Besides a miracle or nitrous oxide, I mean

Seems like I remember seeing a few guys on this board who had done it, but I forget who.

I'm guessing it takes replacement heads, in addition to the usual cam, intake, and exhaust. Running 13s in a 305 with the factory heads would be pretty impressive.


(( Oh yeah, this should be on street tires too... no big slicks. Maybe I'm just weird this way, but I'd rather run the car with the tires that I drive on the street, so the timeslip represents the capabillity at any time, not just when I bolt slicks on. ))

 

Your car is basically a mechanical athlete. Aerobics and conditioning are important. Get your engine to breathe more air, and it will produce more power. Get the car in a lean, light condition, and it will take less power to accelerate it to speed. How you accomplish either or both of those is up to you. You can take the "couch potato" approach and install nitrous, or do some real, productive work and make the engine more efficient.

HINT: The 13-second cars you'll find on the showroom floor don't have a little blue pill in the trunk.

 

A 13 second 305 motor with stock head castings

Going to need a 4.10-4.56 rear gear ratio and a 3500rpm stall converter for an auto transmission.

Get some sticky "street tires"

 

Actually, if you put the work into the factory heads it would be worth it probably. They are decent flowing heads.

 

First of all what 305 are we talking about(lg4, LB9, L69, L03). This makes a big difference in parts selection because of the induction. Running a carb setup is going to be easiest but with a G92 305 tpi you can get there with out to much trouble. Check out pablos setup. I think he is running a 305 with ported 416's, Blue racer cam, edelbrocke carb, sometype of performence intake, and a full exhaust and hes running 13.6's. Also theres another guy who recently hit the 13's on the drag racing boards you might want to check his setup out aswell. Good Luck.

 

Roughly the same expenditures and methods that would get you near or into the 12s if you used a 4" bore block instead.

$$$$$ + 305 = 13s
same $$$$$ + 350 = 12s

Think "bang for the buck".

 

RB, I thought you were going to say "How to get 13s with a 305? Simple, replace it with a 350 and lie."

 

I'm hoping to be mid 13s at worst with my 305 when I'm done, and that's stock internals

Home-ported LT1 aluminum heads gasket matched to LT1 intake, 208/218 cam, 1 5/8" headers, 3" cat-back, CAI with K&N, conversion to SD (just to eliminate the small MAF, just personal preference, 3.42/3.73 gears with a 3000-3200 stall torque converter. That's the plan anyways.. Was going to go with a 222/232 cam but that's a bit too much for me to tune on a 305

 

Why not go with a cam "somewhere in the middle"? And, I still say, stay with your MAF setup for now. With a cam say 212-218 on the intake and 218-224 on the exhaust, your MAF setup would probably run half decent. Yes, a tuned eprom would help even more. But it isn't going to be as critical as if you had a SD setup.

The only other thing I would add to your formula, is the heads. There is a number of posts on "porting your own heads". And it doesn't have to be a sophisticated porting job either. Some clean-up and un-shrouding will work wonders. Porting is one of those "games" where the 80/20 rule really comes in to play (80% of the results from 20% of the effort).

A REAL nice head for 305s are the aluminum Corvette heads. They retain your 58cc combustion chamber, they are VERY easy to port because they are aluminum, and they already have 1.94/1.50 valves. Aluminum L98 heads get great results with a little clean up and 10 years ago, when there wasn't the proliferation of aftermarket heads like there is today, it was one of the more popular routes to take, even on 350s.

I currently have ported aluminum L98 heads (I bought them off a buddy who had them ported professionally already mind you). The ahd the intakes opened to 180cc to match a 1204 gasket. They flow as good as many of the aftermarket aluminum heads, and not that far off the best heads. And with the 58cc chambers, they give me a nice boost in compression on my L98. I wouldn't swap them off unless I was going to a bigger motor and needed even more flow from a bigger runner (195+)

Check out these two links if you want to learn more about head porting:

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.shtm

http://www.crossfire.homeip.net:81/c...ID=18&CAT_ID=1

With some ported aluminum L98 heads, Comp Cams 218/224 hydraulic roller cam, plus all the mods you mentioned, plus a properly tuned eprom, you would have a killer 305. Desktop Dyno predicts peak TQ just over 400 lb/ft from 3500-4500 rpm and 362HP @5,500 rpm.

The TQ at 2,000 rpm would be around 350 lb/ft, so you wouldn't need as high of a stall converter nor such high gears. 3.23-3.42s and 2,600 rpm stall would be just fine.

 

This would be with an LG4. But, if I ran across a tuned port, roller cam 305/5-speed car, I'd have a hard time passing it up, assuming I had money to pay for it!

At heart I'm still a carb guy though.

Anyway, I've got a set of LG4 heads that have had a 3 angle valve job and some pocket porting. I'd probably try those first and if I didn't get enough performance out of those, I'd go for the vortec upgrade.

 

The XE268 would be the ideal grind. Would give same torque (according to DD) and 30HP more, though these numbers are quite exaggerated in DD.

I just happen to have the 222/232 cam here on my floor, and bbtaz happens to have a Crane Compucam 2031 he wants to get rid of. If someone wanted to trade my 222/232 cam for an XE268, I'd have to take it..

 

Headers, full 3" exhaust, dual snorkel or cold air intake, a better intake manifold (such as or GMPP QJet manifold), a much better cam, ported and polished heads with 1.94" intake valves, 3.73 gears with posi, upgraded ignition, higher stall torque converter, some slight carb tuning and suspension work + good tires might get you into the 13s.

If you've got an 85 or below LG4, an electric radiator fan would also help.

If you've got an 84 or below LG4, you've got even more work cut out for you due to an 8.5:1 compression ratio (dished pistons).

Quickest way to 13s with a 305 is NO2.

EDIT: Also, weight reduction should be a high priority as well. A lighter hood, wheels and doors (if you want to go that far) will help a lot. Removing the spare and jack will take some weight off too, if you don't mind taking the chance. Considering picking up an aluminum driveshaft as well.

 

Aluminum heads will knock off another 40-50lbs off the front of the car while adding huge power gains. That's what I'm doing

 

Yes, but if he already has a 305 you gotta add the price of the 350 plus the labor to install it which = more $$$$$. Some of us gotta run what we've got.

 

Labor to install it shouldnt be counted. The big thing is this, if it is all bolt on, go ahead and do it. As long as it will all articulate to a 350. If there is any money in machine work to be spent, or you have to touch the shortblock in any way, just get the 350.

 

A 350 core is $50 - $150.

A basic performance engine rebuild is around $1500 in parts and machine work. I'm not talking about an AutoZone slap-together or a Goodwrench phone company can motor; but not a Pro Stock motor either. Just a good solid reliable short block that's properly prepared to make enough power to get to the 12s, and survive for more than a couple of passes.

A set of good aftermarket heads is $1000.

A roller cam alone is $300.

One must pull an engine from a car and disassemble it, in order to rebuild it. Then one must put it back in afterwards.

Explain how that $50 to $150 for a core, significantly affects the overall project cost; and how it affects the labor involved.

In order to make high horsepower, you need high torque at high RPM; since HP = torque x RPM x a constant.

Torque is a function of thermal efficiency (pretty much the same for any SBC), cubic inches, % cylinder fill (pretty hard to get much past 100% if it's N/A). If torque depends on 3 things, and 2 of them are the same for all motors, it's not hard to see which one you need to change if you want more torque.

HP = torque x RPM x a constant. You can't change the constant (33,000/pi). You can increase torque as described above; or, you can build your motor to run at higher RPM. Higher RPM requires greater expenditure on bottom end parts like cranks and rods, so that they will survive; requires better components in the valve train, so that the valves will be more accurately controlled; and extracts penalties in the form of trading off performance and efficiency at lower RPMs in order to optimize higher RPM operation. All of these thing cost money; in parts, labor, gasoline if the car is a daily driver, maintenance; and shortened life.

Explain how spending more money on a smaller motor to make equal power to the larger one, costs less than that $50 - $150 core charge.

There's nothing wrong with a 305, by itself. If that's all we had to work with, we'd be busily trying to figure out every possible way to make it better. But, we're not in a vacuum here; there are alternatives. The alternative is cheap, plentiful, and costs no more to rebuild (probably less actually) using the same level of components, as the 305. That alternative gives you 45 more cubic inches. See the definitions of torque and HP above.

Once you have to touch the short block, it's pointless and futile to build a 305, if you're looking for the most power per dollar (which is what nearly everybody in this hobby is looking for); since for that tiny cost of a core, you can have the cheapest HP there is.

Look at it a different way: You can spend $2000 or $3000 or $5000 or whatever on either a 305 or a 350. When you get done if all is well, you'll have a motor that produces power according to its displacement. The 350 gives you 15% more of everything. Hmmmm.... I could go to the grocery store and spend a dollar and get a pound of meat; or I could spend a dollar, and get more of exactly the same meat. Which one makes more sense?

Why is it so hard to understand these things about using a 305 short block? What benefit is there in being "different"? What good is that $50 "I've already got it" core, in the big picture?

 

Unless you make mediocre torque at insanely high RPM (ala Honda), so you can report higher HP numbers but at RPMS that no sane person would ever operate their equipment and expect any longevity. That's how Honda can offer a "250HP Pilot SUV". Drive a Pilot at 8,400 RPM all day and see how long the warranty covers you.

 

here ya go, stock 416 heads with a fresh set of valves, bigger cam, etc....more details on my cardomain site as well...

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=264717

 

====================================

here ya go, stock 416 heads with a fresh set of valves, bigger cam, etc....more details on my cardomain site as well...

==============================



Yes! I saw this post just last night. Nice work!

See, it looks to me like you can take a 305 and install vortec heads with a performer manifold, headers, and swap in a moderate aftermarket cam, and run in the 13s without difficulty.

Some guys are getting high 13s with ported 305 heads, so lightly ported vortecs should drop a few more tenths.

And the price for this setup wouldn't be bad either; no big payout for aluminum heads. And everything transfers to a 350 when the 305 gives up the ghost.

 

yeah, but i did it with the stock 416 heads off of an lg4. not a set of vortecs. no porting or polishing, no bowl blending, stock size valves.

 

Right, I'm saying that if you managed it with unported LG4 heads, any joe schmoe (like me) should be able to do it with vortecs.

(let's hope)

 

problem with the vortecs is that the combustion chamber is a 64cc chamber and the regular 305 heads are 58cc and you will lower your c/r. you can get them machined down but that opens up other issues with the intake fitment and stuff.

 

LT1 intake flows more air.
LT1 intake is one piece and quick/easy removal/reinstall
LT1 heads flow as much/more than Vortecs.
LT1 heads raise compression even on a 305
LT1 heads are aluminum (weight, timing, easy port)
LT1 heads, intake, injectors can be had ~$250 shipped

Its not that hard, but its not the easiest swap in the world. There are other parts needed as well and some coolant hose re-routing.

 

Others are right, just a getting a 350 offers the best bang for buck..but building up a 305 can be fun if you don't have the money to spend all at once on a 350. I slowly built up my 305 when I was in college..never had the money for a new engine. I got my LG4 down to a 13.4@101mph and it was very streetable. The bottom end of the motor was all stock with about 100k miles on it. Here's the combo.

Stock heads milled for 9.6:1 comp, pocket porting
Ferrea Valves w/ 3 angle valve job
Comp Cams Roller rockers 1.52 ratio
Crane 274H cam
RPM Airgap intake
600cfm edlebrock carb
HEI ignition w/ recurve kit
1 5/8 hedman LT headers
700-R4 trans w/3000 stall
4.10 gears(over geared slightly) 3.42 or 3.73 would be better

 

See, in this one High Perf. Chevy magazine, they had a 305 project Camaro that they did heads, cam, intake, exhaust, the works. They still only got it down to like a 15.3! That was with an automatic and 3.73(?) gears too.

I couldn't figure out what their problem was, cause I knew that 305s with minor mods could get into the 14s at least. I think this was the "My Generation Camaro" series. Anybody remember this?

 

Dean, the LT1 combo is nice and all, but its just too much to do right away. If your welding job is sub sub standard, or pockets of air form it could crack and then you'd be spilling coolant right into your oil galley! If you want gruesome pictures of that kinda stuff I have it. The original motor in my car came with a cracked water jacket! So it spilled coolant right into the bearings. BAD for motor. VERY bad. I'd be careful with converting LT1 heads. You could run into cracking, or warping problems.

Desktop Dyno is a great tool so long as you understand its limitations and faults. I spent hours trying to build a L98 that accurately produced a dyno sim close to the real thing. And the combo I had to build to do it was nowhere near what the real L98 had.

 

You're assuming hes doing the work himself. You talk about a core, but I didn't see where he said he was rebuilding the engine. He talked about a cam and head swap. So you're saying that $1700 plus labor for the rebuild doesn't significantly affect the project cost?!?!

 

Its the concept of future money spent.

 

I remeber that Muggyjack turned an 8.07 in the 1\8th. That's almost down to the 12's in the 1\4.

Best 305 ET: 8.07 1/8th mile. 85.45 MPH. 1.77 60'

 

try shorter tracks, you might even be able to run in the 12s with ease

 

I remember that well. My opinion of their effort is that they don't know what the fock they're doing. What else could I think?? My first car, an '83 LG4 auto, went 15.3@85 w/NOTHING other than a cheapy $69.00 Summit cam&lifter kit, and "free mods" (tunning).EDIT: Oh, and that was w/185,000 miles!

My second car, an '83 LU5 (crossfire 305) went 14.5 @95 w/nothing other than headers, 5 speed, and exhaust, and "free mods".

That they spent ALL THAT MONEY, and went 15.3 only shows how retarded that mag's staff is, IMO.

 

Car Craft did a 305 (carbed) buildup 5 years ago. I'll scan it in later or Saturday. They got 325hp from a 305. The short version was cam, Vortec heads milled to drop the CR closer to stock, headers. IIRC it moved the torque peak up to around 3,900 so gearing and stall needed changes too.

That "My Generation" Camaro, isn't that the one Shifty wrote in on asking how they even got it running or running well?

 

It's still on the CHP site. Just search for "My Generation Camaro" in google and you'll find it.

I think the worst thing about the whole series was the fact that the ended up buying another 305 to replace their original one which had a cracked block. Granted, the whole point of the article was to get the most out of what they had (or at least I thought that was the goal), which was a 305, but they should have just gone with a 350 anyway after the discovery of the cracked block.

I don't know many people who would replace a 305 with a 305... at least any performance-oriented people.

 

Another strange thing, they built up a 350 to replace the 305, and the new 350 made like 385 hp on the engine dyno. But when they put it in the car, they still only ran something like a 14.7?!!

I was starting to think they must have had some other problem besides the motor. I think the tranny and exhaust were new, so that shouldn't have been the problem. I think they were using the stock air cleaner assembly though, which I'm sure wasn't helping.

Maybe they weren't getting full throttle. I'd definately check that if my "385 hp" engine was only running 14.7. Who knows. I'll have to look for that article sometime to see if they ever found the problem.

 

Yeah those articles made third gens look bad. They should have a bought a cheap L98 car and shown it go 13's with just bolt ons. It would have been cheaper then all of the things they did just to get into the 14's. I remember seeing a guy write in about it saying that V8's suck because he got his turbo laser into the 13's for less than it took them to get their 305 to break a 15.3. CHP responded by saying the 350 they were building will do way better then high 13's. Boy does that make us Chevy guys look stupid.

 

They don't make Third Gens look bad if they do it right. The Car Craft one turned out good, and for a fraction of what CHP put out. IIRC the CHP buildup was definitely not for those on a budget.

 

Take into account that the article was written a while ago. They were using the term "budget" in comparison to what a new LS1 Camaro would have costed them at the time (not sure exactly what that would be, but I'm guessing $20000-$30,000).

However, even with that in mind, it was still a rather unimpressive buildup of a 305. Most of the horsepower that took them into the high 13s came from a 150 shot of nitrous, which doesn't impress me at all... especially when people are getting very close to those numbers N/A. I believe the last time they ran without the juice was a 15.3.

 

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong article, but early 2004 isn't exactly "a while ago".

Had to use the Google cache because the page itself was no longer available, but here's a synopsis of the CC buildup:

www.goingfaster.com/spo/carcraft325hp305.html+325+hp+305&hl=en]http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:niJHFZBhaaIJ:http://www.goingfaster.com/spo/carcr...5+hp+305&hl=en[/URL]

 

Im hoping to get into the 13's with this setup:

Rebuilt bottom end
L69 Heads, Ported, Larger Valves
Summit Camshaft 214/224 .442/.465
1.6 Ratio Roller Tip Rockers, will raise the lift a little more
Edelbrock Permformer Intake and 600cfm Carb
Headers and full 3inch mandrel bent exhaust
T5- 4.03 2.37 1.49 1.00 0.76
3.42 Rear. All that gearing more than makes up for the lack of low end torque in 305's.

Too bad when I get it put in, it will be winter. Gotta wait till spring to get some timeslips.

 

Although I was referring the to CHP article "My Generation Camaro", you are incorrect.

Car Craft did their 325HP 305 article in their magazine in March of 1999. The websites you see around the web about the article are just a summary of the entire thing. It even says that on the page you linked to (although it doesn't work).

I'm still looking for the date on the CHP article.

 

In July I bought a chevy car magazine that had the second of two articles about making a L03 camaro faster.

I think turbo city provided a TBI and tuning. The article I read also addressed some questions from some people from this site. The questions concerned misprints in the 1st article.

The heads were shaved so they would fit. I think they were vortec.

That's all I remember.

 

im sure u've prolly heard of this before, but you could do what im doing with my 305. Im making it 336ci, you bore it .040 over(pistons are only 15$ a peice), and put a 383 crank in. With high compression heads, big valves, and a dual plane manifold, u can easily make 400 hp & 400 fb/tq, and easily run 13's or faster(depending on what else u do). But good luck in what ever u do to your 305 and hope u make in to the 13's

 

What is Chevy’s smallest small block? I think it is a 289, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Could you not use these heads on the 305 to boost the compression?

Just an idea, if your really short of funds.

I would still rather go 5.7 if you could scape up the money.

 

LT1 heads have a 54cc chamber volume. I don't know if there were any V8 heads with smaller chambers than 54cc

 

Well...now I'm being silly but yeah...you can get Combustion Chambers volumes all the way down to 43cc on a SBC.


Chapman 15 deg and 18 deg heads

 

Stock? No milling?

 

Of course. As I said, I may have been thinking of the wrong one.

vBulletin screwed up the link. Copy and paste and you shall see:

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache...5+hp+305&hl=en

And I believe in my original post I did mention it wasn't the full article. Ask and thou shall receive, I have the March '99 handy and can scan it.

 

Yes, please do!

 

Interesting that in that text in the above link, they picked up 20 hp with the addition of a Preformer intake?! I thought the stock LG4/L69 intake was supposed to be pretty good, and the Performer, nothing more than a stock replacement. What gives there?

-Tom

 

I'm sure it's not a fluke; I've seen similar cases in other magazines before. The High Perf. Pontiac mag guys had a L69 TA with headers and exhaust. They then added a Weiand intake and picked up 2 mph in the quarter mile (apx. 20 hp gain).