I'm just curious, would there be any advantage over putting an ls1 cam into a lo5 vs an lt1 cam?

 

LS1 cam wont fit. Its a different size.

 

Nothing from the LS1 works in a GEN1 SBC.

The beauty of the LT1 cam is, its a roller cam, you can find them super cheap, and they give a nice kick in a 305.

 

L05 is the 350 TBI, L03 is the 305 version...

 

According to his little description under his avatar, he's got a 350 TBI

But yeah, it's definately not interchangable to a gen1 sbc.

 

Yes he has a L05 which is a crappy 350 tbi, with awesome swirl-port heads.

 

so what would people suggest to make the motor un-crappy? I'm open to suggestions

I'm already planning on dynomax headers

 

The swirl port heads are great for fuel economy and low end torque, but when you need higher RPM HP the design isn't that great.

A head/cam swap along with headers and full exhaust should wake it up pretty good. Then when you get some more cash, get a decent single plane intake, larger injectors, and a larger TB.

Then get into your own PROM burning, and you'll have one mean car

 

I am planning on alum vortec heads and intake, would and lt1 cam be good for my motor? (hopefully most everything will be taken care of when I get the chance to do a rebuild) I'm also thinking 3'' exaust all the way back (no cat to worry about).

 

All vortec heads, even the ones by Pro Topline, are cast iron.

If its a 350, im not sure the LT1 cam is the best choice. If it were the L03 (305 version with TPI) then, yes, it would be a good choice.

 

305 TBI

It's ok stekman, we all have those days Only for me, it's almost every day

 

crap, i knew that.

cant blame it on age, im only 20
cant blame it on drunkeness, im dead sober right not
cant blame it on drugs, i dont do those
cant blame it on lack of sleep, im always up this late
cant blame it on fat fingering, dont have fat fingers and the "P" is not next to the "B"

crap, ive been caught. Thanks for catching that.

 

Fast burns are also known as "Aluminum vortec heads"

 

there is such thing as alum vortec heads. they are in jeg's latest catalog from gmpp. does anyone have a suggestion for a vortec tbi intake?

 

I know "fast burns" by "fast burns" and "vortecs" by "vortecs." If you want to talk about Fast Burn heads, then call them Fast Burn heads. If youre talking about Vortec heads, then call them Vortecs.

Also, they arent TRUE vortecs as they use 62cc chambers and larger runners.

*EDIT* The heads you reference in jegs are known to the common world as "fast burn heads"

And why do you want those? You do realize thats $600 each head, for $1200 for a pair, right? AFR 195s are about that much i think.

 

so do they require a certain intake? what would be a good one?

 

yes they require a special vortec intake.

For that price, as i edited, a set of AFR heads can be had.

 

this is the first build i would like to do, and i want a solid reasonably powered motor (aka smoke ricers). i am very open to suggestions for this motor.

lets pretend you had 4grand to spend. what would you do to this motor? anybody?

 

i would leave the engine as it is and go buy another block and start a 383 or some 400-based engine.

let me reverse the question a bit.

What is your budget?
What would you like out of your engine?
What kind of RPM/power are you shooting for?

What i would do with 4k may be different from someone elses. Its your car. You know what you want out of it. Tell us what you want and we will help you get there. but dont get me wrong, fast burns are great heads. They are better than stock. Are they the best possible head for $1200? Probably not. Im not trying to scold you out of buying various parts, dont get me wrong. Im trying to make sure you look at all the available options, making sure you get the most of your money. If you ahve 1200 for a set of aluminum heads, i wold get a set of AFR 190 or 195's. They will out flow the Fast Burns, they will out power the fast burns, i guarantee it.

*edit* fast burns may not require a special vortec intake....but they do require self aligning rockers.

 

ok I appreciate the help so here goes. budget? about 4k, what kind of power? I don't have any specific goal in mind other than not having to wonder if I can beat a ***** or not, what kind of hp/rpm? see previous question.

As I said before, this is going to be my first complete rebuild and I just want to make sure I do it right, the main goal I suppose would be to have this engine last me 150,000 miles or more. so basically the goal is a quick and reliable engine.

again thanks to everyone for thier help and keep the suggestions coming.

 

Take your 350, bring it to a shop for some "freshening up." Have it rehoned. Bore it if it needs it. Basically, bring it back to spec wherever it needs it. AT least have it magnifluxed and hot tanked. Determine what compression ratio you plan on running. Look around at the piston choices. Depending on if you plan for a power adder, or even depending on what amount of security you want to take in your pistons, hypereutectics are fine for daily driving and are even suitable for NA power. If you want real security in your pistons or plan a power adder, TRW/Speed Pro offers forged pistons at a very affordable price. But in themselves, there is nothing WRONG with hypereutectics, other than the fact that they tend to just "shatter" when detonation occurs, whereas forged more or less deforms. Your factory rods can be re-used as can the factory crankshaft. If you want aftermarket, both Eagle and Scat make affordable factory replacement pieces. For Eagle, its their "ESP' line. I am not sure what Scats line is. But for most applications on a budget rebuild with more than stock hp, but less than 450-500, the factory crank and rods can be used.

If you desire to use the factory crank and rods, Might want to take them in and see if they need regrinding, though i dont think they will. Get some good ARP Wave-loc rod bolts. Have the rods resized for them for the new rod bolts (this is needed, so dont skimp otherwise). Up to about 450 or so hp, theres nothing wrong with using the factory rods and cranks, assuming yo dont plan on spinning the engine to

Get either a engine kit, or buy parts individually. Summit offers a kit that includes the basic parts such as pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, oil pump, freeze plugs, etc. Once you get it tanked and mag'd, that ruins the cam bearings so you will need to have them replaced. You will need new freeze plugs as well. Federal Mogul is a good bearing company to look into. Clevite has had some quality control issues in the past. The summit kit comes with Federal Mogul bearings all around and can be purchased with TRW/Speed Pro pistons with about 9.72:1 compression with 64cc heads. If you choose that route, you might want to consider buying a Melling M-55 regular volume oil pump. Its more then enough to supply your engine. i think the approprioate screen is the M55-S or something like that. Get an ARP Pump driveshaft rod. Its about $15 from Summit. Once you determine the pickup height, somehow attach it to the pump via welding or bolting or some similar manner. Just make sure it doesnt move. What you do on part selection really comes down to how specific you want to be on ordering parts.

If you got the block bored over, the "normal" overbore is .030 inches. If it is bored over, make sure you get pistons and rings that reflect upon the over bore size. Dont overbore because you get more displacement, because you wont feel a thing between a 355 and a 350 if the only difference in parts is the .030" overbore. Bore it over ONLY if it needs it. Otherwise, just hone it. Just bring back the cross hatch. Boring isnt wherethe pwer is made, power is made in the stroke. If you are feeling gutsy, you can have the block cleared for a larger stroke, namely to make a 383. But, if you are only looking for something a tad quicker, a 350 is fine.

Heads, get rid of the swirl ports you have on the motor now. Depending on just how ballsy you want to be, There are some good aftermarket heads out there made by Dart and other various companies that are quite affordable, say around $750 for some assembled heads. And they will greatly out flow the swirly ports you have now. If youre really under a crunch, you can get some 305 heads, such as the 416's, 601's, or 081's. With some porting and other do-it-yourself work, they can flow about as much, if not more, than vortec heads. Just keep in mind, that often times, after the work to heads has been done, a good set of aftermarket heads could be had. Just be sure to look at your options and add things up.

You have a roller cam. Yank the lifters and spin the roller on each one. If each spins freely still, then can be re-used. While the engine is out, this may be a good time to up the stall speed on the torque converter a bit. A widely popular cam is the Xe276hr cam.

* Advertised duration: 276 intake/282 exhaust
* Duration at .050 in. cam lift: 224 intake/230 exhaust
* Gross valve lift: .502 in. intake/.510 in. exhaust
* Lobe separation: 110 degrees
* RPM range: 1,900 to 5,600
* Recommended for high performance street machines.
* 2,000 rpm plus stall, gears
* Choppy idle

A 2400 stall, maybe more, maybe less, depending on just how high you want to stall would look nice with this cam. If you want to stay EFI, they do offer the same cam with a wider lobe seperation that is geared for EFI setups.

it would take some serious PROM tuning to get your car to run with all this stuff. You might want to see just how up to par you are with DIY PROM burning. If you arent up to par, like me, non-computer controlled carb just may be a good thing. A dual plane like the Performer RPM or Weiand Stealth and a 750 or so cfm carb would top that off nicely. You would need an HEI distributor as well. Mallory, Accel, MSD, all make good units for $200 or less. Msd seems to be the best for GM HEI setups. Unless you want to stay EFI. Thats a decision you will have to make.

i think that about covers it. The build i gave you was for a 350 ir 355 with a non-computer controlled carb setup. With proper tuning carb setups can get just fine gas milage and can make great power. There are things like the Stealth Ram, Super Ram, And other various MPFI setups. They are great, dont get me wrong. However, those in themselves tend to cost upwards of $2000. A strong carb setup is about $200 for the intake, $200 for the distributor, and $300 or so for the carb. All you need to do is learn to turn a screwdriver to tune the carb. So, i guess, the main question is, Do you want to stay EFI? Or can you venture to the world of the venturi-method of induction?

Thats just advice from how i see it.

 

I also have a l05....

I installed a lt4 camshaft which helped out A LOT over the stock POS. However the only thing holding me back is the swirl port heads.

I got the caprice version of the l05 which has 9.6:1 compression, roller camshaft, and hyper pistons. Decent starting point and it was all I could afford at the time.

Soon as I get the cash for some vortecs and I get my suspension finished I have a feeling I'll have a pretty quick camaro that will get decent milage and idle great.

 

wow I can't tell you how much I appreicate all that info. so what do you mean that hyper pistons shatter? thats no big deal that the cam bearings and freeze plugs goto crap after being hot tanked, I planned on replacing them anyways. I plan on keeping it EFI, so it looks like I need to start learning prom burning.
that looks like a little bigger cam than I was looking at, I was looking at the 1500-I forget what the top rpm range is; what is the benifit of one over the other? so for my purposes would a kit work? I've pretty much picked out a bunch of parts that would seem to work, KB hyper pistons, moly rings, fm bearings, and a melling oil pump. the only thing I'm having trouble with is picking some good heads, and a gasket set, I like fel-pro but mr gasket seems to have a good kit too; is there alot of difference in the quality?
again thanks for the input and keep it coming, I can't belive how much I keep learning from this site.

 

Sounds like you have a desired RPM range. Comp makes the Xr269hr (one size smaller than the one i listed above):

* Advertised duration: 269 intake/276 exhaust
* Duration at .050 in. cam lift: 218 intake/224 exhaust
* Gross valve lift: .495 in. intake/.503 in. exhaust
* Lobe separation: 112 degrees
* RPM range: 1,500 to 5,500
* Good for TPI 5.0L/5.7L with aftermarket chip and upgraded exhaust

That is a roller cam with the stepped cam nose for roller blocks. It does have a kit, that is around $670. Comes with the camshaft, timing set, lifters, valve springs, retainers, valve locks, and seals. They also include a thing of assembly lube. This may or may not be a good deal. It would depend on what you want to do for cylinder heads. You could get some bare castings from a company such as Dart Iron Eagles for about $590. Fully Assembled is roughly $900. I dont konw what the spring pocket size is, though.

If youre going to stay TBI, you may just want to consider looking at some of the aftermarket units. I know Holley makes an assortment of 2 and 4 bbl units with various flow ranges. Another option you would have is the TB off of a 454. Im not exactly sure what all in involved with that, buti do know that the TB off of a 454 can be used with some minor modifications. Do a search on that and you can find some good info.

<A HREF="https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/ultimatetbi.shtml">Ultimate TBI mods 1</A>
<A HREF="https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/ultimatetbi2.shtml">Ultimate TBI mods 2</A>

Take a look at those, particularly the second one. They have some good info on modification of the stock unit.

What i meant by hyper pistons shatter is that they are harder than forged. Not ro be confused with stronger, as they are not. Because they are harder, they do not take well to detonation. If you take a look at what detonation is and what it emits, you will see that under detonation circumstances, it emits powerful pressure waves. These pressure waves are the pinging you will hear. Now, a forged piston, when hit with these pressure waves will deform a bit, because they are not as hard. When this wave of pressure hits a hyper piston, it tends to just shatter because it is harder than forged.

There is nothing wrong with Fel-Pro gaskets. I have used them with every engine i built/rebuilt. I have no personal experience with Mr. Gasket. But if hyper pistons are what you are looking at, a summit rebuild kit may just be a decent choice. You can get an assortment of compression ratios. All kits come with:

Pitsons
Speed Pro rings
Federal Mogul cam/main/rod bearings
Speed Pro high volume oil pump
Fel-Pro gasket kit
brass freeze plugs
plastigauge
assembly lube

Its basically a Federal Mogul kit. You can go to a parts store or whatever and buy a standard volume Melling pump to use instead. Like i said, i think the 55-s is the screen you will need. You might want to look into the pressure relief spring offered by Mr. Gasket. For about 4 bucks more it raises the pressure of the pump. (Part 720-26 at jegs, MRG-26 at summit).

However, if you do wish to buy parts seperatly (which is fine) then yes, look over the pistons. If you are not dead set on KB pistons, Summit offers piston kits by Speed Pro that have hyper pistons and moly rings. However, the compresion is limited to about 9.72 with 64cc heads. I would suggest Federal Mogul bearings all around, as you stated.

Just, whatever you do, dont buy the pushrods yet. Buy or borrow a pushrod length checking tool. The last thing you want to do is snap a pushrod because of poor valve train geometry.

 

ok, so how about that kit in the summit catalog on pg 113; am I correct to assume that since they say each kit is made to specs, I can specify different parts (i.e. forged pistons, moly rings, fm bearings, etc).

about the heads (a 9.7 cr sounds good to me)I see those dart iron eagle's that I think you are reffering to w/the 230cc intake runner and the 64cc chamber? so if I got bare heads and that cam kit, forged pistons, fm bearings, moly rings, a decent oil pump, that would be a good start for a motor? actually I just looked a little closer, what about valves? does that cam kit come with them, or the heads or do I need to get those seperately? would I have to grind the valve seats to match or is that not nessacary because they are new?

again thank you for your help so far and keep it coming

 

I would NOT get heads with 230cc runners if this is a street car.

I would stay around 180cc intake runners or they will not work that well on the street.

230cc runners would want to make HP at very high RPM...180cc will keep you happy up to 6000 or so.

 

A Comp "K Kit" comes with:

Cam
Lifters
Timing Set
Valve Springs
Retainers
Locks
Valve Seals
Assembly Lube

If you buy a bare head, you need the guides, screw in studs and i strongly suggest guideplates. Comp makes an affordable pushrod that has been hardened for use with guideplates. Its about $35 for 16. For rocker arms, it this is a street duty/daily driver i would recommend a set of Comp magnum rocker arms. Either 1.52 or 1.6 ratio. Non self aligning, for 3/8" stud. Its just shy of $150 for 16 and they dont have fatigue issues like aluminum rocker arms. You will need valves if you get bare heads. The street flow series is a good valve at a good price. its about $65 for the intake set and another $65 for the exhaust. They feature the race-flo undercut for more flow. Another thing you might need is valve spring shims. I think that about covers it for wht you would need to assemble a bare head.

As for the head itself, you dont want a 230cc intake runner. Yes it will flow a lot of air, however, it will kill your low end torque. Shoot for maybe a 180cc or so runner and 64cc chambers. Dart has an Iron Eagle with 180cc runners, 64cc chambers, and 2.02/1.6 valves. Summit part number DRT-10120010. Once you buy the heads, you should be able to just assemble it and be good to go. Factory head bolts CAN be reused. Might want to have them checked to see that they have not exceeded the stretch limit. Or, ARP sells head bolt kits for $50. There are factory head bolts on eBay all the time.

The parts you listed would be a fine start. Whether or not you use the Speed Pro pump they supply is up to you. I have heard stories of it sucking a stock pan dry. However, i myself use a HV pump and stock pan but havent had that happen yet. May or may not want to purchase a Melling M-55 regular pump and the pressure spring as i listed above.

Of all the parts in the engine rebuild kit, the only ones that i can see that are truly customizable are the pistons and rings and the rod/main bearings. Either way, you get moly rings. The ring size (and incidentally piston size) will depend on if you have an overbore or not. The cam bearings are cam bearings. The rod and main bearings you will need to specify if your crank has been ground or not. If it has, get the appropriate bearings. So you will need to have the block and crank checked. The block for sure. the crank, only if you plan on reusing it. Once you have them checked out, then you can order a rebuild kit.

Another thing to do is to ask your machine company/shop to see if they sell engine kits. From my experience, if they know you are buying an engine kit form them and have them install it, they will take a little more care into installation. I know my shop does if you have them build it. But generally, an engine shop kit come with all those parts. And perhaps you can specifically specify what pistons, rings, bearings, etc you want. Im not sure, every shop has differeny policies regarding that stuff, so you would have to call and ask. But its definitly another option that you will want to look into.

or, you can do what one of my friends did. Go to the shop and ask for a .030 overbore and get the crank ground. Then order a kit. However, i wouldnt suggest that. You might end up paying for machine work that wasnt needed. In the end, he did need both, so it worked for him.

Depending on how picky you are, you can have the block brought back to spec then ask for it back bare. No freeze plugs, no cam bearings, nothing. Take it to the local coin wash and, is what i did, was degrease the entire block (not sure if thats completely needed, but i did anyway) and then spray it down/out. I sprayed every last coolan passage, every last oil passage, every nook and cranny. That way, you are certain that there are no metal shavings from the machine work stuck in the block.. Just be sure that it gets dried well. I used compressed air to dry mine. its not hard to install cam bearings. It takes about a $30 tool. I think autozone rents it in their loan-a-tool program. But it isnt hard, just follow the directions. Likewise, its not hard to install freeze plugs. That all circles down to how secure you are KNOWING that your block is clean.

On a side note, i am not sure what you plan on doing with the balancer, but if you plan on re-using it, look at 2 things. first, make sure the inertia ring is still in place and hasnt slipped out. The inertia ring is the rubber-like ring that seperates the mounting part from the outer hub. The second thing is, with it off, make sure the timing indicator hasnt slipped (i.e. the outer hub hasnt slipped from its origninal position). I do believe on yours, your timing indicator is 10° left of the keyway. If its off the engine, the easiest way i can think of would be to take a protractor and line the base point with the center of the balancer mounting hole. Line the crank keyway up with 90° via a straight edge of some sort. Then meausre the angle of offset of the timing mark. If it has slipped any, you will want a new balancer. For a good budget replacement piece, ive used a Pioneer. No issues yet. If you want a better piece, fluidamper has a street version, non-SFI approved for $160 for the 6 7/8", and $220 for the 7 3/16" version. Its still the silicone fluid like the SFI version, just not SFI approved. Pioneers is like $80 or so for their version.

 

so from what I understand I would beifit from forged insted of hyper pistons. it looks like I would have to buy the pistons and rings seperately, I'm looking through my summit and jegs catalog and that seems to be the case. I get what you mean by the hyper pistons shatter and the forged ones don't, but when does that become something to worry about? (age? rpms?).

I'm starting to lean towards just buying an assembled head, it almost looks like it would be almost the same price and I wouldn't have to worry about assembling them. I have to admit, all the different heads and thier specs is starting to get a little overwhelming. how well would those Dart Iron Eagle heads work for me? (the same ones you mentioned except assembled) would I just need to get the cam, timing set and lifters then?

What would be a good intake to get? I was looking at the eldlebrock tbi w/egr intake, then I was reading a post somewhere around here that was talking about using a tbi adapter on a single plane intake; is there any merit in that idea? I really appreciate your help (and keep it coming), hopefully I can get all of this figured out and have a great motor.

 

Buying the seperate parts is not a big issue. Its really a matter of some people dont know/like to think through all the parts they would need.

If you dont plan on running any big time compression or crazy timing, or any power adder (i.e. blower, nitrous, etc) hypereutectic pistons should be fine. Its not that they are a BAD piston. Its just that the purpose they were designed to serve differs from the purpose forged was meant to serve. If this is going to be a mild rebuild, designed for street compression and stockish timing; a motor that doesnt see the crazy-high RPMs and doesnt get raced all the time, hyper pistons will do just fine. You just need to know the limit of what they can handle.

The Dart Iron eagles, assuming 180cc intake ports and 64cc chambers would easily out perform your TBi "swirl ports." Now, an alternative that ive been reluctant to add, is get a set of factory 305 heads such as the 601, 416, or 081 heads. With some porting and polishing they can really flow quite nicely. However, porting isnt for everyone. I know some people who dont have the patience or willingness to sit down and spend time on some heads.

A TBI adapter to a single plane intake has been done, and can be gotten away with for street driving because TBI does not have to deal with the vacuum issues like carbs do. However, the power band is still the same for the most part. You would need to watch hood clearance still, however. The Edelbrock 2975 is a good single plane with good clearance. You might be able to get away with the Weiand X-cellerator. Im not sure, have not heard to many good reports about that intake. But then again, they were based on carbureted applications. Just keep in mind, if you need EGR, the intake needs to have EGR provisions. Dont think the victor or X-cel. do. I do know that Weiand makes a Team "G" intake that has a 2000-6000 RPM band and has EGR provisions. If you want to use a single plane and EGR, that may just be an intake to look into. However, im sure a dual plane could be used as well, for that matter. But im not really a TBI guy.

 

I'm just about decided on the speed pro hyper piston kit, my question on that is, can they be orderd oversize? (.030) it dosen't say in the catalog or the website (summit or jegs) or I just might not be seeing it. I think I'm just going to go with the edlebrock tbi w/egr intake, unless there is a better one, but I like the idea of it basically being a bolt on.
so if I get just a cam insted of a "k" kit, I need the timing set and lifters right? what about rockers (I was thinking the 1.6 rr, how do I tell the differance between self aligning and non self algining?)
are there any other bolts that should be replaced besides the rod bolts? and do you happen to know where to find the fel-pro gasket set? (like a catalog page or a pn)

thanks for your continuing help and pls ignore the spelling errors as I am tierd and going to get some rack time

 

The standard kit from summit is .030" IIRC. Its probably one of those things thats best if you call in on and they can ask questions.

If you get just the cam, you will need a timing set and lifters. Comp also sells cam and lifter kits, to get the part number for these, simply add a "CL" in front of the part number. For example, if the cam is CCA-12-242-2, the cam/lifter kit would be CCA-CL12-242-2. This kit includes the cam and lifters.

If you are ordering rocker arms, they will generally say "for centerbolt valve covers" or something similar. What type of rocker arms are you thinking about?

FEL-KS2600 is the gasket kit for "1957-80" 265-350 chevy. page 166 of the Summit with the big blown engine on the front.

 

well I found the gasket kit, hiding right out in the open . so if I add CL to the pn will that give me the roller lifters? I don't see that in the catalog. can you reccomend a good timing set? I see them range in price from about $40 to about $100. I'm looking at the rr from comp cams CCA-1418-16, they should work becuase it says "for use wth centerbolt valve covers".

 

www.compcams.com


They have all the part numbers and cam kits listed.

 

You are building this off of the 350 TBI listed in your info, correct? If so, you already have a roller block. Unlike their flat faced coutnerparts, roller lifters can be re-used as there is no coinciding wear on the lifter face (like the flat's) as there is on the cam lobe. Basically, the roller in the lifter eliminates the friction and rubbing that is what causes the wear and tear. Hence leading to the issue of having to replace the lifters with the cam. But because you have roller lifters, you dont need to replace them. Well you CAN, but you dont HAVE to. Just pull them out and spin the roller to make sure that all 16 spin freely. If they do, set them aside to be reused. All you need is a cam and a timing set.

From the Compcam.com online catalog, of the hydraulic roller sections, you need a cam from the "1987-1998 305-350 Originally Equipped With Hydraulic Roller, except LT1 and LT4." The cam you will get has a stepped nose such as this:

This stepped nose fits nicely inside the cam retainer plate that is bolted to the front of the engine:
That, along with a few other things defines a "roller" block. There is no price difference in the retro-fit roller cam style versus a factory roller. From Summit, both series are $239.95ish IIRC.

Insidentally, you will also need a timing set for a factory roller cam. Due to the stepped nose profile the roller cam timing gear has a smaller circle cut into it for where it mounts to the cam. Comp makes the CCA-3136 (roughly $75 at summit). There is the lower grade version as well. Summit also sells a factory roller version for about $42. I would go with the Comp 3136. I have their non-factory roller version and its a strong piece.