Will they work together? I would prefer to have nonself-aligning rockers, but that's not what I happen to have and if the self aligning ones will work I'd rather use them than have to buy a new set.

why not just remove the guide paltes and use the SA rockers. comp makes a good set of SA rockers pn 1318. i wouldn't be mixing valve train parts.

[This message has been edited by ede (edited October 18, 2001).]

 

<font size = +20>
NO
<font size = 0>

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 17, 2001).]

 

Ok, then who makes a 1.6 rocker for centerbolt valvecovers, either full roller or roller tip, I don't care as long as it clears the stock valve covers. And I don't want aluminum.

 

<font size = +20> Oh yes they will (in some cases)...... and do........ <font size = 0>

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

Pretty much every cam manufacturer makes a roller tipped, non-roller fulcrum, 1.6 rocker arm that is no larger than the 1.5 standard stamped steel ones that come from the factory...... which means they will fit under the stock rocker covers, no problem. The better solution would be, if you now have a full set of self-aligning rocker arms, to remove the guide plates and just go with the self-aligning rocker arms and call it good. That way you would not be wasting money............

EDIT: BTW, I have the narrow-body, aluminum, 3/8" stud, self-aligning, 1.6:1 Crane Gold Series Race Rockers on mine <font size +10> WITH GUIDE PLATES, <font size +0> and they fit under the stock rocker covers....... and work fine - no binding...........

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club


[This message has been edited by Matt87GTA (edited October 17, 2001).]

 

You can use self aligning rockers with guideplates. GM discontinued regular rockers and many people I know use the two together w/o any problems although it's redundant.

Guideplates are better than self-aligning rocker arms. If you get any slack in the valvetrain, there's a possibility of it coming off the guide rail and all hell breaks loose.

 

you ARE NOT suppose to use guideplates and self aligning rockers together

PERIOD

if you want to have an unstable valvetrain and start bending pushrods, then go ahead

 

Use self-aligning rockers.....or....guideplates,but never both!
You may or may not have troubles with both, but everyone I've spoken to says that when used together they will often align to slightly different locations,and you're just begging for valvetrain problems.Correct rocker geometry is important if you want the motor to hold up to any abuse.
-Rich-

 

If you don't know what you are talking about, please refrain from responding.

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

Have you ran an engine with SA rockers and guideplates?????? Do you know anyone that has bent all their pushrods because they used SA rockers with guideplates??????

The answer to both of those questions is most assuredly NO.

If you don't have any real evidence or first hand accounts on something, then don't comment on it because all you are doing is spreading rumors and wasting peoples' time and money...... jeez people.............

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

<font size +10> EXACTLY <font size +0>

I am not recommending running SA rockers with guideplates, and it is not the ideal situation, but the idea that they will bind and blow up the engine or bend pushrods (if they are decent quality rods) is ludicrous........ How tight do you people think guide plates fit on the pushrod ????????????????????

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

The deal is, you can't have 2 different systems attempting to locate the rocker arm on the valve tip. You might get lucky, and one system will fall within the tolerance of the other; but that would be purely a matter of luck, totally outside of the engine builder's control. In this particular case, the SA rocker has a wide enough tolerance that wherever the guide plate happens to locate everything, there's a chance that it will be within the range that the SA rocker wants to hold it in. But if it isn't in that range, then you absolutely will have parts that bind; and if the problem is severe enough, you can bend push rods, destroy the end of them where they go into the rocker, destroy the tip of the valve where the SA rocker is busy trying to move over to one side, or something. It's going to cause some kind of trouble.

Bottom line: when you are building a motor, pick one alignment system, and use that one only. Any of them works fine for anything that anybody here is going to be doing; some cost less than others; some aren't available with all parts combos (real racing rockers aren't available in SA for example). The most universal and foolproof system is guide plates.

And BTW, the push rods fit to about .015" or so in the guide plates. The SA rockers have about 1/16" (.060") or so of slop more or less, depending on the mfr. So generally the guide plate will do the work, and the SA rocker will just go along fo the ride.

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 18, 2001).]

 

When I built my engine I was planning on buying a set of non-SA rockers and use them with the guideplates but I ran out of money at that time so the Crane Gold SA ones had to work and I was a little bit worried about it because of what everyone was telling me, but I checked the clearances and they were not even close to binding. Obviously in an ideal situation I, nor anybody building an engine, would not make a decision to use two forms of rocker alignment as it is at the very least a waste of money and at the very worst, a possible area for engine failure.

But it is mu understanding that the person that asked the question already has the same situation that I had where they have the rockers already and the guidplates on the heads and want to know if it is possible to use them together to which the answer is most likely yes.

ViciousZ, you are just going to have to double check the clearance issue by test fitting the rockers on the engine and using a dial indicator to verify some clearance is present so the pushrod will not binding.

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

Comp Pro Magnums for a basic SBC will fit under centerbolt covers. I called and asked.

 

Using both is just rolling the dice. It *may* work, but then again, it may not. Without checking the alignment first (who has access to self-aligning rockers, and has the ability to machine heads for guideplates so they can be installed without modifying the existing condition of the head... Um, nobody) then you are purchasing at least one part that may not be compatible with another. Its a crap shoot.

I used to work in a machine shop so...

I have had people request to install guide plates and wanted to run self aligning rockers, and I told them its not a good idea. When I called one of them back to inform them that the self aligning rockers were not going to work properly with their new guide plates, the person argued with me (again) and ran the heads anyway. He purchased some new pushrods about a week later and was looking for a rocker arm. Take that as you wish. I personally would not spend money on the valvetrain at all until I had decided what I was going to use, and for sure I would pick one or the other so when I got the parts I would not have to worry about any misalignment of parts that may occur from one head to the next.

Vicious, out of curiousity, you say you have self aligning rockers already? So whats the deal with the guideplates then, why do you want those?

 

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

If your dead set on running guidplates, I have a set of non SA 1.6 roller rockers that I will trade you for your SA ones. I don't have guideplates on my new heads so i can't use em. They have been sitting in my shed for the past year, good as new, they have less than 1000 miles on them.

email me.

 

<font size = +8>
Ok boys, the verdict is in:
<font size = +.3>
I called Comp Cams and asked them how their 1418 1.6 roller tipped self-aligning rocker arms would work with guideplates, and they said "NO!" that they were NOT supposed to be used with the guideplates. Then I called my machinist who had sold me the wrong rockers when I specifically asked for nsa. Oops, no, that won't work, he told me. Said he's go ahead and exchange them for me, no cost. And as for ditching the guideplates, well, I bought the heads used and they came with the guideplates. It looks like there's some metal in the heads that is missing or has been removed because it just don't look quite right. I think they have to stay. Anyway, thanks for the input, but I'm gonna go with the nsa's, I just don't want to take any chances.


[This message has been edited by ViciousZ (edited October 18, 2001).]

 

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

They will work together but they will work against eachother each tryting to do the job of keeping the rocker alighned. That is a self defeating setup. Also if you use stock pushrods that came of a engine that used self guided rockers, they are not hard enough. They will grind on the guideplates and get metal all over. You need apropriate pushrods to go with guideplates.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS.6

Got Beach?

 

Since you appear to be reposting quotes of yourself to demonstrate that you made all the points that were made (that SA+GP = potential problems), i just thought i'd highlight that you also said it has never caused a problem in practice, which madmax alone has confirmed is wrong. I don't have firsthand experience with these problems, but over the years i have read similar expereinces that max posted more than a few times.

Don't try to act cool, smart and witty when you're fly is open.

 

I was quoting myself because the things I quoted answered or responded to other peoples replys. I didn't feel like retyping the same things I already had typed.


That is not at all what the point of that reply is. Keep the context together and you'll see what my point was....

I have said over and over that I am not recommending running SA rockers with guide plates or that it is the ideal setup. All I am saying is that it is completely possible, and does in fact work, in many situations. Keep in mind, the person asking about this was not asking what should and shouldn't be the ideal setup on an engine build up, she was asking if it was POSSIBLE to run the SA rockers with guide plates - to which the answer is YES, IT MIGHT WORK, which is what my point and my answer was.

I don't have to act cool, smart, and witty - I am. I have a lot of respect for you Ed, so I am going to pretend you didn't stoop to the level of personal insults.

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

It wasn't meant as a personal attack, just a little poke . Like i said, you jumped all over that guy so i thought i'd throw that back too. I mean, the guy wasn't spreading rumors or wasting a dudes money, he was alerting to a real possible risk. Gotta keep an eye out for the little guy, you know ...

 

Umm... yes, and the first time I spun it over 6k I bent three pushrods and popped open two of their lifters. That was a bitch.



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"Question with boldness even the existence of a *** ; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but if you only had parts failures on some of the valvetrain, the problem may or may not have been with the use of the SA rockers in unison with the guide plates. One could tend to reason that if the running of SA rockers and guide plates together was the sole factor responsible for the engine failure, all of the pushrods and/or lifters would be ruined...... Of course there are quite a few variables in that type of engine failure, but............ it's just something to think about.......


Ed - Yeah, I guess looking back at my reply I did kinda jump on that guy. Sorry 'bout that.. ..... I guess I just got a little carried away with this discussion. Needless to say, I have hashed over this issue with more than a few expert engine builders and most of them still refuse to believe me that it is even possible......... until I pull a rocker cover off my engine

Laterzzzzzzz
Matt

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

 

Summit sells Summit brand roller tip rockers ($100) 1.5 or 1.6 ratio. They are not self aligning and need hardened pushrods ($29) and guideplates ($16). They will work with CB valve covers. The cheapest full roller rockers I've found were Crane's and started over $300 that would work with the CB valve covers. As for the use of self aligning rockers AND guideplates, whether you can or not why would you want to? One or the other will work just fine. Everything I've ever read says to use one or the other but not both, but to each his own I guess. My Dad owns a machine shop and has been building motors since 1968, he said he has seen cases of bent pushrods from where people had used both, and where people hadn't checked pushrod clearance from the guideplates and had binding even without self aligners. If you're using self aligning rockers and have the guideplates spread wide, you wouldn't have any problems. Anyway, go with the roller tips and order hardened pushrods and guideplates, you won't be disappointed and will have money left in your pocket.

[This message has been edited by jag (edited October 22, 2001).]

 

She already had the SA rockers and the guide plates were already installed on the heads and she wanted to know if it was possible to run them together....... I suggested removing the guide plates and running the SA rockers by themselves but she said that there was another problem with the heads if it was done this way - I dunno what that problem could have been.........

You just read my replies didn't you? Then not everything you have ever read says not to use both........

Anywho, she is getting the SA rockers exchanged for non-SA rockers now and running them with the guide plates......... all in all, I agree that she should be happier with the setup this way...........


BTW, VisciousZ, you do have one-piece hardened pushrods to use with those guide plates don't you??????

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club