cgb

This is crazy... All I said was that I ( myself, me, no one else implied ) was not a big fan of alum engines...

What I should have said was that I have seen problems with aluminum blocks using iron liners / or bore inserts, as the LS1 does. As far as I know, the things wouldn't even take much more than a hone because they were so thin, but if I remember correctly they were supposed to fix that to make 'em able to bore to 15-20 thousandths in '99 or '00 model year.


Have no problem w/ alum heads. I'm not old, and new technology doesn't bother me..for the most parts ( cell phones are the devil's creation LMAO )


I love how people on this site take a post, and imply so many things to it....

This is hot rodding...it's a PERSONALIZED hobby...or pursuit...it would be boring if everyone had the same opinion.


And I've fought my wars too....and had my share of hardships...and I wouldn't vote for Kerry for 6th grade Student Council...

A skinny, sober Ted Kennedy is exactly what we need DC....okay....

ljnowell

Thats how I feel, the last thing this country needs is another new england liberal. Whats even more sad than the people that support kerry, though, is the people that will vote for him just to get rid of Bush. Thats one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

DrDanimalSize

Ummm...... I vote for a 406 'cause they sound cooler IMHO

blacksheep-1

OK truce:
I'll be putting together a 400SBC soon, but if I had the $$ I would definately look into a carbed LS-1.

http://www.fl-thirdgen.org/blacksheep-1/camaro.mov

CAUTION: I accelerate for liberals

Irocbanshee

I read thru most of this post & the arguing back & forth which is better. I have been shopping around as well. I have a bare 400 block in my garage, but thought of doing the ls1 or even ls6 swap into my iroc.

I am still going to do the 400 w/ the HSR and a procharger. I am going to probably put a T56 behind it as well as a 12bolt out back. I feel I can get a 500-600hp car with equally as impressive Torque numbers.

I then plan to get another 3rd gen & do the LS swap into it...but thinking now...I would stroke that baby out...427 all the way...and procharge it too!!

:hail: :hail:

Either way...both cars will be very impressive!! I think it comes down to personal preference and your pocket book. Everyone is going to have their own opinion.

scottland

when people you know, and went to high school with, start coming home in body bags, because of bush's pointless war in Iraq, you would change your tone.

Plenty enough justification for me to vote soley against bush

blacksheep-1

This is gonna get good here shortly.........................

MrDude_1

arguing about politics over the internet is pointless.

think about this.

if the person you're talking to is feeble minded enough to change his mind, based upon what someone on the internet said, dont you think that person will change their mind again depending on who talked to them last?






on a side note: people in the military seem to love bush. i have yet to meet someone on active duty that doesnt like him. *shrug*


but this is a car website.

drop the political crap

cam-

:werd:

One thing we can all agree on

ljnowell

I will only give that ridiculous statement one reply.

People I know are fighting over there. They risk thier lives every day. Some have made it home, some havent. They are proud of what they do. If they died, I would not change my tone. I would be even more driven to see the war out. Your response is typical of americans nowadays. You expect something for nothing, and you want it now. War is hell. People die. Nothing we can do about that, but fight as hard as we can, and win. If you truly have friends dying over there, then you are disgracing thier memory by trying criticize what they died for.

Pointless? You must not understand global politics. Or the fact that a peaceful, democratic Iraq will be a huge step towards stability in the middle east. No, its too damned easy to sit and criticize what you dont know, or dont understand, than it is to become knowledgeable of the situation. Dont believe what you hear in Michael Moore movies or from liberal news anchors, its biased garbage. Read the reports, study the facts, and make an informed decision before you vote. Its definately something that John Kerry doesnt want you to do.

You cant quit fighting because some people have died. Do you have any idea how many people died in Somalia? How many did Clinton let get killed in Bosnia? There wasnt nearly the justification to go there, but we did. I am guessing you held the same stance then?

Keep voting unintelligently and uninformed. Its exactly what the Democratic Party wants from you.

Thunderstruck

Did you know that the (3) largest companies that
Theresa Heinz Kerry owns are off- shore

Listening to Kerry would make you think that he supports keeping jobs in this Country.

Funny thing, you will never hear him talk about
the old ladies businesses. Seems a little hypocritical
doesn't it ?

scottland

Yep.



And did you ever hear of a little company called Halliburton.

We could go on and on.
so lets not.

back to cars.

pasky

http://www.politicalbattlefield.com

Lets keep this a car site guys.

ljnowell

Yeah, if I remember right thats the ONLY company that submitted a bid on the job in Iraq. Because they are the only company that is equiped to handle the job. Of course Michael Moore left that out. He probably also forgot to mention that Bill Clinton used Halliburton in both Somalia and Bosnia too. Guess that was wrong then too huh? Keep listening to that garbage!

cam-

You guys are wrecking a great thread. Please PM each other or go elsewhere to argue about non site related topics. Thanks for understanding

Thunderstruck

Yep, these political posts prove one thing - that both
Liberals AND Conservatives drive 3rd Gen's :lala:

I vote for Monica

Now, let me see....... which is the lesser of the two
evils ???? HHmmm....

ljnowell

I can buy that. And I agree, lets drop this crap, and return the thread back to its original point.

I vote LS1. Not because of the aluminum block, just because I do not like 400 sbc's. Too many bad experiences.

StngKlr

I'll keep with the original LS1 vs. 400 topic here.

If and only if you start out with a good platform for the LS1 swap will it end up being relativly cheap to do. I know 3-4K isnt cheap for most, but I think building a street/strip 400 will get you close to those dollar amounts.

Now, good platform: something that already has a 5.7L TPI (blown or whatever), and a posi rear. With it being a 5.7 allows you to use the fuel pump (with a regulator of some sort, I use a non-adjustable 99 Vette regulator/filter combo ($65)), and the radiator.

Besides the amount of the motor/tranny, you will have to get new motor mounts and tranny crossmember ($250), reg. from above, and have a custom Y-Pipe made ($80). You will most likely have to go with an aftermarket tach ($100+), an electrical to mechanical converter box for the speedo for the 82-89 Camaros, Firebirds I'm not sure ($300). Obviously you will spend more money and time if your platform to build on is lesser than that of a 5.7L car, trust me. I started with a V6 car, but it wasnt all that bad, it just gives you the opportunity to add new things to the car, thus making it much better in the end.

There is more to know about the swap, but its probably been covered already, things like wiring and so on. Just thought I'd chip in and add my experience, a great one at that.

Now, its time to pull the tranny and have it rebuilt. Oh well, it also gives me a chance to put in the 3500 stall I just purchased. It never ends.

cam-

So true.

Heres one for you some old farmer told me.

"There is no there. Only here. Once you reach your so called there you will still be here and simply have thought up a new there that seems so much better than here"

I think of that old guy and laugh quite a bit when I dream up the "next thing" that will finally finish my ride off "proper"
It never ends.

MrDude_1

ok.... lets see...

i HAD a 400SBC.... aftermarket heads, solid roller cam, ect...
i HAD a T56.....


sold both along with my other SBC parts...extra intake, carb, ect... you know, the kind of crap you get stuck with over the years...



and what could i buy, selling used SBC parts?


a LS1/6spd combo....



lol... so yea... the two pretty much are the same cost. and techniclly, yea, i am going to be slower with the LS1 right now...

but. this summer, i can drive it from here to texas, to vegas, back up to seattle, head east across the northwest to ohio then back down the eastern seaboard.

and if i break somthing, the only nonstock, not off the shelf parts on the car are the fuel lines, a couple wires, motor mounts, and exhaust.


and at the same time, half the people in this thread are drooling.
(the other half probly think im retarded for getting a LS1 lol)



btw, i have to wait to get the final weights, but i think i took almost 300 pounds out of the car, without removing any functionality.

ME Leigh

Uh yeah, like that will ever happen, atleast not for 10 years, 50,000 American's dead, and a whole generation of Iraqi's dead.

Do you know why they had an "evil" viscious dictator there, to keep the peace.

THEGENERAL

:edit: not argueing about political crap.....

MrDude_1

HOLY FUGGIN CRAP GUYS!


ITS A ****ING CAR BOARD.

GO BACK AND EDIT YOUR DAMN POSTS, AND KEEP THE POLITICAL CRAP TO YOURSELVES.

I REALLY DONT GIVE A FU*K WHAT YOUR OPINION ON ANYTHING POLITCAL IS, AND FRANKLY IF YOU DONT STOP IT NOW, WITH NO REPLYS, THIS IS GETTING LOCKED.




stop. it. NOW.

ME Leigh

Did Iraq have anything to do with 9/11? No! It was Saudi Arabi that hit us. But why did we do nothing against them? Because the Bush family is very good friends with them.

THEGENERAL

ME Leigh

"If this (USA) were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."

-- President George W. Bush
During a photo-op with Congressional leaders on 12/18/2000.

I'm done, thanks for listening to my blah, blah.

THEGENERAL

Its all an opinion you have yours on the president and i have mine ...

Now if you will excuse me id rather get back to talking about cars instead of argueing over something that has no reason to have ever been brought up in the first place...to you ME Leigh i say good day ....

what have you removed from the car so far to remove that much weight??

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

:rockon: :rockon:

Been contemplating doing the same thing myself...sell all the old outdated hardware and going the LS1 route. I have seen the light...and it is bright!

Good luck with it.

ME Leigh....get a clue, this is a car board homey!

ME Leigh

Oh i have a clue. Do you know what Americans were called in the 1770's, terrorists, thats right we used to be terrorists too. We thought or ourselves as pariots and the british thougt of us as terrorists. Same thing happening now, but the tables are reveresed.

How you you like it if somebody invaded your the US and overthrough George Bush, because they thought he was a bad guy. I'd be pissed, and would go terrorist on their ***.

Back to the topic, LS1 all the way. Its by far the best SBC ever made, and is one of the top five best engines ever made.

With simple bolt on LS1's can make 500hp no problem.

Now what till people get ahold of the LS7, 700+ hp no problem.

doc

Yep, LS1 all the way. My LS1 Camaro SS is so kick-***, I cant believe it was so fast bone stock, got 28 mpg on the xway, and top end was above 160 mph.

With a few bolt ons, the car had 319 RWHP.

Then with heads/cam/exhaust/tuning, it has 400 RWHP, gets about 24 mpg and run in the 11s (if I know how to get a good 60' time). And do maybe 175 mph on top end. Also, and very importantly, the car is very driveable.

cam-

Well guys although I am a strong advocate of the LS1 and have done everyhing to promote its worthiness in this thread you can all now officially call me a "flip flopper" and let the flames begin cause I'm gonna build up the 406 instead. In fact I'm gonna build a whole new car around it so who knows I may yet swap an LS1 into my driver but for now its 406 and dare I say it...

twin turbocharged


Two year build plan but its gonna be sick.
:lala:

MrDude_1

tubular Kmember
tubular A arms
LS1\T56
complete AC delete (will be going to a under dash aftermarket AC system in the future..)
lightweight carpet
lighter new seats
removed one of the amps
removed about 10 lbs of stock wiring. (atleast it seems like it lol)
alum bumpers or possibly no bumpers or possibly thoes tubular bumper cover supports like JERRYWHO made... i havent decided yet.
back section of rear seat removed... bottoms still there.
lighter rims and tires

at the race track, i lose even more weight by running a dynabatt equiv. and prostar skinnys...

im considering buying a fiberglass flat RS hood too, if i cant get this hail dent out... (theres only one)

all in all, that'll lighten up the car a good deal.. lol.

MrDude_1

yea, when i started, i was feelin kinda nervous.. i mean, some of this stuff im never going to be able to buy again... lol.

but it seems to be working out.

MrDude_1

a few friends of mine in the local FBody club are in the 11s, stock internal.
one of them just went MILDLY cammed, and hes now in the mid11s without a tune.

thats cool... for a race motor, id still build a SBC... they're still faster then the fastest genIII motor right now... and much cheaper when you're talking about building single digit motors.

LS1s are better for thoes of us who drive on the street alot more then the track... its all about the application.

cam-

Well thats what it came down to actually. My 87's crate engine is getting a little tired now and a freshening is in order and I thought why not throw in a vortec headed 406 instead? That plan quickly changed to a better head selection such as pro topline or likely trickflow 23 or maybe AFR 190 and then I thought bahh... LS1 or actually LQ9 and it was at that point when I figured I might as well just build a whole new car. The 87 is fully loaded with t-roofs so i figued what the heck why mess around trying to make a race car out of a nice daily driver and because my focus is now on power and performance only and I have the virgin low mile 400 and a t56 it only makes sence to go that route... this time The turbo thing is just a recent idea to acheive the most bang for the buck with disregard for driveability. Besides it wil be a hoot to build

Streetiron85

My own personal plan is to follow the LS1 route. But I'll be putting a built SBC1 engine in there while I'm ironing out the bugs for the "Big Swap". The SBC engine I'll be putting in there ought to be plenty of fun and basically built out of parts that I have laying around already.
The plan is to do the swap in increments, so as to minimize down time.
In Ca the gas tank and tranny have to be included in the package, for legality.
And if each of the steps is approached as a separate project, then it makes the overall project much easier to confront.

...Just a conceptual game plan that you might find useful

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

This thread was locked earllier, I swear....

ME Leigh

Yes it was, some devilish locksmith got his hands on it.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I was promised that you all will behave, and go back and edit out all your political garbage...

REALPOWER

My PAPPY used to own one when he just got married. He got 30 MPG, on OIL. He drove it across some railroad tracks and it broke in half!!

Verviticas

hard water? thats all we have here, its not easy to get soft water. Most bottled water isnt even soft water....

jrg77

So it has come down to the preference on Aluminum or Cast iron for the block in relation to preference in the LS1 or 400 block.

What about the LQ9? It is essentially the same as the LS! only in larger displacement and with a cast iron block.

I would think it is the preferable engine.

Jason

cam-

Did you read this whole thread

Yeah I guess up here hard water is the norm with all the chlorine and so on they put into it. I hear that distilled water is the best choice for aluminum use and even cast iron as it is less likely to "gunk up" and clog your system.

LQ9 would be my first choice and I do have mt eyes peeled for one for a future project.

Streetiron85

Or you can get an aftermarket alum SBC1 block, with +.5" deck ht, if you really want one (and can afford it) and build a big inch sleeper/monster.

For my purposes, The deck is stacked in favor of the LS1 because of the heads, and the weight savings of the alum block is an additional benefit.
But there are advantages to the LQ9 as well that make it an option worth considering.
Unfortunately in my state, swapping a truck engine is illegal, so that's ruled out.

So many choices... All of them good ones.

Fuel consumption is a major factor in my own equation... Nearly as much as HP...

jrg77

Well in the short term I have cast my lot with the 400 block crowd. If/when I go 4th gen or C5 expect to see a LQ9 bored and stroked and ready for action!

Jason

cam-

Just bought an LS1 MM6 Whoot!

FullSendRacing

Sorry for this long winded post, I've been researching this stuff for the past 6 months getting ready for a motor upgrade.

I was quite set on getting a set of AFR 195s and a Holley Stealth Ram for my 355 smallblock, and throwing a 6-speed behind it. My motor has a good bottom end, and ~25k miles on it.... then I saw what LS1/t56 combos are going for on ebay

All you guys are talking about how cheap it is to build a gen 1 smallblock, I don't agree. With the 3 things I just listed, I'd be well over $5k, and have a car with probably 300-350 hp, drives great, and gets good mileage.

On the other hand, I can get a lightly used LS1/t-56 for $4k with all accessories. drop it right in, spend the extra money on a cam and some good headers, and now I've got a 400+ hp motor that drives even better, gets even better mileage, AND weighs 150 pounds less. And wow! I have an extra 355 motor left over!

that's right.... you figured it out.... the running drop-in LS1/t56 would cost me less than just the heads, tranny, and fuel system to upgrade my motor, and it'd still probably fall short.

For anyone who is concerned about the terrible weight distribution of our cars, the LS1 is a no-brainer. Mr_Dude says he dropped 300 lbs, and I'm sure his car is still front heavy, but it must be a lot better.


Also on the alum/iron argument.... isn't the C5R 7-liter an aluminum motor? They obviously are confident in the strength of the alum block.

pasky

I'd love to see you just "Drop it right in."

FullSendRacing

you'd love to see me do it? ok stop by. I'll even give ya a beer or two =)

option 1
to put heads on my motor, I gotta take it apart. To put the HSR on my motor, I gotta rewire a bunch of stuff, run new sensors all over, spend time tuning. To put the T56 in, I gotta get a torque arm, DS, and cross member.

option 2
to do the LS1 I gotta pull my motor and tranny, and drop in the LS1/t56. I gotta rewire a bunch of stuff, change fuel lines and add a regulator. I need motor mounts, cross member, torque arm, custom exhaust.

I'm not running A/C anyway so that's no problem. I'm gonna do the suspension either way, so with less weight in the front it just means lighter springs than I would run with the 355. This is not my daily driver so that's no issue either.

I can't see how one is much more work than the other either way. Seems to me everyone who's done the LS1 swap on this board is happier than a pig in sh_t. The people who talk about how big a pain it is are those who are speculating.

I'm sure there's a couple things I forgot. anything big?

ljnowell

The LS1 definately isnt cheaper than the gen1 sbc. As pasky said, you definately wont just drop it right in. Its a fair amount of work.

Also, if you are using AFR 195s you would need a horrible cam selection to only make 300-350hp. Those heads are good for a lot more than that.