just curious as to whether anyone thinks that a 350 +0.030 with a 3.875 crank and 6" rods (basically a SB 396) or a std bore 400 with a 4" crank and 6" rods (427) would be very streetable. don't worry about cost. i'm pretty sure its possible, just wondering if that many cubes in a small block are streetable

 

Yeah it is. The biggest factor in streetablility with one of those would be the heads/cam combo. You'd have to keep compression down around 10.1 or so to use pump gas, and you'd want the cam to pull decent vacuum. Of course everyone's definition of streetability is different; for this post I'm assuming "streeability" means pump gas and decent operation from vacuum-powered accessories.

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Base: 89 Iroc-Z LB9 auto 2.73 posi
Exh: 3" Dynomax muffler, 3" Pipe in place of cat
Ign: GMPP 8MM wires, Accel cap&rotor, AC Plugs
Fuel: Cleaned and flow-matched injectors, afpr, !air pump&diverter valve
Sound: Clarion deck, Kicker speakers and amps
Suspension: KYB Shocks, BMR Strut Tower Brace
Misc: TB Bypass, Synthetic Oil, Flexlite Transmission cooler,
free mods, flow tech headers on the way,
engine swap and 4th gen seats in the works...

 

i was basically wondering if it would go more than a few thousand miles or if that was too much sh*t in a small package

 

I built a 11:1 434 with AFR 227's for a fellow that drives it daily. 4” stroke with a 6” rod (1.5 r/s),, which is about the same rod/stroke ratio as the popular 3.75 stroke with 5.7” rods (1.52). We used a sonic checked 2 bolt production block with studs,, no filler in it. Pretty big hydraulic roller,, yet mild in the 434. It’s a fricking torque monster!!! However, the crankshaft and pistons can get pretty expensive. If someone is not going to run nitrous, a cast crank 406, with a production 2 bolt (thoroughly checked) with main studs, can handle what ever horsepower you can get out of it N/A. and would be a LOT less expensive to build. And,, if you are going to run a lot of nitrous on a stroker SBC,, about the largest I’d run is a 3.875 stroke with a 5.85 rod (1.51 r/s),, in order to assure a good ring package and top land (larger w/ nitrous to prevent ring land failure). If you want to get serious,, and money is not an object. The raised deck height blocks (like the Rocket Block) will allow you to run up to 441 cubes and still have a good ring package, and while I have not built a 460+, I’ve seen it done with a Rocket block. But man,, the costs add up,, the oil pan alone is ridiculous. However, most people have some sort of budget restraint,, and I think most of the folks out there would be happier with a 406 and most of the money rapped up in the heads,,, than a 427, or 434, with more money in the rotating assembly and less money in the heads. That’s based on my experiences with HP per dollar,, and based on feedback from folks I’ve built engines for. Plus make sure you find someone that has experiences with building stroker engine. There’s a lot to check and double check and goes SO much smoother when someone has a few under their belt. Anyway,, that’s my opinion based on my experience with them,,, I’m sure others will vary.

 

I'm finishing up a SBC 434 myself.

It features a 4.155" bore, 9.325" tall-deck, 4 stud/bolt, splayed steel caps, Dart Iron Eagle Rocket Block with SBC400 mains and BBC cam bearings, full ARP studs/fasteners throughout. Crower billet 4340 Ultralight 4.00" crank. Crower 6.125" billet 4340 stroker rods with ARP 625+ Custom Age rod bolts. Custom 11.27:1 JE 18 degree pistons.I am running Dart aluminum 18 degree heads that flow 355/260 cfm with 2.150/1.625 titanium Del West valves, titanium retainers etc. Jesel Winston Cup 1.7/1.6 shaft roller rockers, Jesel Winston Cup .875" roller lifters, custom Comp Cam solid roller cam w/ .648"/.623" 242/254 on a 112LSA. Jesel external dry timing belt. Custom Hogan's Racing Manifold's aluminum sheet metal intake manifold, 1300 cfm throttle body, custom 2 1/8" stepped headers, Titan billet Pro oil pump, and a custom Stef's oil pan. Speed-Pro sequential, individual cylinder, EFI.

Our goal is 700hp/600tq on 92 octane pump gas. Street driven, occasional NMCA/NSCA racing in a Tremec TKO equipped '82 Corvette.

434 Specifications

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[This message has been edited by Monty (edited February 05, 2001).]

 

One of the sweetest street/race cars I've seen is an '89 Vette w/434. SD miniram, what he calls a "mild" cam, TH700, 3.73 gears - runs 12.1's at 5800' Bandimere through the mufflers on DOT tires. He could drive it on the street - purrs like a kitten in the staging lanes - but he trailers it to protect it from street hazzards. Off the line it sounds like it's turning 7000 RPMs for the 1-2 shift, which seems to come awfully quick, but he says he shifts @ 5800.

Used to run nitrous on it, but NA gives him more consistent times.

Sweet.

Big bucks...

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82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R. 2.93 limited slip. Cat-back from '91 GTA, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LG4 w/LB9 block, ZZ3 cam and intake, WP 305 heads ported & polished, Hooker headers & y-pipe, hi-flow cat).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. 0.030 over 396, Weiand Action+, Edelbrock 1901 Q-Jet, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" headers, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & shift kit, 3.08 10-bolt, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Best 15.1 @ 5800' Bandimere. Daily driver while Camaro was being put together.

 

BadSS,
I'm not sure why you didn't catch this, but you can't run a 6" rod with a 4"stroke crank in a production 400 block. The top of the rod would be too close to the deck.

And just remember that cubes isn't everything, especially if you can't tune it. The whole engine package needs to match fairly close or you lose potential power. For instance the 1.75" primary headers that work great on my 383 would not be enough for a 434. Same applies to every other system around the engine. In the end it costs megabucks to build a well matched monster, and even then it will need proper tuning to do anything.
My 383 was very cheap, using stock 350 .030 over block, stock 400 crank, and stock X-rods from the 350 5.7" . It also uses a stock 400 damper, stock oilpump and oilpan.
Most of my power comes from tuning and matching systems rather than a collection of exotic parts and massive cubes.

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*I do custom performance mods on Edlebrock Performer carburetors (dualplane intake mods in the works),
White 1986 Irocz, 305/383 with Edlebrock Performer-RPM intake and Performer #1407 carburetor, +110hp shot of crack, 700R-4 tranny, 3.25:1 rear, Mcreary Road-Stars, SLP-stainless 1.75" shortie headers & Y-pipe, single 3" Borla exhaust, Linginfelter-TPI camshaft part number 74216 pulls 17" vacuum solid. Cam specs 213/219 @.050 114-LSA, .462/.470 lift @1.5:1 ratio. MSD-6AL, billet distributor, multi-retard, blaster-3 coil, and RPM switch.
N/A runs 10.9 @124,
Crack-runs 10.3 @135
haven't run at track since Oct-99

[This message has been edited by The ODB (edited February 08, 2001).]

 

Theoretically you could run a 6" rod with a 4" stroke, it just leaves little room to spare. Typical compression heights are 1.5-1.6", and with a 6" rod and 4" stroke leaves you only about 1". Very little. Some screwball probably does make pistons like that though, I have seen them down to 1.1"

More cubes hides bigger cams. Take a cam that is insanely radical in a 305 and stick it in a 502, and it will purr like a kitten.

 

i run 6" rods in my 406 and i know a guy who had them in a 434. it is possible, you can get pistons for a 6.250 rod with a 4" stroke. i don't think nitrous would be recommended for those though. the rings would be real close together and right up at the top.

i'm not trying to be a ***** here, but how is ODB running tens on that mild 383? is this a tube chassis car? what gives? again, not flaming, just a little doubtful. dispell my doubts OBD.

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88 S10
Dropped 3/4
Dart equipped 406
12.20 @ 115.25 mph

[This message has been edited by 406 S10 Man (edited February 05, 2001).]

 

how could I do that? what exactly is your question about my combo.
no it's not tube chassis, it's just an 86IrocZ with SSM frame connectors. Oh and it has T-tops but I doubt that helps it run tens.
So do you need witnesses or a copy of the video tape?

 

I built up a 6" rod 434 for somebody not too long ago. It was reasonably streetable for the little that I got to experience it before I moved out here. Of course the rings were 1/16" - 1/16" - 5/32", all crammed together at the very top of the piston, so I doubt it will last very long; but apart from that it seems to be OK. We put a Comp XR282HR in it, 30# injectors, a Haltech, and an Accel DFI intake with somebody's billet 4-barrel TB; all this on top of Edelbrock Performer RPM heads.

BTW the deck height on a SBC is 9.025" more or less; 6", plus ½ the 4" stroke which is 2", leaves just over 1" above the center of the pin; not enough for a street ring package, but it does fit.

[Edit:] Lunati pistons, bought from Lunati & Taylor. Big Joe (Joey still works at Lunati), since he sold Lunati to Holley, and Bill Taylor since he sold TCI to whoever, are now both past their non-competes, and are now a partnership doing the serious hot-rod thing... I've known them both for many years, having lived in Memphis since the 60s.

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports


[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited February 05, 2001).]

 

it just struck me as odd that a 383 with a relatively small cam and a performer carb and 3.25 gears would run so hard. can you give me some specs about the heads and comp ratio? how is your suspension set up?

------------------
88 S10
Dropped 3/4
Dart equipped 406
12.20 @ 115.25 mph

 

ughhh!! 427sbc sounds a heelllllll of lot better than a weenie 396sbc! remember:THERES NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT! well maybe a big shot of nos!!!hahahha! but id do the 427 just me! if you have the dough to build either one build the 427! more tourqe and hp!!!! oh yeah either one of the engines are streetable .....very streetable!! it just depends on the cam and the compression you decide to use! and remember the fuel mileage problem and yes it will be a BIG PROBLEM! lousy fuel mileage! either one is going to use about the same so just build the 427 sbc!

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1989 firebird formula

Mods: converted from T.B.I. to a carburator 305 to a 350. Flowmater exhaust,hedman shortie hedders,202 160 (882) heads,.447/.447 lift 222@.050 duration speed pro 327/350hp cam 350 .40 over (356) Edlebrock torker2 and a 600 edlebrock manual choke (1405)

Future mods performer rpm air gap intake (polished) comp roller cam, and way better headsa 400 defintely in the works!

[This message has been edited by burnoutrpm (edited February 05, 2001).]

 

Thanks RB,, and others clarifying to ODB that 6" rod with a 4" stroke will not stick out of the block.

ODB,, I know how much power it takes to run 10.90's and faster N/A,, and 10.30's and faster spraying. I've got to hear how you plan on dropping 0.91 seconds off an already impressive 10.90,, with your set up.

[This message has been edited by BadSS (edited February 09, 2001).]

 

I run the basic trick flow twisted wedge street heads. The chambers are 61cc which makes about 11:1 ratio with my .010" deck height.
My suspension: SSM lift bars welded to the axle housing. No torque arm, no sway bars. Front coil-over springs from Art Morrison on my stock struts.

what else?

 

don't get so touchy, judas. have you ever had it dynoed? can you run pump gas with that comp?

------------------
88 S10
Dropped 3/4
Dart equipped 406
12.20 @ 115.25 mph

 

Hey 406 S10.....Grandville as in S.W. of Grand Rapids? I live in G.R. Do you make it up to Stanton much?

 

I always run 92 octane pump gas with nothing added.
I don't understand how getting on a dyno would help me, so I have no interest. I judge power by trapspeed vs vehicle weight.

just answering the questions,
no problems.

 

yeah, that's where i race. i don't up there much because it is a ways away and costs quite a bit by the time you leave work early, use an entire tank of 93, and pay to get in. good time though, they even let me race with no helmet once. where in GR do you live? i would like to see the 406TPI.

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88 S10
Dropped 3/4
Dart equipped 406
12.20 @ 115.25 mph

 

I am only shooting for high 9's, no lower than 9.7 and no more than 137mph naturally aspirated with the 383 in the near future. I am definately going to turn the power up on the bottle to something close to 200hp, and I will be doing it completely different than I did in 1999. The engine will stay the same basic combo..heads, cam, intake, and carb, and it will still be a 383, but there will be many changes since it's last run at Gateway. The bottle will probably only drop it to low 9's @ around 145mph.
Most of my work this coming season will be with the 305. I do my experimenting on the 305 and when I'm satisfied I swap in the 383. That's how I'm planning it so far.
As far as exactly how I plan to get there. Well I'd rather not talk about the new stuff until I've proven that it works, so it will be a few months. Some of the new mods pertain to the Edlebrock Carb & intake manifold and are what I hope to base my future business on. I retire from the military in 6 years, and the carb & intake mods are what I want to do full time at that point.
I'm working on a modified carb & intake package that will outperform the out-of-the-box parts by over 50hp. I may eventually design my own cam profile, but it will only apply to sb-chevy running the Edlebrock dualplane intake. The idea is to match each intake lobe profile to it's corresponding intake runner. The runners do all flow different cfms at different velocities which causes some slight distribution problems. This in itsself doesn't directly cost a large amount of power, however it makes you reach the lean-limit way too early when trying to tune the whole engine for max power. The improvements would come in several ways like: signal to the carb, fuel mileage, idle smoothness, and max power.
If the prototype cam does not work out then I'll just drop it, but do want to give it a fair try. The cam will be well down the road after this year, so not a factor in the high 9 second N/A goal.
Well that's a little of it. When I have a complete set of test data on the mods then I will share the results. I am very hesitant about claiming anything that I haven't tested myself and confident in the validity of the test.
And yes I was exagerrating about the rods popping above the deck, but not by much. All the engine builders I know will not use anything more than a 6" rod with the 3.8 stroke crank in a production smallblock. I don't even think John Lingenfelter goes more than that without using the bowtie or rocket block. The pistons already rattle around enough in a stroker engine, but that would be too much to live long on the street. With such a short piston you have to give up too many advantages. I prefer a long rod to stroke ratio too, but I'd also draw the line at 6" with the 3.8 crank. My current 383 only uses the 5.7" with the 3.75" crank and I get way too much rattle when running cool or with slight lean misfires & detonation.
I remember David Vizard doing numerous tests on rod length as well as Lingenfelter. There was definately a difference but was small on a low horsepower (under 600hp) street engine. It seems the long rod ratios come into their own on the ovaltrack cars.
sorry this is a long post,
ODB

 

I still want to know what rearend you have in your car.

 

it's in the signature. 3.25:1 ratio and I run 27" diameter tires.

 

I have grenaded I don't know how many 7.5s, and I doubt my car is even very deep into the 12s. How do you get yours to hold up?

Also, what kind of chassis and suspension work have you had to do to put that much power to the ground? My brother-in-law has a 2200 lb 2nd gen Camaro, hollow doors & glass front cap and all that, with a pretty healthy 454 in it; he back-halfed it and has a 4-link and coil-overs, and only runs 10.68. What kind of 60' times do you get out of your car?

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited February 07, 2001).]

 

I thought you'd guess by the ratio that it's a ford nine inch rear. It's from Currie and not narrowed at all. I use southside machine liftbars (old style) welded to the axle housing. That's basically it.
I cannot launch it hard off the line at all. The nose doesn't even come up. I leave the line at 1200rpm and feather the gas for several feet.
Back in 1999 it was normally pulling around 1.60 sixty foot times with a best of 1.58
That should drop down to the mid 1.4's next time out with the 383. Not sure what the 305 will do next time but likely around mid 1.6's
I know of several overbuilt cars myself that run slower than I do. I also know some even more stock type cars that are faster than me. There are no real rules out there to limit anybody.
anything else I can tell ya?

 

i think that there is an aftermarket small block made by (world products?) for sale in summit,they say it can be stroked to (476?)without boreing? i think it was summit. maybe jegs.

 

ODB,, I've read your posts you're very knowledgable and technically sound. I know you do the old calculator figures et,,, speed. I mean,, IF your car was 3000lbs with driver (light for a typical street car), using the 137 mph target speed,, that's over 600 horses at the wheels,, and using 9.99999 et and a factor of 5.77 (for exceptional traction) that's 576 horses. If you loose a minimum,, of 10% through your drive train (usually more),, the engine would have to pull 640 - 670 horses in the cell. Uh,,,11:1, 383, 213/219 cam, even giving you the benefit of the doubt of having those twisted wedge heads mondo ported to flow 320 cfm (which they're capable of doing) - Hard to believe hell yes. I'm sure you believe it and hats off for trying,, even if you don't get there.

Good luck on your experiemental cam -lobes for different cylinders has already been done, I think I've got some literature and maybe some dyno figures on the changes varying lobes between cylinders,, apples to oranges probably in relation to your combo,, but I'll look for it in the library if you're interested. I actually thought about doing this years ago around 1989 or 1990?? until Joey Lunati told me how much it was going to cost - I hope you have an inside connection with a cam grinder. You're probably aware of the variable ratio rocker systems, not as effective as seperate lobes,, but it's out there. There's even an electronic opening valve system in development phase that you can set with a computer to dial in what ever duration and lift you want for what ever RPM,, for what ever cylinder,, Full or part throttle,, just a frickin tuner's wet dream - I don't think they have ironed out the durability issues, with EVA(?) (electronic valve activation - can't remember the abbreviation) but it's out there.

Anyway,, Good luck man,, hat's off. People thought the world was square at one time, until proven wrong!!!

 

Actually I did guess it was a 9". Currie huh? Maybe you got lucky in the crapshoot, but those guys suck. Someday I'll get around to taking out the excessive play in my diff that they couldnt seem to fix, and then called it 'normal'
Thats interesting running 1.6 60' times launching at 1200 and rolling into the throttle on slicks. Takes alot more power to do that than what you have, thats for sure. I also find it funny that you run 11.8 with a 305 and can only muster a 10.9 with 78 more cubes and better heads. Im sure that the guys who posted on the TPI board will take care of it though.

Tell me, what jets and rods do you run in that Weber based carb of yours? Part numbers are ok if you dont know the sizes.

 

ODB, i want to see the videotape. there is no way a motor with that cam will run tens. i won't believe it until i see the tape, and maybe not even then. no more being nice, i don't believe you.

------------------
88 S10
Dropped 3/4
Dart equipped 406
12.20 @ 115.25 mph

 

While I have NO experience with such a project, doesn't hogging out the cylinders that much cause adverse structural weakness in the block?

Wouldn't an excessive stroke cause excessive rod angles resulting in excessive side loads against very thin cylinder walls?

I don't know why anyone would want to bore and stroke a SBC out when they could just get a BBC complete with the cubes AND the internal structural integrity. Maybe somebody can clue me in on this?

 

If you're going to build a big small-block, like a 427/434 or larger, you're better off with an aftermarket block like a GM Rocket Block/Dart Iron Eagle or a GM Bow-Tie block.

These aftermarket blocks are cast with much thicker cylinder walls, decks and main webs than a factory production block. They are designed with this is mind, whereas the production blocks are not. So even when they are overbored .030" or so, they typically still have thicker walls than a stock production block. Actually many features and dimensions of a big block are incorporated into these small blocks. For example, the main caps and cam bearings are big block sized on my engine.

For example the Rocket Block I used to build my SBC 434 has at least .200" cylinder walls even when it's bored out to 4.200". The deck has a minimum thickness of .875", even when decked.

The use of a tall deck block, like the 9.325" I used, allows you to maintain a workable rod/stroke angle. With a 4.0" stroke and 6.125" rods, I have 1.53 rod/stroke angle. In comparison, a common 5.7" rod SBC 383 has a rod/stroke ratio of 1.52. As we all know, there are plenty of 383's running around these days without detrimental affects due to a 1.52 r/s angle.


The reason I would rather have a 427/434 small block rather than a similarly sized big block, is because it's more stealth, it's at least 100 lbs lighter, it's much less common, and in my opinion, just plain cooler. However, I'll be the first to admit that they do cost more.

But imagine the look on people's face when I pull a high 9 or low 10 second 1/4 mile, and they open the hood and they see a small block with no NO2, no forced induction, and it runs on 92 octane without overheating and is plenty reliable, yet make 700hp and 600tq. I drive it to and from the track, as well as just cruising around on the street.

------------------
SBC 434 700hp/600tq
434 Specifications

[This message has been edited by Monty (edited February 09, 2001).]

 

Two R's,

The SBC is 140 lb. lighter than its big bro.

It's a WHOLE BUNCH cheaper to build - although if you start getting into steel cranks, rods, etc. the cost differential narrows. Aftermarket heads alone are $1,000 less on a SBC, although, again, I've seen that narrowed down to about $800 just this year.

Space is a very big consideration - especially in Chevy II's, early Novas, and Corvettes.

Heat is a biggy - BBc's make a lot of underhood heat simply for the fact that there's so dadgummed much iron there.

All things considered though, I'll stick to the SBC, but with one qualifier:

Only up to 421 cubes. For big motors, the BBC rules the road - have you seen the SDPC 502 motor (short block) for $3,695 ?

Aluminum heads and intake save 100 lbs., and uh, you wanna talk stroker motors?

Merlin in a crate = 540 cubes.

And it goes up from there. Mountain mans dream.

Oh well, if I ever get a year where the hospital isn't soaking up all my $$$, I'll do the 406 in the garage.

But, it's beginning to look like a 150HP shot for "ole blue" this summer, and the 406 next year.

High 11's in a 327 ? Sure.

BOR

 

ok i think we've all debated what Mr ODB can or can't do enough. i'll allow that it borders on tech, but it also borders on a flame war that i don't want to see develope. if you want to continue take it to e mail or go to macgyvers board www.nethirdgen.org it'd be a lot better to read than some of the post i've saw there lately. you can alos repost it on here and see how it goes, but i hear some of the moderators here are ******.

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ICON Motorsports

1st & 3rd