the plugs on incorrectly and trick the computer's knowledge of piston position, but you still can't install the distributor a tooth off.

The only thing that can be installed "a tooth off" is your cam. If the valve events are such that the combustion stroke isn't complete before the exhaust valves open, you could be getting some of the heat from the unburned fuel.

Chris

 

Agreed. It doesn't matter what tooth you've got the distributor installed on, as long as the case is turned as required to compensate and the wires are correct for it. I've run one 180* off before, but it didn't matter. There wasn't much room to adjust timing before the vac advance canister hit things, but the timing could be set correctly. Sure, it looked goofy and the plug wires "seemed" like they were all in the wrong place, but they were correct for the position of the rotor.

 

Obviously, because twelve wasn't quite engough.

Beg, borrow, or buy a timing light, then set teh ignition timing the RIGHT way. It won't matter where the distributor rotor is pointing, as long as the correct plug wire is adjacent to the rotor when the coil fires, and that they are in the correct order, of course.

Then again, don't take what I say as Gospel. I'm the moron that spelled "rotor" backward - twice!

 

ahh yes, now THAT is understandable. I've been trying to figure out how to put that into words since i started this post. If i didn't have the distributer on the same tooth as i did when i pulled it, it could explain why my timing mark on the firewall didn't work. Although as of now i'm still trying to get all the fire extuinguisher **** out of the engine bay, and i haven't checked it yet.

Keep this flowing...if nothing else it'll be a good explanation of how timing works....

Eric

EDIT: vader i've got a timing light. As stated before i didn't check it after i dropped the distributer back in. In the previous 12 times, my mark on the firewall had worked perfectly. When i had to turn the oil pump this time to make it drop, i should have taken the initive to check it, that is granted. However i didn't and now i may be paying for it.

Hell, we don't even know if this is the problem yet. just for arguments sake lets say my timing is indeed correct. Where else should i be looking? I had been adjusting rockers earlier, so there was some oil on the headers (not a ton, but enough to make a little smoke).

 

Eric- no offense was meant

it was a simple question

 

Correction: Advanced means before top dead center not after. The plug fires X amount of degrees (X being what intial timing you set) before the piston reaches TDC. Hence the problem with too much timing and spark knock!

 

Yea, Vader is right. You should make sure the palindrome setting is correct too.

 

well if header paint is burning it wouldnt be the first time. say what kinda coating is on those things? My hedmans came with black paint that incinerated the first 2 seconds of my engine running.

now what else could cause hot headers? a lean condition right? also a super rich condition, you mentioned smoke right? what else? retarded timing ? not all timing lights are acurate you know, i have 2 one says im @ 45* total the other says 50* but both say 15 Initial... somtimes it pays to double check those instruments, i had one bounce around i thought camshaft was walking causing the timing to bounce, turned out it was the MSD multi spark throwing the light off.

on other notes if your headers are catching fire then maybe somthing spilled on them, while you were working maybe they got oil all over them. happened to me too, in fact my motor had a TON of smoke pouring off it from where i filled the oil pan through the intake lifter valley. also check your plug wires if they get frayed the spark can jump to ground and cause a fire too.

just some ideas, get creative see if there is ANYTHING suspicious on that thing. somtimes its somthing so stupid...

 

Better get it out fast, some of the agents used in extinguishers are highly corrosive, purple K is one of the more common agents and is very harmful. I like halon extinguishers, expensive, but no harmful chemicals left behind.

 

Well if you have a pre '89 TPI ,the tube going from the cold start injector into the fuel rail could be leaking. Check all of the injectors for leaks, fuel lines, regulator, schrader valve on the RH fuel rail, etc.

 

I like Vaders response...you can have the dist. anywhere you want...you just move the wires so the # 1 plug is at TDC....the dist. cant be off but the firing order can be...make sence?

 

Riley, that does make sense, although i wasn't aware of it before.

I got all the fire extinguisher crap outta there finally. Took a couple cans of degreaser before it was totally gone, but it's gone.

EVERY plug wire was burned, so i just put a new set on. After work i'm gonna clean up the carb and put it back on, then start her up and see whats going on with the timing.

The coating i had on there was POR-20. Up until now the stuff had been holding up pretty well. It lost it's color a little bit, but it didn't seem to be burning off. It's been on there for about 5 months.

Eric

 

Warning: do not do this on a computer injected engine. If the #1 plug wire is not connected to the correct electrode, the computer will *think* that the piston is in a certain position. It will then *tell* the injector to fire at an incorrect time. This actually may not cause any noticeable problems, but the injectors will be firing at a closed valve and will not achieve the same level of atomization that it would if they were firing correctly.

I'm not sure if this is how the system works for your TPI cars, but I know that this is how it works in fuel injected mustangs.

Chris

 

No, that's not how it is on a TPI car. There is no reference to the ECM to tell it where #1 cyl is, just a pickup to tell it when to fire. The LT1's on the other hand, are SFI like the 5.0 Ford's, and they have a different setup to tell when the engine is on TDC of #1, and the distributor is on the front of the engine.

 

Correct..and I just changed the optispark on my 94 today What a PITA....No timing to set..just line up the gears in the opti with the shaft out the timing cover. Cant put it on wrong..it will only go on one way on my 94....

 

speed Demon 750Dp, no fuel injection, no computer

Eric

 

Yeah, those Opticrap distributors are a PITA, and expensive, too! I didn't like having to take off the water pump, etc to do it! I didn't make any money on the first one, but I will on the next!


Anyway, zupman, seeing that you have a vacuum advance distributor, you will likely need to have the rotor pointing the right way, or you'll run out of travel before you get it in time. Put me down for another vote for making sure you check the timing EVERY time you loosen the bolt for the dist.! The only GM engine I've seen you can just "drop it in and be ok" on are the 4.3, 305, and 350 Vortec's. They only have a cam sensor in the distributor (determines when #1 is firing) and the spark is fired off the crank signal. They have a different dist. hold-down that puts it where it needs to be, as long as you line the rotor up with the correct mark that they give you on the dist.

Good luck, and keep us updated on how things go!

 

UPDATE:

i put a fresh set of wires on it today and fired it up to check timing. It was where it should have been. 12* initial, 42* total. Now granted, this is not optimal, but it's not to the point where it would be firing out the exhuast.

When removing the old wires, i noticed something VERY strange. Every single plug wire burned in the exact same location, 2" up from the plug boot. What makes this even stranger is that i have DEI flame resistant wire sleeves that go 8" up each wire, meaning the fire had to of started at the wire, not the header. I'm thinkin now that the headers were never even on fire, i was just seeing the flames coming up out of the sleeves. It was dark, and then there was fire exiguinsher crap everywhere, so i can't be sure.

What in the hell would cause a spark plug wire to just magically lite on fire? what would cause all 8 of them to light in the same place? I did change the spark plugs just prior to all this. i went from an autolite 3924, to an autolite 3926 (two steps hotter). But from my limited knowledge of spark plugs, that doesn't seem like it would cause soemthing like this to happen...

Eric

 

check your valve timing again.....when you are adjusting the valves if you tighten a valve too much it will hang open and not seat and you'll 1)lose a ton of vacuum 2)car will backfire, hesitate, etc

that doesn't explain your fire but might be relevent

 

checked vacuum, 11" at idle...thats about normal for my cam

Eric

 

bumpin it up to the top...

any ideas on what causes 8 plug wires to catch fire in the same exact spot?

Eric

 

thats very odd. maybe all of them got oil on them from the rocker arms spraying them while the valve cover was off?

maybe there is a spark jumping from the plugwire in the same spot on each one?

maybe the headers got red hot and the heat burned them all because they are all really close to the headers in that spot?

just throwing out idea. i have no clue.
my taylor plugwires were all getting burnt in the same spot, but the reason then was obvious, they all touched the header in the same spot. i changed over to 90* boots so they wouldnt touch... no more problems...

 

Improper plugs.

 

improper plugs as in their too hot? That i my first thought, but i thought that would be too simple....

 

I don't know about improper plugs causing the wires to catch on fire !?!?!


But since you did install different rockers etc, I'd look there. Call me simple, but when something goes wrong, I always go back to the last thing changed and work from there.

Make sure all your grounds are nice and tight, and getting good contact with bare metal. I've seen WAY too many weird things happen on vehicles when the grounds weren't right.


As for the distributor... YES you CAN get the distributor a "tooth" off. Meaning, the teeth where the distributor gear mates to the cam gear is now in a different place than it was before. But unless you are a GOOD ways off, AND this can only happen in the oil pump driveshaft moved a good bit, you can ADJUST for this difference by simply moving the distributor to adjust the timing, but now the cap is in a different spot relative to where it was originally...clear as mud?

And yes, as long as you have it so the rotor is pointing to the terminal on the dist cap where the #1 spark plug wire is installed, and the motor is at or near TDC #1, the engine will run.

If it were me, I'd go back to square one. Pull the distributor, you obviously have enough practice

Rotate the engine until you are one TDC #1 cylinder. I always use a bolt or piston stop to do this, but that's just me. Remember, if you don't check to make sure that the #1 piston is at the top of the cylinder when the timing marks are lined up, you may be at TDC #6.

Now orientate the distributor how you want it to sit in the car, and standard on HEI, is the #1 plug terminal is facing the front of the engine on the right of center. Now when you have it ( out of the car ) the way you want it to sit, simply look at the bottom of the distributor gear and notice how the "notch" in the bottom of the gear is facing. Now shine a flashlight down into the distributor hole in the engine, and notice how the corresponding "notch" on the oil pump driveshaft is facing. Use a long screwdriver and move it to where you need it to be...REMEMBER, don't try to get it perfectly lined up with the dist gear, as when you install the distributor, and the dist gear starts to mesh with the cam gear, the distributor will turn a bit before seating all the way...this is normal.


Me personally, when I Set TDC #1, I turn the balancer to where I want the initial timing to read INSTEAD of 0 degrees on the timing mark...for example 10 degrees BTDC. And then do everything the same and drop the distributor in. I do this, and I'm almost always VERY close to my desired iniital advance setting on start up.

Now install the wires, and fire it up. First thing, get a timing light on it.

If it still runs like crap, you NEED to go back and adjust the rockers. EASIEST way is to do it running. They make clips that keep oil from going everywhere, I personally use an old valve cover set that I cut the tops out of. I can still get to the rocker nuts, but the oil doesn't go everywhere.

My personal preference on street cars is to loosen the nut until it starts to "clack". Then tighten it slowly until it JUST goes quiet. Then back it off until it JUST starts to make noise again, then tighten 1/2" turn.

Methods vary, this is mine, and has worked for me.

YMMV.



Hope you get it running good soon.

HTH

 

i've already ruled out timing. I fired it back up and checked. 12 initial, 42 total. Not optimal, but not far enough off to cause something like this to happen.

For the life of me i can't understand how people can possibly lash rockers while the engine is running. Between the sound of the exhuast, the cooling fan, and the carb sucking in air i can't hear anything no matter how much i loosen or tighten. The only difference i can tell, is when i get too tight, the engine starts to die.

Personally i don't think incorrect valve lash is the problem here. Vaccuum was good as well at 11" (comp xe274, thats about normal for this cam)

Bad grounds might be something to look into, i had the back strap off when the engine was apart...and the front strap that normally goes to the battery isn't all tight on the body...(battery is now in the hatch)


Eric

 

I've seen the rockers adjusted once with the engine running, the clicking is very loud, and that is with a quiet gear drive going as well.

 

Taliban....they did it!

 

I'd give an exhaust obstuction a thought, pluged cat, collapsed muffler, something. Fire could come from high resistance met when the chambers aren't emptying out like they should.

Been there, done that.

 

That must be the MOST retarded (pardon the pun) thing I have heard in a while. "No matter how much you turn the distributor it willll still be a tooth off" ?? "it will not fire correctly!" ?? What ??? A tooth off of WHAT ? Your mark on the firewall ? LMAO Get the *** outta here man.... lol This ****'s too funny.

 

Have you checked and double checked your firing order ? The car running very slow combined with the fact that your headers are on fire could point to that.