91GTABird

I have a local preformance shop that said he will rebuild my flat tap 350 with new bearing, freeze plugs, etc. and using silv-o-lite rods and pistons for $800. Thats balanced and a ready to run shortblock. This is bored and honed and made to a 355.

Should i do it?

More info if you want.

IROCaholic

That sounds about right to me. It really just depends on if you feel comfortable with the people doing the work. Check out there facilities and make sure that they are big enough to re-emberse you if they screw up on anything. Most small engine shops wont except any liability when something breaks so its always good to do business with someone who makes enough to cover their ***. As long as they build it right that sounds like a good price to me.

RB83L69

That's yerbasic grocery cart rebuild stuff, for somebody that wants the cheeeeeeepest thing that will run. Not performance. If you're intending to run the motor hard, it's the wrong stuff.

I used to live in Memphis. What shop is this? Feel free to use the PM function to keep that sort of thing off the boards.

91GTABird

Thats what i was worried about RB. It was all fine and dandy until i found Silv-o-lite pistons in SDPC catalog for $7 a peice and that threw up a flag. He said to use my parts will be $600.

He has a great rep at the dirt track and does most of the guys "late-models" engine. Its Hi-Permance Engines out of covington. His name is Richard Gray. You of him?

RB83L69

Yes I know him, rather well in fact. He's out in Brighton, actually; my little sister lives within a mile of his shop. He's one of the best.... actually, I would have sent you to him, had you said most anybody else. I used him for all my machine work from the 70s up until I left that town.

He's got a good shop, and a great reputation. I have no doubt that if you bought that motor from him, it would do as well as such a thing ever would; and if there was a problem, he'd stand behind his work. He's that kind of a guy.

But, that's not a performance build. It's yerbasic just-get-it-back-on-the-road-as cheeeeep-as-possible motor, priced to bid it against the other cheeeeepo low-bidders that call around and say "How much [meaning of course, how little] will you charge me for a 350 short block?". He, like anybody else that picks up the phone and hears that, knows perfectly well that if he says "$900" but Memphis Engine Rebuilders or Conlee says "$800", he doesn't make a sale. Basically, it's competitive with any of the low-bid rebuilders.... both in price, and in the parts labor used in it.

Pick his brain a little bit, and see what he can do, with a little better quality parts. For example, I'll bet that $800 still has the original rod bolts, 8 random rods from wherever, a stock cast crank reground, etc. etc. See what he'd charge to build it with ARP rod bolts, some kind of better rods that are all a FACTORY SET either from a good factory motor or aftermarket, align-hone the block, better pistons than the cheapest replacement cast rebuilder low-bid stuff, torque plate cyl hone, etc. etc. etc.

You might be REAL surprised in the Quality difference between a $800 short block and, say, a $1200 one. In longevity, performance, durability, and every other aspect of satisfaction.

Rule #1 of buying performance machine work: NEVER EVER buy from the low bidder, solely on the basis of price.

91GTABird

You get what you pay for.

Ive known richard for a while mainly because i live right down the road from him. I live on lucy kelly so im assuming your sister does to. Ive grew up in munford , drummonds and brighton and now reside in brighton. Small world.

So what do you suggest i do? The block i have is a complete pre-76 shortblock. Rods, pistons, crank, etc.

RB83L69

Actually, she lives in one of those little neighborhoods off of Fain Rd. not far from Atoka-Idaville Rd. I guess that road Richard is on is, what, ¾ mile from Atoka-Idaville; and he's maybe ½ mile at most from Fain?

Yup, small world indeed. Anyway:

What are your goals? Needless to say, if you're the phone company and you've got this van that should be out on the roads producing revenue but it's not because some one of the monkeys that drives it sometimes let it run out of oil and now it's just a parking lot ornament, your approach would be quite a bit different from a guy that wants a 12-second 3500-lb street car; which would be different again from the guy with a 2400-lb gutted/caged/glass-bodied strip car running a weight-to-CID class. I'm guessing you're probably not the phone co., and not the race car owner; and probably aren't looking to get to the 12-second mark either. Kind of somewhere in netween all that.

For a few coins more than the price of having a stock crank reground, you can get a "cast steel" crank, much much stronger than stock even if not up to "racing" standards; like, less than $200. Same for rods.... for a couple of coins more than buying ARP bolts and installing them into your stock rods and doing the obligatory re-work, you can get a whole set of brand-new rods. Talk to Richard about Eagle or Scat or Lunati parts.

I'd suggest either forged or hypereutectic postons; not the low-bid plain cast ones like you usually see from Badger or Silv-O-Lite. Those won't stand much hot-rodding.

As far as your block, a block is a block is a block is a block. As long as yours isn't wasted, and doesn't have any of The Problems so common in 70s blocks with their non-existsent quality control(starter bolt hole location or lifter bore misalignment or just general excessive core shift) then Richard can bore it, torque-plate-hone it, align-hone it, zero-deck it to your particular pistons (highly recommended especially if you're going for higher compression), and otherwise prep it for you. And of course assemble it if you don't feel comfortable doing that.

First thing though, is establish a goal, and a budget; and go from there. DO NOT buy the cheeeeepest motor you can find, no matter who it comes from.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

I wouldnt trust an $800 rebuilt short block as far as I could throw it and the car you put it in!!!!

With engines and machine work you really do get what you pay for

I'm not a shop, I build engines on my own, out of my house for me, friends, family, and others that hear about my work. The only reason i'm not working out of a speed shop is cause I dropped out of high school, and aint got my G.E.D yet. W/O the HS or G.E.D you can't take the ASE test.

For a street, mild race build I charge $600 in just labor to build a long block. I do blue print everything (that word gets throw around way too much by people that don't even know it's meaning), weight match the bottom end parts, etc Plus all parts and machine work prices.

The machining bill is around $290 for.... .....hot tank, bore & hone, pin fit pistons, install cam bearings & frost plugs, and turn crank, add $125 for balancing

$210 For the cheapest rebuild kit I would ever use in a 350. That's FM hyper pistons, moly rings, FM cam, rod and main bearings, oil pump, brass frost plugs, and gasket set.

$80 for the cheapest cam and lifter kit I would ever use. $150 is the price on most of the hyd. flat tappet cam kits I use

$34 for a timing set, $5 for oil pump pick up for stock oil pan.

I will not build an engine with stock rod bolts. I like buying the re.cond GM X rods, thats been weight matched, ARP bolts installed, and big ends resized for $100-110. Or atleast put ARP bolts in your persons stock rods, but that only saves a few buck. When you put in new bolts, the big ends have to be resized. Thats $60 at the machine shop, and $30-40 for the ARP bolts.

I really don't even like turning stock GM cranks unless they are forged, or hard to get an aftermarket crank cheap for. On a 350 I use Scat 9000 cranks. They are cast, but stronger than GM forged and lighter than GM cast. Turning a crank is in the $85-95 range. The new scat 9000 cranks are $180-190.

That's around $1,445 total for the bottom of the line performance short block.

I say bottom of the line not as a bad thing. Just it aint never gonna be a 8,000 rpm 650 hp beast.

Parts like forged pistons will bump the price up $150-600 more depending on brand and type of forged piston. Aftermarket forged crank will add another $350-900 depending on brand and type.
Main studs will add another $30-75
windage screen and baffled high qt. oil pan adds another $90-200 based on pan and tray type

91GTABird

I was looking at the Scat 9000 cranks for $189.

Is there anything wrong with the Goodwrecnh 350? I was thinking about that but i dont want the heads or cam.


What im looking for.
$2000 budget
250-300hp

RB83L69

You don't want he "Goodwrench 350". It is a POS. Basically, it's GM's answer to the phone company van situation.

It might make 260 HP on a stand in a dyno cell, with a perfect exhaust, perfect air intake system, minimum accessories, etc. etc. Installed in a car, it will make exactly what those same parts, part number for part number, made all through the 70s. Which is, about 180-190 HP at the crank. Alot of 305s, factory stock ones even, will run circles around it. And when I say "the same parts:, I mean the same pistons, the same heads, and the same cam; all of the things that determine how much power it will make. The bottom end (crank and rods) doesn't make power, it merely survives whatever power the upper half of the motor makes; and what's in that motor, is designed to survive a bunch of obsolete smogger crap that's ultimately cheeeep for GM to produce in Mexico. It is not a performance piece in any manner way shape or form, and won't be without spending a good bit more again to improve it, than it cost in the first place.

It is not the answer if you're looking for any kind of performance. Sure, it's a new block and all that; but it's a mighty expensive way to get all of that. And, you definitely DON'T want the pistons that are in that.

Those cheap Scat cranks are the type of thing I was talking about. They're stronger than stock (such as the "Goodwrench 350"), but not a whole lot of $$$$.

Talk to Richard and see what he has to say. He's the best resource you could have for this.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I'm not a chaep bastard by any means, but I had budgets that dictated where money could be spent for the most bang for your buck. when I blew up my 305 I went down to the local engine builder and picked up an $800 shortblock he had on the floor, .030 over, factory cast crank/rods, and KB hyperutectics-non-balanced. That motor lasted me 2 seasons of bracket racing-every weekend-and thousands of street miles in those 2 years. I never once babied that motor, before I pulled it and sold it, pulled the mains and a few rods, could'nt even tell it'd been run it was that clean-sold it for exactly what I had in it.

Same with the motor I got now, you can see specs in sig. $1K is what I have in shortblock. I did'nt expect it to live with the power it's making, BUT I shift within reason- 6K. Unless you have a big wild race motor, there is really no practical reason at all to shift any higher than 6-6500 depending on your set-up. Winding them tight is when you start pushing things to the limit and are asking for things to break.

Buy the best you can afford, that's all you can do. As long as the shop is reputable/experienced and you operate your engine within "normal" limits it will have a long happy life. This is only the second year on my 388 with the completely stock shortblock internals, it still runs the same number every pass (weather depending) still gets crudy mpg & oil psi is where it's always been- temp is too, also compression checks show all cylinders within 4psi at the most extreme difference. I will be sending some oil in for an analyse just to get the exact scoop on the internal condition, but I've cracked every filter at oil changes and have never found anything to be concerned with.


Going all forged is great when you can afford it, application dictates how you should treat your foundation. Just dont think you cant have a realible shortblock for $800.