Im looking at an 83 T/A w/ 41,000 miles on it for $3,800. It is mint inside and out. Everyone says stay away from cross-fire. Why? What is wrong with them? They say when they DO run, they run good. I dont get it. Is a Q-jet better? Any light shed on this is appreciated. Thanks guys

 

Crossfire Injection is not that bad. For a stock motor, it's fine and should be fairly reliable. The problems come in when you try to modify it. The computer is very slow and not easily made to compensate for heads, cam changes. The throttle bodies and the intake passages are very small too. That is not to say that Crossfire can't be a good performer, but it is more costly and more difficult to modify than a carb. or TPI setup. But if you're looking for something to leave stock, or very close to stock and would like something a little different, then go for it.

------------------
89 Transam GTA, 350TPI, auto, 3.27 rear, dual cats, gray.
Magnaflow cat-back,
K&N open element,
Best E.T. 14.63@95mph

 

I've heard they are prone to vacccume leaks

 

Now, the Cease-Fire isn't all that bad, but the horrible thing about it [which isn't all that bad] in the winter, the throttle bodies freeze up too. The other stuff mentioned can be a problem as well.

-ws6formula-

------------------
1989 Pontiac Formula WS6
69,000 miles.
------------------------
305 TBI, 4.10 gears, SLP Zexel/Torsen Limited Slip Differential, 700r4 Corvette Servo, LT4 Hot Cam/Valvesprings, GM Aluminum Driveshaft, 2700 RPM Stall, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold, Turbocity TB. Ran on 6-19-2001 again: UPDATED: 14.1 @ 97.68 mph. Dyno'd Bone Stock @ 172.6 rwhp, 266 ft-lbs. of rw-torque.

 

NO WS6,

The throttle bodies DO NOT freeze up in the winter. I have driven my car in the friggin' freezing winters of Maine, and never had a TB "freeze up" (?) What in the heck would "freeze" exactly!? Nonsense.

TransamGAT350 pretty much hit the nail on the head. In stockish form, it is a pretty strong running package. I put Edelbrock headers on my origional 305, did the "free hp" tricks, and ran a 14.5 @95 in the 1/4. Not bad IMO. Once you really start modding the engine, however, the intake does become the most restrctive part of the system. There are options. If you go to this site;

http://www.enteract.com/~mikew/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi

you can get all the info and support you should need on the CFI system. But FYI high output intake options are the Offenhauser Cross ram ($235 thru P.A.W.) and the X-RAM intake. About the same price and can be found here;

http://www.x-ram.com/

I wouldn't be afraid to get the car, esspecially considering the condition you mentioned. I don't regret buying mine for a second.

------------------
'83 Trans Am: 400 CID oil burning junkyard long block, 224/234 crane cam, Summit aluminum roller rockers, hand ported intake, home bored 2.09" (53mm) throttle bodies, MSD 454 injectors(75 lb/hr), Holley 255LPH fuel pump, custum modded FPR, Edelbrock TES headers, SLP 3" stainless steel cat back, stock ECM & chip. Borg/Warner T-5 World Class, 12" Corvette rotors and clipers, GTA 16" wheels, South Side Machine subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, 3.45 ring and pinion, Alpine sound.
Best E.T. 13.532
Best MPH 102.24

 

Nonsense huh? Well I know mechanics that owned cease-fires when they first came out, and thats what they told me their problem was, along with the other stuff. I don't remember exactly what they said, but basically theirs froze up at the throttle bodies. If you don't believe me well that's ok too. I also found the same thing in a book about the Camaro's history. If I can find someone with that book, I'll upload it.

By the way, when I say "cease-fire" I don't mean that I hate the injection system. I think it's pretty good.

Hmmmm....guess you're just the expert on CFI since you have one and you live in Maine. Your car might not freeze up, but people call me at work asking why their car won't start, so I'm going to have to believe what I hear elsewhere. I guess since it never happened to you: you won't take that fact into consideration. The winters here in Indiana are horrible too.

Ever hear of the THERMAC system? It's designed to take heat from a TBI/Carb car's exhaust manifold and heat up the throttle body/carb using vaccum lines and the air cleaner.. I don't think CFI cars have the thermac system. [Maybe a variation?]

-ws6formula-

------------------
1989 Pontiac Formula WS6
69,000 miles.
------------------------
305 TBI, 4.10 gears, SLP Zexel/Torsen Limited Slip Differential, 700r4 Corvette Servo, LT4 Hot Cam/Valvesprings, GM Aluminum Driveshaft, 2700 RPM Stall, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold, Turbocity TB. Ran on 6-19-2001 again: UPDATED: 14.1 @ 97.68 mph. Dyno'd Bone Stock @ 172.6 rwhp, 266 ft-lbs. of rw-torque.

[This message has been edited by ws6formula89 (edited July 05, 2001).]

 

In my thirdgen books, more than once it's mentioned that one of the primary reasons for GM's abandonment of X-fire was because of the freezing issues. I've never owned one, so it's not from personal experience, but I've read about it many times so I have no reason to doubt that it's a real problem.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

I don't disbelieve that you got that information somwhere, I just find it hard to believe that it happens. Reason: What exactly is "freezing"?? There are no venturi's to freeze. Does a solid block of ice form in the throttle bore and choke it off?? None of that makes sense. It the ECM "freeezing"? THAT I could see happening. These ECM's are not the highest tech unit!
That's a lame sentence. I don't live in Maine any more, I live in Park City, Utah. I do consider myself to be pretty knowledgable about the CFI system, since I've owned one for 10 years, and I've done pretty much every mod possible to the stock unit. How long have you owned one? How many CFI's have you modded? I never claimed to be an "expert", but at least I have first hand experience.
??? There are SOOO many reasons why a car won't start. And if "carburetor icing" is occuring, it DEFINITELY is NOT occuring while the car is not running, causing a no start situation.


I certainly have heard of the Thermac system, and the CFI most definitely DOES have a fully funcioning Thermac. If you knew more about CFI, you would be well aware of that design feature. As a matter of fact, the Thermac is identical to the one that came on YOUR TBI 305! Which brings me to my final queston; If the CFI "freezes up" (you still haven't defined that term but I'm assuming you are talking about "carburetor Icing") Then why doesn't your TBI "freeze up" too? They function exactly the same, and they even use the same injectors.

[This message has been edited by Tom 400 CFI (edited July 05, 2001).]

 

Freezing over is not a problem common up north. There it gets cold enough that there is no real moisture content in the air. That problem is far more common in the south. The near freezing air increases speed through the venturis and cools them to sub freezing. The moisture then turns to ice. This is a problem common to all cross ram manifolds. The manifold doesn't heat well and you have more venturi space being used. It takes a given amount of air to idle the engine. Spread it across two throttle bodies instead of one and you have to close each one more. The more closed they are the more likely they are to freeze. The TBI system does not suffer as much because it has a more conventional manifold that holds heat better and has a single throttle body.

Just because you haven't had problems with something doesn't mean countless of other people did not experience a problem. If only GM could test something one place and if it worked on one car delcare it a foolproof idea.

 

ws6formula89, stop making a fool out of yourself man, clearly you know nothing about the CFI system, everything you say is wrong or you have heard it from someone else who doesn't know **** about it. They're the same assumptions that everybody else has who doesn't know the CFI system, and you added one w/ the insane assumption of freezing

I'm w/ Tom, carbs can freeze in the winter IF!!! the thermac system is removed/not working.
The TB's don't have a float and the pressure is much higher, no freezing there!

I live in the Netherlands and believe me it get's awfully cold in the winter here, I removed the thermac system and still no freezing.

Do some reading before you speak or talk to other mechanics, the ones you talk to have a brain fade or something.

Marck (sorry, got a vette)





[This message has been edited by FAQman (edited July 05, 2001).]

 

Group,

I have owned my Xfire since new in 1984 and never experienced a freezing problem of any kind. I live in the Windy City and have started the car in sub zero temperatures. The motor has been the most reliable of the subsystems. The trans was the biggest pain in the butt, and I am talking about the infamous 4+3. But itss been pretty reliable and it has 89k miles on it. I recently updated the heads and cam and was able to measure static compression of over 185lbs in each cylinder and the oil pan was spotless. And as Tom and Marck stated, there's quite a bit of free power to be had if you do the work yourself so you can surprise the hell out of guys like WS6 Pontiac.

------------------
Dominic Sorresso
84 Vette Z-51/ 4+3
325hp/425lbftTQ, Xfire Induction

[This message has been edited by hyprspd (edited July 05, 2001).]

 

Early 82 Camaro Crossfire engines were known to freeze up. But, it was not a temperature related issue. The poorly designed hood scoop and air intake allowed water to enter the throttle bodies and move into the engine. The water would tend to accumulate in cylinder #8. Later on, the scoops and air cleaner were redesigned and a service bulletin was issued. I guess if it were cold enough, the water in the cylinders could freeze.

 

Originally posted by ws6formula89:
Nonsense huh? Well I know mechanics that owned cease-fires when they first came out, and thats what they told me their problem was, along with the other stuff. I don't remember exactly what they said, but basically theirs froze up at the throttle bodies MAYBE IF THEY HAD WATER IN THEIR TANK IT WOULD FREEZE UP OR YOUR COLD START MODULE OR ANOTHER CENSOR IS NOT WORKING WOULD CAUSE IT NOT TO START WHEN IT IS COLD. LAST I KNEW THE THROTTLE BODIES WERE ALUMINIUM AND HAD GAS RUNNING THROUGH THEM JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CAR. FOR YOUR CEASE-FIRE WHAT STATE DO YOU LIVE AT BECAUSE I AM PRETTY SURE THAT WE HAVE SOMEBODY WITH A CROSSFIRE THAT WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU HOW A CROSSFIRE RUNS. FOR ME I AM RUNNING A MID 13 AND POSSIBLY WITH MY NEXT OUTING A LOW 13. HOPE YOU LIVE IN OHIO BECAUSE WE HAVE 2 HERE THAT WILL LOVE TO BURN YOU FOR SURE AND ANY OTHER CROSSFIRE DOUBTER.
JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE SECRETARIES IN A CAR REPAIR SHOP DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE MECHANICS.

 

Thanks Indy. That was the firts post about freezing that makes any sense, and it was Camaro specific.

You obviously have never lived in New England. Hummidity it generally OVER 85%. -Even in January.
What Venturi's? This is fuel injection, Partner.
My manifold base and lid run within 5*F of the cylinder head temp.

How does Two TB's, 1 bbl each have more flow than ONE 2bbl Throttle body (as in TBI, TPI, LT1, LT4)??? Either way, the total amount of air required to idle a given engine is the same, regardless of how many throttle plates are used. In this case it is two, just like every other GM FI V-8 (except LS1)

A single TB that has TWO barrels and TWO throttle plates. Since it is a TWO bbl TBI, wouldn't you "have to close the each one more" to get it to idle right?

I think Indy82TX has revealed where the Icing rummors origionate from. HIS info makes sense, and is believeable. It also BTW, has nothing to do with carb icing, venturis, manifold temps, etc. It has to do, simply with a WATER LEAK through the CAMARO's cowl induction hood. Which would explain why I, with a T/A, and FAQman ('82 Vette), and 84Xfire('84 Vette), and Hyprspd,('84 Vette), have never experienced any water/ice related problems.


[This message has been edited by Tom 400 CFI (edited July 05, 2001).]

 

Whoops. Double post. Sorry

[This message has been edited by Tom 400 CFI (edited July 05, 2001).]

 

Hmmm... let me think back to when I was buying cars back in 85, and bought the HO car I ended up with instead of the far more plentiful CFI (or the even more mediocre LG4) cars...

LU5: 160 HP

L69: 190 HP using the same block, same pistons, same cam, same heads, only difference is induction.

Did I miss something?

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

 

Other cam!

 

The Freezing issue does not surprise me even though I have never experienced it here in Minnesota in my crossfire. I have had "carb ice" on my IROC with the TPI when I had disconnected the heater hoses from the throttle plate warmer in the summer and forgot to hook it back up. Carb ice is a very common condition in aircraft due to the temperature changes when changing altitude. It normally occurs around 34 to 38 degrees Fahrenheit. Between the fuel evaporating out of the nozzle and the pressure drop in the throttle body causing the air temp to drop below the dew point there by the humidity in air the condenses on the coolest object (the throttle plates). It was probably the only reason they put that coolant loop through the throttle plate on TPI motors.

 

How does the Cross-fire compare to a 4 barrel car as far as performance in stock form? I think it is a bitchin looking setup, and you dont see too many anymore. The one I drove felt pretty good into the 15's

 

Great if your not looking for anything more? You obvious didnt look at domincs post that 325hp 425ft-lbs will make your t/a pee its pants

------------------
Nick Simmons
Light Bronze 1984 Vette Auto, Ported and polished Intake,no swirls, K&N, MSD, no smog pump, Ram air/Cold air intake, no cat

 

I wish I knew more when I first got my car. Don't listen to that Cross-fire is bad ****. Make your own assumptions not what somneone else thinkas about a set-up

------------------
I WOULD RATHER PUSH A CAMARO THAN DRIVE AN IMPORT

1983Z28 350w/ edelbrock performer RPM power package , dynomax shorty headers, 700R-4 with shift kit, 750cfm carb, edelbrock 3" exhaust system, ASCD SS hood, 16" IROC rims.

future mods:
completely done over suspension, black paint with flames, Hurst shifter, dakota digital gauge package, procharger supercharger.

 

Well, as RB accuratly pointed out 4 posts back, the '84 305 HO and the '82-'84 CFI did share the same long block, including cam. The CFI was rated at 175 HP, however, not the 160 mentioned above. It IS still 15 HP shy of the 4 bbl HO motor which was rated at 190 hp. The CFI motor does have much greater low end torque but hp wins races.

I do think my particular car responded extremely well to the headers and "free" mods I did back when I first got it. my 14.5 @ 95 @ 3300 lbs w/driver puts that at about 235 hp. Hard to know if the 4bbl engine would have responded so well to those simple mods. The only variable I'm not sure about, and RB might remember a detail here that could answere a question; did the '84-'85 305 HO have a 2.5" cat, and the single cross-flow muffler, or did it still have the retarded 2" cat and little twin mufflers "T"ed into the intermediate pipe? If it had the single muffler exhuast, (later style) that IMO would account for the 15 hp difference.

 

The L69 had the oval exit Y-pipe with the cat that had 4-bolt flanges at both ends, single I-pipe, and the single cross-flow muffler. At least, that's what mine has. I don't recall what the CFI had. Someone who has one could fill in that detail better than I can.

The HP #s I quoted were for 83; they may not be accurate for all years. They come from the GM service manual for 83 Camaro.

I don't mean to imply that CFI is "bad", only that as the first attempt out of GM at a "performance" fuel injection, it didn't measure up to the existing technology of carbs, even though the carb in question is severely hobbled by its (equally crude) computer control. CFI's problems as far as I was concerned were primarily the totally restricted intake system, and at the time, the complete lack of any ability to tune it. There were no custom chips back then. You got what you got, and that was the end of that. Obviously that has changed to some extent in the years since.

Given the state of technology at the time, it's easy to understand why CFI is now little more than a museum curiosity. For its day it was OK: it did beat one of the carbureted motor options, so at least it was in the ballpark even if it wasn't in the same league with the winners. TPI even with all its familiar limitations was a massive improvement over CFI; you may remember how everybody gushed over how much better the L98 ran than the CFI 350 they had for a couple of years. My 83 305 in stock trim easily dusted the CFI Vettes, but wouldn't keep up with L98 Vettes past about 65 or 70 MPH. I know, I have a close friend who had one (got it in 85 the minute they dropped CFI and gave it a better motor), and we lined 'em up and checked frequnently enough.

So again I'm not saying that CFI is "bad", just that almost anything else is better.

And I've never heard of the "icing" complaint, which is of course a familiar phenomenon to anyone who has experience with airplanes. I had no idea that was even an issue.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited July 05, 2001).]

 

I knew it... the word CFI comes up, and a bunch of CFI owners get their panties in a bunch...

I guess you dont know what a venturi is.

 

Whatta flame war

You CFI guys are hilarious. Always on the defense cause you're the under-dogs

Well, hope the guy who needed answers got 'em.

Anyhow, get a TPI car. Theres readily available parts, they go faster with less effort, and make more power when modded.

Oh, and you could get a 5.7 in TPI. More cubes = more power.

Just my .02



------------------
Mike L.
It ain't pretty.......

1987 IROC Z TPI 350 A4 3.27 Borg-Warner.

Mods: 2300-2500 Stall Converter, Shift Kit(GM parts), TPI Specialties Stage 3 PROM, Modified Airbox w/ K&N's, homemade cold air, Relocated MAT sensor, Gutted MAF, 160* thermostat, Accel 8mm Wires, bypassed TB coolant, Flowmaster 3 chamber single 3" in/out muffler, 3" MAC mandrel intermediate, custom dual !cat Y-pipe. airfoil, ported plenum. !smog

http://www.MichaelLasiuta.home.att.net

**BOYCOTT LAPEER DRAGWAY**

 

RB, The CFI came with a tiny 2" cat, 2" intermediat pipe that Y'ed into two ~1-3/4" pipes going over the axle. Those two pipes butted into a transverse 1-3/4" pipe. On either end of this transverse pipe is a muffler, and a tail pipe comes out the other side of that muffler, makes a 90* bend and goes out the back. As you can imagine, not a good flowing exhaust. There is your 15 hp. I bet if you installed your HO's exhaust on the CFI, the power would be pretty much dead-nuts even. I DON'T THINK THE CFI RULES, but in stockish form, I think it is a pretty well balanced system.

As for being restricted in mods by the computer, look at what I've done w/the stock ECM and origional PROM. Almost 100 more cubes, a biggish cam(way bigger than stock), ported manifold, and bored TB's, and with all that, no check engine light and I'm still getting 22+ mpg. Again, there isn't a plethora of parts for this induction, but there are plenty of things one can do. and most of those things are pretty close to if not totally free.

In the end though, if you are looking to flow over 300"ish" hp, the runners are then too small, and there isn't much that you can practically do to change that. I'm about to buy a Performer RPM intake and I'm going to go to Test N Tune, make a few passes with my current setup, and then slap on the Performer carb and intake and see how much faster I run. It'll be interesting and entertaining. I'll post the results, probably in about three weeks.

And as for you Madmax, I most definitely know what a venturi is. But my point was the relevance to the beat "icing" topic. It isn't relevant. In a carbed engine, as I'm sure you know, the air passing past the venturi cools as mentioned above, and can cause ice formation on the discharge nozzles, inhibiting fuel flow, or narrowing the carb throat, and richening the fuel mixture. None of these parts exist on a TBI engine! There is a throttle bore, which has a consistent diameter throughout most of its is length. But the air isn't going to drop in temperature until it squeeks past the throttle plate, and expands as it enters a low presure area. Then it cools. Alot. But WAAAYYYY back to one of my old questions to WS6, then what? Is the whole bore going to ICE CLOSED?? I don't thinks so. Is the throttle going to get iced at what ever throttle setting you've been at for the last half hour? No. So do you see why the term Venturi is not really relevent to the discussion at hand? Again I think the leaking cowl induction explanation shed the truth to the situation.

In conclusion, what REALLY gets my goat is when a guy comes on here and asks the simple question "whats wrong W/CFI", and abunch of people start a tyraid of UNFOUNDED doom. I hate it. You shouldn't sent the guy running in fear. You should only divulge the FACT YOU KNOW. Not "I heard from a mechnic....but I can't really remember what he said" or "I read in a book somewhere but I can't find it now...." Do you see what I'm saying? If people came out and made true factual statements about CFI, like "from 300 hp up, the CFI manifold is going to be a major limiting factor in power production", my "panties" would not be all bunched up, because that is true. Or "the CFI is known to develope vacuum leaks at the plenum lid gasket." That is also true, although my Plenum lid gasket has not failed in ten years.

Folks, the original poster found a clean '83 -not too common these days. Tell him the facts about the engine like the 2nd poster did, and avoid the horror and doom rumors. Then he can get the darn car and enjoy it. Worst case, he wants to mod it beyond the PRACTICAL limits of the stock manifold, so he goes and spends $250 measily bucks on Ebay for an intake, carb and presure regulator, and ends up ahead of a 305 HO anyway. If the origional poster buys the car knowing that factual idiosyncrasies of the induction, he will end up with a solid running, reliable car, and the knowledge of some of its few potential problems.

To the origional poster; if it is mechanically sound, and you like the car and it's condition, get the car, and enjoy it.

 

Jeez. I'm not an expert on CFI, I was just giving my 2 cents and you CFI guys DEFINITELY got your panties in a bunch. At least I didn't say it was absolutely true, I just know guys with CAMAROS with X-fire injection. They had the same problem, I just didn't know any specifics.

What kind of car do you think this forum is for? THE F-CAR! I don't know jack about 1982 Corvettes nor do I want to. Notice I said the info I got was from a CAMARO BOOK. Not CORVETTE BOOK, you just assumed I was talking about all CFI motors.

As for the flaming on this post, it's really what brings tech forums down...I've pissed and moaned more than once here, and I felt bad about it. No need to argue or complain, just point out the facts, and correct each other. We all learn more in the long run.

Notice I said I like Crossfire Injection? I just use "Cease-fire" because it's commonly known as that around where I live.

Nah, I won't race, I could care less if my 305 beat other cars. 14.1 is plenty fast for me. I have fun with my gears/cam/converter. I'm not all gung-ho about racing, I just like driving these cars because they are fun. If I wanted to race, I'll pull my 95 GT out of storage and make it into a drag car.

Just leave me out of it...you can believe I made a fool out of myself. You were just so apalled that someone made a slight mistake about something.

How am I supposed to know you have a Corvette? I thought Corvettes would have tons of great forums like these.

-ws6formula-

P.S. Leave my car out of it. She's a good gal, but she doesn't need to stomp on LT1s regularly.

 

Well, any way you slice it, its a venturi.

I could care less about icing issues related to carbs or TBI or venturis, all I said was you must not know what a venturi is. If the diameter changes, its a venturi. Period.

 

If it is "YOUR" car and it runs good and "YOU" like it, that is all that counts. People have opinions, and always will. And sometimes you may not like someones opinion, but hell, thats life, you just take it with a grain of salt, and go on.
Later
Mike

------------------
(Gran Turismo Americano) "The Ultimate Firebird"
Smokin 1989 GTA- Bone stock except for exhaust. (no catalytic-stainless pipe into Flowmaster 2 chamber).

 

Back to reality guys. CFI can be made to run good, anything can. Does anyone remember Cross-Ram Hemi's or Max Wedges. Those don't run so bad as I remember. CFI's just don't have the best reputation because GM ditched it early.

------------------
'87 Bird 350 .060 over 700R4 + Lots more

 

The bottom line is, you are the only one who can decide if that car suits you. If it's in good shape, runs good, and you like it, and it's at a price you're willing to pay, then buy it. Personally, if I saw even a CFI car with that few miles in really good shape, today, I might pay that much for it in spite of it all. The price you quoted seems reasonable for a really cherry car. However when I was paying basically new car prices, and they were all in good shape with low mileage because they were brand-new or close to it, and I could have any of the 3 induction systems for essentially the same price, .... well, it didn't take me very long to figure out which one I was going to spend my cash on.

There's nothing "wrong" with CFI that should scare you off. Just be aware that it's a very limited system, difficult to get very much more out of than what's already there. If you're satisfied with its performance as it is, and don't think you'll ever want it to do any better, then it's fine. If you think you're going to leave it on there and spank 350s, then you're kidding yourself. Not even a 350 with CFI can spank other 350s in a similar chassis. Think of it as being exactly the same thing as a Cavalier, just twice as much of it: 8 cylinders instead of 4, 2 TBIs instead of 1, 5.0 liters instead of 2.2 or whatever the Cavalier had, etc.; that puts it into perspective. A decent, reliable system as far as it goes, but not "performance" by any means.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited July 06, 2001).]

 

I like the CFI system, it's very reliable. But all the time, I was talking about the hoods on the Camaro allowing water to drip down into the TBI and making them freeze up. I have no problems with any CFI 'Vettes, or others. I just meant there were problems with the Camaro freezing up. I didn't say all of them freeze up. And it depends where you live too. Buy the car, see if anyone else had the problem with them, and see if there are any solutions.

-ws6formula-

------------------
1989 Pontiac Formula WS6
69,000 miles.
------------------------
305 TBI, 4.10 gears, SLP Zexel/Torsen Limited Slip Differential, 700r4 Corvette Servo, LT4 Hot Cam/Valvesprings, GM Aluminum Driveshaft, 2700 RPM Stall, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold, Turbocity TB. Ran on 6-19-2001 again: UPDATED: 14.1 @ 97.68 mph. Dyno'd Bone Stock @ 172.6 rwhp, 266 ft-lbs. of rw-torque.

 

The old cross ram hemis, 302's, and so on ran good because they were good engines to begin with. The cross ram has its good points and its bad points. When the cross ram works right it can build alot of power without the height of a tunnel ram. Unfortunatey it is almost impossible to tune right. But to say that cross fire must be great because it came on great engines is not fair. It was an interesting idea to try again since fuel injection will have an easier time compensating for the quirky manifold. Maybe it should not have been dropped from production. Honestly I think it was an attempt to catch a crowd with a new line of performance cars peaking below 200HP. Old school buyers would feel the cross fire as a real performance item that was missing from the market for over a decade. Once the new body style had a little momentum they probably determined it was more expense and trouble than it was worth (from GM's standpoint). Not to mention somewhere in a room at GM the TPI system had to be undergoing development at that time.

[This message has been edited by Grand Prix (edited July 06, 2001).]

 

RB makes some powerful statements about the CFI system that I (also being an old fart) recall from the time.

First, CFI was one of the "grand daddies" of EFI and one of GM's first attempts at a "performance" induction system. Unfortunately as RB said, there was limited info on it. A lot because we just didn't know then what we do know now. In fact, off ALL the EFI systems GM produced, the CFI is STILL the least known. I am not even aware of a BIN Editor to adjust the programming, though I may find a limited one if I truly searched...I would have to ask TunerCat what they have, but I think I already know the answer.

Second, even when TPI came out, guys found that they could STILL develop more HP from an L98 with a carb than the TPI system. I recall TPIS saying they developed 285 HP from an L98 using a carb.

Though I love EFI and find a lot of advantages with it, fact be known, until recently carbs were still outproducing EFI in the HP department. In fact, until recently, I felt EFI had a HP penalty when compared to carbs.

"Museum Piece", RB, you crack me up sometimes.

 

WWWOOOOOOOO Heheheheheheheh OOOhhhh hahahahah


Wow........


PS: I live in the south where the humidity DOES exist...... No freezing problems here..

------------------
See my car at
http://angelfire.com/bc/xfire83 Where Cross-Fire Injection lives...And breathes!!

 

Check out a POST on the DIY PROM Board regarding converting the ECM for Cross Fire to the 747 Truck TBI ecm. This solves a MAJOR hurdle in modifying the Cross Fire Injection system. There is even a picture.

This should allow you Cross Fire guys to tune your engines now and modify them.