Charcoal Canister Question
Charcoal Canister Question
How much fuel actually passes through the charcoal canister??
I'm thinking about just removing it, and then routing the hose that brings it unused fuel to some sort of fuel cell, and whenever it's full, just emptying it out into the gas tank
I need the space for a Cold Air Intake and don't want to just mount it under it's current spot........
I'm thinking about just removing it, and then routing the hose that brings it unused fuel to some sort of fuel cell, and whenever it's full, just emptying it out into the gas tank
I need the space for a Cold Air Intake and don't want to just mount it under it's current spot........
Originally posted by ede
it's for vapors not raw fuel
it's for vapors not raw fuel
Seems pointless........
Can i just run a tube......and instead of it just leading to the charcoal canister, having it run to the underside of the car and emit the vapors out the bottom of the car???
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From: Bloomingdale,IL
Car: 91 RS
Engine: 305 Tbi (L03)
Transmission: 700r4
I guess you could do that. Or you could plug the line and get a vented gas cap.
I would just leave it alone thou. It doesnt hurt power. Helps fuel economy. Is easily relocated.
I would just leave it alone thou. It doesnt hurt power. Helps fuel economy. Is easily relocated.
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Originally posted by FLYNLOW92rs
Does anyone have some pictures of some relocated charcoal canisters???
Does anyone have some pictures of some relocated charcoal canisters???
Kevin
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From: Glen Allen, VA
Originally posted by FLYNLOW92rs
I'm pretty sure it goes to the fuel tank as well.......
I'm pretty sure it goes to the fuel tank as well.......
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by 25THRSS
yes, there is a line that goes FROM the fuel tank to the canister and then from the canister the vapors go to the throttle body. Nothing goes from the canister back to the tank. You may be thinking of the return fuel line. You can ditch the whole thing and just vent the tank outside. I took the pressure relief valve off and replaced it with a breather and it works great.
yes, there is a line that goes FROM the fuel tank to the canister and then from the canister the vapors go to the throttle body. Nothing goes from the canister back to the tank. You may be thinking of the return fuel line. You can ditch the whole thing and just vent the tank outside. I took the pressure relief valve off and replaced it with a breather and it works great.
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Well I went a little overboard because I am a perfectionist. I took the entire line that runs the length of the car off, I had to cut it in about 3 places, but it bends real easy and wasn't too hard to get off really. After that I capped the few inches left coming out of the fuel tank. I then took off the pressure reflief valve, which is the white plastic thing you'll see when you get under there, and simply replaced it with a breather. Works like a charm and looks like it was put there from the factory. Sorry shifty, but no working digital camera right now, so no pics. It's not hard really, took me a couple hours to do the whole thing and I took some breaks from the heat too.
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by 25THRSS
Well I went a little overboard because I am a perfectionist. I took the entire line that runs the length of the car off, I had to cut it in about 3 places, but it bends real easy and wasn't too hard to get off really. After that I capped the few inches left coming out of the fuel tank. I then took off the pressure reflief valve, which is the white plastic thing you'll see when you get under there, and simply replaced it with a breather. Works like a charm and looks like it was put there from the factory. Sorry shifty, but no working digital camera right now, so no pics. It's not hard really, took me a couple hours to do the whole thing and I took some breaks from the heat too.
Well I went a little overboard because I am a perfectionist. I took the entire line that runs the length of the car off, I had to cut it in about 3 places, but it bends real easy and wasn't too hard to get off really. After that I capped the few inches left coming out of the fuel tank. I then took off the pressure reflief valve, which is the white plastic thing you'll see when you get under there, and simply replaced it with a breather. Works like a charm and looks like it was put there from the factory. Sorry shifty, but no working digital camera right now, so no pics. It's not hard really, took me a couple hours to do the whole thing and I took some breaks from the heat too.
Do the fuel vapors actually assist in the improvement of gas mileage or is it 100% for environment reasons only?
Found something i tought i would post for future technical reference......
Found something i tought i would post for future technical reference......
Last edited by FLYNLOW92rs; Jul 6, 2004 at 09:35 PM.
Found while doing some research, seems it was installed to help the EPA, but it's unclear about removing it and gas mileage consequences.....
Gasoline evaporates quite easily. In the past these evaporative emissions were vented into the atmosphere. 20% of all HC emissions from the automobile are from the gas tank. In 1970 legislation was passed, prohibiting venting of gas tank fumes into the atmosphere. An evaporative control system was developed to eliminate this source of pollution. The function of the fuel evaporative control system is to trap and store evaporative emissions from the gas tank and carburetor. A charcoal canister is used to trap the fuel vapors. The fuel vapors adhere to the charcoal, until the engine is started, and engine vacuum can be used to draw the vapors into the engine, so that they can be burned along with the fuel/air mixture. This system requires the use of a sealed gas tank filler cap. This cap is so important to the operation of the system, that a test of the cap is now being integrated into many state emission inspection programs. Pre-1970 cars released fuel vapors into the atmosphere through the use of a vented gas cap. Today with the use of sealed caps, redesigned gas tanks are used. The tank has to have the space for the vapors to collect so that they can then be vented to the charcoal canister. A purge valve is used to control the vapor flow into the engine. The purge valve is operated by engine vacuum. One common problem with this system is that the purge valve goes bad and engine vacuum draws fuel directly into the intake system. This enriches the fuel mixture and will foul the spark plugs. Most charcoal canisters have a filter that should be replaced periodically. This system should be checked when fuel mileage drops.
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by FLYNLOW92rs
Found while doing some research, seems it was installed to help the EPA, but it's unclear about removing it and gas mileage consequences.....
Found while doing some research, seems it was installed to help the EPA, but it's unclear about removing it and gas mileage consequences.....
Originally posted by ShiftyCapone
It has no effect on fuel economy. It is just to keep vapors out of the atmosphere.
It has no effect on fuel economy. It is just to keep vapors out of the atmosphere.
This system should be checked when fuel mileage drops.
Does it have a negative effect on fuel mileage when it's not working properly????? But no positive effect when it's working correctly??
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From: Bloomingdale,IL
Car: 91 RS
Engine: 305 Tbi (L03)
Transmission: 700r4
You can notice a difference in fuel economy. You might as well put the vapors from the gas you bought back into the engine. It cant hurt.
Theres two lines to the evap. One is a vent from the gas tank. The other is a vacuum line with a solenoid. As long as you have both lines along with their wires hooked up your evap system should work as desigined.
Theres two lines to the evap. One is a vent from the gas tank. The other is a vacuum line with a solenoid. As long as you have both lines along with their wires hooked up your evap system should work as desigined.
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Car: 1997 Corvette
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Hmm interesting. I just bought a new filter for mine today for the hell of it ($1.69). I installed it by removing the hold-down screws, and placing the filter in the indentation under the canister, and bolting the canister back down...is this correct? If it is, there was no filter there before, and I don't see why anyone would have removed it. Did GM not install filters in these cars for the charcoal canister?
I also considered removing mine, but wasn't sure what its function was exactly. Well, I knew what it did, but I didn't know why. Its not really in the way of anything, so I might leave it in there anyways, but how do I check to make sure the vacuum solenoid works? I replaced all of my vacuum lines today under the hood, and noticed the solenoid, but didn't know how to check whether it works or not..
I also considered removing mine, but wasn't sure what its function was exactly. Well, I knew what it did, but I didn't know why. Its not really in the way of anything, so I might leave it in there anyways, but how do I check to make sure the vacuum solenoid works? I replaced all of my vacuum lines today under the hood, and noticed the solenoid, but didn't know how to check whether it works or not..
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by FLYNLOW92rs
This system should be checked when fuel mileage drops.
Does it have a negative effect on fuel mileage when it's not working properly????? But no positive effect when it's working correctly??
This system should be checked when fuel mileage drops.
Does it have a negative effect on fuel mileage when it's not working properly????? But no positive effect when it's working correctly??
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Originally posted by ShiftyCapone
I am not sure. The only thing I could think of is if it sucked out some of your intake charge if it mall functioned. I am not even sure if it could do such a thing. The amount of vapors that it collects is so small it is almost negligable.
I am not sure. The only thing I could think of is if it sucked out some of your intake charge if it mall functioned. I am not even sure if it could do such a thing. The amount of vapors that it collects is so small it is almost negligable.
Well i have decided to go the route that 25thRSS mentioned and just completely remove this thing........
.......lines and all
I can not find a single resource that says it improves gas mileage, however they all mention that if you are getting bad gas mileage the charcoal canister may be to blame.....
Not to mention several sites that say it's main goal is emissions oriented...
On a side note, it says the filter should be replaced every 30,000miles and mine hasn't been replaced for over 50,000 miles......
.......lines and allI can not find a single resource that says it improves gas mileage, however they all mention that if you are getting bad gas mileage the charcoal canister may be to blame.....
Not to mention several sites that say it's main goal is emissions oriented...
On a side note, it says the filter should be replaced every 30,000miles and mine hasn't been replaced for over 50,000 miles......
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 13,748
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by FLYNLOW92rs
Well i have decided to go the route that 25thRSS mentioned and just completely remove this thing...............lines and all
I can not find a single resource that says it improves gas mileage, however they all mention that if you are getting bad gas mileage the charcoal canister may be to blame.....
Not to mention several sites that say it's main goal is emissions oriented...
On a side note, it says the filter should be replaced every 30,000miles and mine hasn't been replaced for over 50,000 miles......
Well i have decided to go the route that 25thRSS mentioned and just completely remove this thing........
.......lines and allI can not find a single resource that says it improves gas mileage, however they all mention that if you are getting bad gas mileage the charcoal canister may be to blame.....
Not to mention several sites that say it's main goal is emissions oriented...
On a side note, it says the filter should be replaced every 30,000miles and mine hasn't been replaced for over 50,000 miles......
Originally posted by ShiftyCapone
Well change your fuel filter. Since you have an LS1 swap you have no need for the canaster anyways. I bet yours even isn't connected.
Well change your fuel filter. Since you have an LS1 swap you have no need for the canaster anyways. I bet yours even isn't connected.
The canister has a vaccum line going from the TB to the canister and Roy installed it that way.......So it looks like i'm gonna have to do some detective work to see it it's actually connected to the tank because i'm not sure where the line runs on a 4th gen tank.....
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by FLYNLOW92rs
I mean the filter in the charcoal canister....
The canister has a vaccum line going from the TB to the canister and Roy installed it that way.......So it looks like i'm gonna have to do some detective work to see it it's actually connected to the tank because i'm not sure where the line runs on a 4th gen tank.....
I mean the filter in the charcoal canister....
The canister has a vaccum line going from the TB to the canister and Roy installed it that way.......So it looks like i'm gonna have to do some detective work to see it it's actually connected to the tank because i'm not sure where the line runs on a 4th gen tank.....
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
don't know about LT1 tank, but it is kinda funny you have a Full LS1 drivetrain yet an LT1 tank
oh well, anyone with a 4th gen can pipe in and say if the charcoal is up front or not, that should answer .... fourth gen LT1 that is.
oh well, anyone with a 4th gen can pipe in and say if the charcoal is up front or not, that should answer .... fourth gen LT1 that is.
Originally posted by Drakar
don't know about LT1 tank, but it is kinda funny you have a Full LS1 drivetrain yet an LT1 tank
don't know about LT1 tank, but it is kinda funny you have a Full LS1 drivetrain yet an LT1 tank
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by Drakar
oh well, anyone with a 4th gen can pipe in and say if the charcoal is up front or not, that should answer .... fourth gen LT1 that is.
oh well, anyone with a 4th gen can pipe in and say if the charcoal is up front or not, that should answer .... fourth gen LT1 that is.
Originally posted by ShiftyCapone
I will check mine tomm and report back.
I will check mine tomm and report back.
If not, I'm gonna head down to where i'm keeping my car and check it out......
Is it going to cause the TB any harm if i just plug the hole where it sucks in the vapors from the canister?
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by FLYNLOW92rs
Is it going to cause the TB any harm if i just plug the hole where it sucks in the vapors from the canister?
Is it going to cause the TB any harm if i just plug the hole where it sucks in the vapors from the canister?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 13,748
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Well to help clear up the LT1 fuel tank stuff I looked at my car. There seems to be no charcoal canister that I can see from under the hood. Now that doesn't mean that it is not hidden inside a fender well or not. However, there are 3 lines that run out of the tank. Feed, return and a line that ends in a vacuum connection to this diverter valve. The other line goes to the TB so I think it is some sort of evap device. So because of your LT1 tank, your evap could very well still be still functional. Now whether or not an LS1 car has one is the next question.
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Charcoal canister on the 1995 TA was in the back on the driver's side IIRC.
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Car: '90 RS
Engine: 377 LSX
Transmission: Magnum T56
Originally posted by 377Z
Charcoal canister on the 1995 TA was in the back on the driver's side IIRC.
Charcoal canister on the 1995 TA was in the back on the driver's side IIRC.
Well that settles it..........Roy re-installed my Charcoal canister.....
Here are the pictures from todays expedition to find out the trust.........
You can also see all the problems that charcoal canister is causing me while i'm trying to re-route my CAI
Here are the pictures from todays expedition to find out the trust.........
You can also see all the problems that charcoal canister is causing me while i'm trying to re-route my CAI
Would it cause any damage to simply plug the hole on the side of the TB that leads from the charcoal canister?
Also what about installing a breather on the fuel vapor line itself and not messing with the relief valve?
Thanks
Also what about installing a breather on the fuel vapor line itself and not messing with the relief valve?
Thanks
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From: Pensacola, FL
Car: 1999 Saturn SL2
Engine: 4 cylinder
Transmission: 4-speed automatic
I'd like to chim in what I've found. This is a post by Vader about the EVAP charcoal canister and its effects on fuel milage:
To be fair, this is the only resource I have seen that says it affects gas milage but it does sound very feasible to me.
I'm not certain of your locale as described in your profile - Whether you're in an ozone-rich area like Los Angeles or Chicago, or in Ozone Park, NY, near an electrostatic generator, or the upper stratosphere, but if you live where ambient temperatures are relatively high and/or at higher altitudes (where the vapor pressure of gasoline is relatively high compared to barometric pressure), fuel evaporation can account for 5-9% of average fuel use. Stated another way, in a 16-gallon tank, that's 1.4375 gallons of fuel lost to evaporation in ten days.
According to C.A.R.B. statistics (not as if they would LIE or anyting), a warm day and an uncontrolled fuel tank can account for 11½ ounces of liquid fuel evaporation in a single day. In ten days, you'll lose about a gallon at that rate of evaporation. With a functioning EVAP system, those losses can be reduced to about 2.6%, or only 3 ounces of liquid fuel lost in that same 10-day period instead of nearly a gallon.
Having a functioning EVAP canister can recover that fuel "loss" to propel your vehicle instead of evaoprating off the most volatile components. It also keeps the most volatile components in the system, so your total energy per gallon of fuel is maintained. Losing volatility is similar to using unnecessarily higher octane, in that less energy per gallon is produced.
Low emissions and high power are not mutually exclusive ideas. The most powerful engines tend to be the most efficient ones at any given level of displacement.
According to C.A.R.B. statistics (not as if they would LIE or anyting), a warm day and an uncontrolled fuel tank can account for 11½ ounces of liquid fuel evaporation in a single day. In ten days, you'll lose about a gallon at that rate of evaporation. With a functioning EVAP system, those losses can be reduced to about 2.6%, or only 3 ounces of liquid fuel lost in that same 10-day period instead of nearly a gallon.
Having a functioning EVAP canister can recover that fuel "loss" to propel your vehicle instead of evaoprating off the most volatile components. It also keeps the most volatile components in the system, so your total energy per gallon of fuel is maintained. Losing volatility is similar to using unnecessarily higher octane, in that less energy per gallon is produced.
Low emissions and high power are not mutually exclusive ideas. The most powerful engines tend to be the most efficient ones at any given level of displacement.
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From: Pensacola, FL
Car: 1999 Saturn SL2
Engine: 4 cylinder
Transmission: 4-speed automatic
How can you verify this? Did you actually pull the tank and check the gas level or something similarly as accurate? Please tell me you aren't basing that on just the gauge. Also, what's the climate like where you live?
I'm not trying to call BS on you, I'm just asking. :lala:
I'm not trying to call BS on you, I'm just asking. :lala:
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From: Glen Allen, VA
Well if the evaporation was so significant don't you think It would be near empty by now? You can simply rock the car and hear how much gas is left in it and it's pretty full. If it's still full after that long, it's not going to do hardly anything when you are filling up on a weekly basis.
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From: Pensacola, FL
Car: 1999 Saturn SL2
Engine: 4 cylinder
Transmission: 4-speed automatic
Again, perhaps there are more variables that are not being taken into consideration here. If your car is parked in a (semi)cooled garage, I doubt the effect of fuel evaporation would be nearly as noticable if you left it outside in the sun all day long.
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