Engine is a bit tricky to start. But once it starts it almost acts as if its missing but not at the same time. I drove it once, and it didn't have the power i expected it to have.

Once finished the passenger side header was glowing red. Not like a dark red, this was a bright red, almost like an amber color. and the engine had only been running for 3 minutes max. Plus the engine coolant temperature seemed to be unusually high for such a short run.

What could be happeneing...

I'm almost to the point of wanting to conver carb, even tho upgrading my TPI for the 350 was so much more expensive then converting. And i still need Prom tuning.


Anyone have any idea's?

 

What work has been done to the car? Have you changed teh timing recently? Any codes set, like a 42 or 43 for instance?

 

From the post I take it the 350 was just swapped in? If so you need to set your timing correctly, with the EST disconnected. Id shoot for 6 deg BTDC.

 

HE'S WAY FRICKIN' LEAN!

 

One of two things...

Way way lean like stated above (most likely)

or you have a blockage in the exhaust system.

 

From the other thread it would help if you reconnected your MAF. Theres really no reason to disconnect it.

As far as being lean, Ive never experienced glowing red amber headers at idle. When I first started out with MAF the engine was runnign so lean at idle that it was jumping around on the motor mounts and rattling the distrubuter real hard, causing the timing to scatter. When it warmed up it would just shut down if it stayed in open loop, but I never experienced red headers.

Now, when I first put the engine in way back when and didnt know how to set the timing properly, thats when I had the hot red-orange headers. Theres probably lots of combustion still taking place when the exhaust valve opens. Id imagine that inside his headers it looks like 8 great big blow torches coming from the exhaust ports. It may be lean, and that may eb the cause, but hooking up the MAF and setting the timing correctly with the EST disconnected so the engine has the correct ammoutn of timing probably will solve the problem. This is also teh easiest thing to check and verify

 

Oh, BTW, what timing chain cover and balancer are you using? I purchased what should have been a balancer for the type of timing pointer thats off to the side and instead got one that has the pointer straight up, like the stock thirdgen ones do. You never know...

Also, stupid question, but how where the valves adjusted? I doubt it would even run if they where set way past zero lash but its still worth checking. With my crate, one was set so far that it never closed, causing a 'whoosh' type of sound along with a glowing primary. A weak or faulty ignition can also cause the primaries to glow.

 

MY timing is set to 6* BTDC, i set that with the EST connector disconnected.

I have a balacer and a timing pointer. when i assembled the engine i notched the balancer to align with my stock pointer. So that part is A ok.


I dont see how i could possibly be running lean however, i have 24# injectors with a 305(19#) computer tune. And with my sensors disconnecte, i would be running in limp home mode making my car run a standard table. which would mean there is no way it would know it needs to use less or more fuel.


IIRC i think only the passenger side was glowing red. But if thats the case then why would it have ran at all. running on 4 cylenders is beyond me, yet it does act as if it missed constantly, and other things as well.

Timing is dead on, i know this for sure.

How can i check for vacuum leaks? Will a vacuum gauge do that trick? If so, what rpm must the engine stay at for a proper reading. My car idles at 1250-1500rpm. A higher then normal idle. But it works for it and me.

 

I'd typically tend to say timing or a/f ratio. One side, I'd look to maybe the valvetrain on that side, maybe the fuel rail, harness, etc. Only one side is a tad odd, unless you have duals, or cutouts, etc.

 

well, as is the car is hard to starts. Normally takes a good 30 seconds to get her started. I dont knwo why but it does. Fuel pump doesn't prime, so i must work up oil pressure for fuel pump to kick in.


When she starts she doesn't like to stay started.

Timing is good, i checked it a whole bunch of times.

Valvetrain, i hope not, i've been breaking in the cam. I doubt i have all passneger side exhaust valves down too tight. If i did that badly i'd be bound to get an intake valve as well, and i dont hear any backfire at all. But i will recheck all of that tomorow.

I just hope to *** its an easy fix. The car ran great before the swap, the old 305 just spun a rod and main bearing.

I've been reading as well about fuses that each bank is fused separately. so i'll be checking that as well. I also need to check that each fuel injector is actually firing. But IMO if there was no fuel to ignite it wouldn't be running lean, it wouldn't be firing at all right?

 

Didnt see the one header bit. How many primaries are glowing? All of them? A couple?

 

Also, hook the MAF up. The MAF will usually give reasonably correct fueling regardless of whats behind it.

Edit: The miss could be the problem as well. Ive had a faulty plug wire cause a primary to start glowing.

 

What you describe is either or both Rich fuel mixture or retarded timing. Thats about it.

 

Reaching a bit here, but is it possible that you reveresed some plug wires by mistake? Ive done it every so often...

As for the starting problem, do you have the CS injector hooked up? I think your car came with that.

 

i will double check timing but it should still be at 6* BTDC.

The CS injector is hooked up, but the cold start switch is disconnected/broken.

Could i bypass the switch by jumping the connector, making the ecm think the switch is flung for the cold start injector?

But if timing is still at 6* BTDC, what is the next call here?

 

when you reconnect the est wire does the timing advance? it should.

 

Where all the primaries glowing on that header? Or just a couple/one?

 

it seems as if all the primaries are glowing, and i dont get it.

timing is good, and timing does advance.

 

does the fact that its a new cam make a difference?

 

It certainly could be related to swapping in the cam. Maybe somethings misadjusted, who knows. Is it possible to start the car and check to see which primaries or if one or both headers are glowing? Only one entire header is a bit unusual.

 

well, i will need to wait for dark, becuase the car is outside and tonight i will take photos for all to see them glow.

But i think i can narrow the problem down.

Base timing is dead on at 6*BTDC. My problem might be that advance is not working anymore. I will need to check that.

I am running the stock fuel pressure regulator. I have an AFPR, but no Fuel pressure guage. I need to buy one.

Wrong octane of fuel might also be contributing. Thbe 305 ran greta on 87. and when i pulled it almost 6 months ago i still had half a tank of 87. The new engine has a higher compression ratio. The 305 had 9.4, the 350 has ~9.8 with my gasket thickness's. Although it may not seem like much of a differece i'll leave that problem on the back burner.

Vacuum leaks. However much i disagree that in my situation a vacuum leak could/is causing the problem it still may be. MY engine has no way of knowing how much air is flwoing through so a vacuum leak would not lean the engine out. But since i did create my own TPI gaskets, i think they may be possibly leaking.

Valve timing was set the standard way. I just perfectly aligned the two dots and set her up. How i've always been doing it.

Valve lash is setup ok, if anything it could use tightening. But i will be sure todo a compression check on all 8 tonight after wor and make sure there is no combustion in the exhaust.

Those are all my idea's. Anyone care to contribute?

 

Seeing which headers or primaries are glowing will help alot in diagnosing the problem, or at least narrowing it down. dont wait too long for this, though, its not good at all for the engine or everything else around it. Id start it, note the problem areas, and shut down immediatly. Also, like you stated, a compression test with the engine cranking would help eliminate the valves or valve lash as a possible cause.

 

The only systems that can see a vacuum leak and compensate completely for it is speed density TBI and TPI. But even those cant help with a leak at the base of the intake. Either with MAF or TPS, your computer wont compensate for a vac leak. Ive had vac leaks in MAF cars, some of them really bad, but ive never experienced anything as dramatic as you. With a vac leak, the engine only really runs poorly when it builds vacuum. Under load it runs fine as theres little or no vacuum to pull air through the leak.

 

sorry guys, never got to starting it up for a photo. It started to rain.

But i can fdor sure say that the entire passenger side header was glowing amber last time, i just dont remember if the driver's side did.

 

i have done a compression test on my engien in one of the cylenders. It was #1 however.

It was up really high, IIRC.

But today i was told edelbrock timing sets are different from other timing sets. Is this true? It seemed to me to be a regular double roller timing chain. I aligned the dots, what could possibly be the difference?

 

I had same problem after my cam swap. I had my valves too tight causing raw fuel to enter the headers and reignite inside. Try readjusting the rockers with the motor running. When i did, each primary turned back to silver once I adjusted both intake and exhaust for that cylinder

 

i will readjust the valve's tomorow hopefully.

today i work all day.

tomorow i will try to make sure timing advance's, and that the valve's arn't too tight.

I"m prety sure that my cam is installed correctly. But i cant be 100% sure. When #1 was at TDC on the right stroke both valve's were closed. And compression on that cylender seems to me that 160PSI sounds familiar. But at the same tiome that also sounds high.

Other then that, i should have the supplies now to make sure that i can make all the sensors work and everything in between.

I am just hoping the maf sensor is ok, i remember last time i had it connected it wouldn't run correctly. So for 3 month i was running the engine without a maf sensor. It was inline, just the connector wasn't connected.

I have a larger then stock cam, is there an increase in base timing that should be made? 6* was stock, but my cam is much larger then the 86 pea cam.

 

and here's another aspect i forgot to add way back at the beginning.

In order to start my car i have to tap the pedal constantly while cranking. Does that mean there isn't enough fuel getting in? or does that mean there isn't enough initial spark to get her started?

She will always eventually start. Always. She just is more complicated then it should be as it is fuel injected.

 

thats the lack of a cold start injector. My friends car did that as well. The engine would crank and crank and gradually come to life once it caught.

 

ok ok thats cool. I have been wondering however, can i just the cold start switch with a paperclip? The connector still exists for the switch just i ruined the switch on accident, I removed it with an inpact gun and the ceramic broke ...

 

 

I pulled one from my bird a few days ago if you need one for cheap.

 

I had the same problem a long long time ago. After 1 year of I gave up and the car got sold. Then I was informed by the buyer that the valves were bent. When we were building the engine the wrong push rod got sent and put in ( they were to long) and ended up bending many of the valves but didn't know this at the time. I set the lash many many times but had no idea it bent the valves, the company I got them from said there was no way the longer push rod would do that so I dismissed that problem. The headers on both sides look like molting metel. You really need to check your compression!

 

well i used all stock parts from thirdgen's, and stock sized pushrods. brand new heads, i mean brand spankinh new 083 casting heads. Never used, never even turned over before i first did. Both valves(intake and exhaust) were still shiney.

I'll check the stuff tomorow.

 

Well heres a continuance.

I went outside today to start diagnosing the problem. And the engine seemingly refused to start. And there was a loud clanking noise.

IT sounds as if it misses constantly. When i rigged up a cold start system it seemed to start easier.

The clanking noise ended up being all my flexplate bolts were loose and were making the worst sound ever. IT did scare me tho, so i disconnected the torque converter.

So i then was able to start the car unafriad of the noise. And it idled really weird, and idled high, at 2k RPM and i couldn't figure out how to make it idle lower. IT was definately missing however.

SO i continue to do my first diagnostic, check base timing and check to make sure it advances. But the car died on way way to the timing gun. Woah, i run out of gas.

This car has not used half a tank of gas since its been sitting. My car is definately burning way too much gas. Well i knew it was running rich, her exhaust is black. And it stays black all day. But then why would it be running lean and making red headers?

I also tried my MAfd before this. the engine refused to run with the maf connected. Would initiate preignition, then die. Everytime. That part alone is more then $100. I think i am definately converting to carb now. But still help me figure this out.

Even tho i have no gas. I think i'll do a compression check in about an hour, when the engine cools down.

 

first thing is it sounds like you have way too much fuel. You should lower the fuel pressure (if possible) enough to reduce the flowrate to approximatly stock, or a little more. There are formulas that can be used to estimate teh needed fuel pressure. Id try not to go too low, however, as teh injectors may not work properly.

With the maf connected, it sounds like the engine may be getting way too much fuel when it sees airflow.

If you cant lower your fuel pressure, put the stock injectors back in. With the MAF, this will ensure the correct fueling. Unlike SD, the MAF is used to calculate the needed injector duty cycle on most of the ecms, and if the injectors are larger then whats in the prom, youll have way too much gas.

 

hmmm....i dont know exactly.

but i am almost dead sure on converting to carb now.

its easy to tune, cheap to fix most problems. And the whole swap can be done for $250, with intake, carb, dizzy, FPR, brackets/cables, and lines.

I can sell the TPI setup for $300, and make out like a bandit. Some gets the "Hassle free" EFI, and i get the setup i've always needed/wanted.

 

Thats a bit of a draconian measure, dont you think? Part of your problem is that, from your other thread, you just banged some larger injectors in there when you didnt need to use them right away. Putting the stock ones back in and hooking up the MAF will ensure that the fueling is reasonable.

After that you should at least be able to close in on the problem a little easier if the engine is getting the correct ammount of fuel. It really sounds like there are possible mechanical issues as well, so you may end up spending hundreds on a nice carb and dist. and have the same problems all over again.

BTW, Ill consider buying the entire setup off you for $300.

 

mechanical problems?

like you mean valvetrain?

the engine doesn't make any wierd sounds or anything. I'm sure the engine is fine.

I still need to go do the compression check. Will that solve your question of whether there are mechanical problems? Because i'll go do that now, i need to anyhow before it starts to rain.

But if your serious about buying the TPI setup, then when i convert, you'll be the first i'll contact.

My only doubt in my mind is when i convert. I am gonna need to rebuild the carb, and change the spark curve, refreshen the dizzy. When i do this, i am putting myself in a place i dont think i want to be. Having to tune the carb so i can start, before i know that spark is happeneing correctly is gonna be fun. But i'm sure i can do it.

 

A MAF relay is only ~$12.

 

here are my compression check stats. With my headers cylender's number 5 and # 8 are hardest to get to and a hassle if that. I didn't do them.

I rounded to the closest 5.

#1- 160psi
#3- 180psi
#5- ~
#7- 170psi

#2- 160psi
#4- 165psi
#6- 170psi
#8- ~

Oil pressure is at 40-45psi while cranking. 45 while warm.

OH and all of my spark plugs were ptich black. The engine is running richer then a dream. Thats probly why my headers are red, right?


I'd have to say that my valves are tight and there are no mechanical problems here.

 

Limp home mode with bigger than stock injectors with who knows what timing?

I think you should probably fix the code issues first (MAF?), get it to go into closed loop operation and go from there. One step at a time, it's not as difficult as you are making it out to be.

Start with a MAF relay and a decent manual.

 

Curiosity on something else... what knock sensor are you using in that 350, and what chip is in the '305 ECU'? I think you may need to star tover with all the info and all the problems and I think you may find your way through this wthout resorting to a carb conversion... particularly since you seem to need help with tuning there as well.

 

its a 350 knock sensor, for a 87 350 TPI.

its the stock 86 305 computer.

And a carb conversion will be the easiest way and cheapest/most profitable way out.

I've seft tought myself in the past couple days how to tune a carb, change jets and the such. Research and diagrams help me understand how things work and that allows me to visualize what i need todo to fix things.

With the EFI iots all computer controlled.

I'm tired of dealing with a MAF, maf burnoff, TPS, IAC, and all that crap associated with EFI. Its all bull.

But timing was dead on as far as base timing goes. ITs just that i cant confirm that the dizzy added more advanmce after that. although i do know it added advance when i pulled it from the 305.

So i'm sure it adds advance now.

The fact my plugs were all pitch black, and were brand new when installed. The fact my gas tank is now emnpty, and it hasn't run half a tank work of gas yet. Just tells me it is running rich. Compression looked ok. But i'm sure the numbers were low due to the simple fact the engine is brand new. the piston rings have to be broken in for a full seal.

 

here are two of my pitch black spark plugs,

as you can see they were running rich. There was no lean condtion here. all 6 i pulled looked identical.

 

OK, here's something for you, from my personal experience going from a 305 SD TPI to my current 383 set up.

First, the 350 knock sensor is NOT compatible with the standard 305 computer. You HAVE to change out the 305 chip for a 350 chip, otherwise the knock sensor circuitry will not read the knoock sensors output correctly. It sould be seeing lots of non-existant knocks and be severely retarding the timing because of the non-compatibility of the chip and sensor.

Is the check engine light flashing quickly and continuously? If not, I doubt you're in limp home mode. I think it does that to show when that drastic condition is in effect. So you may just have everything way confused ECM wise.

I'd hook all the sensors back up and put in a 350 chip. You have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator so go get a guage and lower the pressure a few PSI below the standard 43 to offset the larger than normal 350 injectors (22 is stock vs. your 24's). Even with no changes it should still run fairly well, as long as you use a 350 chip instead of your current 305 version. Using that 305 chip is most likely what's causing it to run so rich IMO. Plus if the MAT and IAT are disconnected it could be adding tons of fuel to compemsate for what the ECM thinks is an extremely cold condition (0 volts/steps output from the sensors).

Also - get a piston stop and verify that TDC is marked correctly on the balancer. It's very common for different balancers (and particularly if they're a different diameter) and pointers to not line up correctly. Found that one out the hard way myself.

Once you have the timing set correctly with a known good TDC mark (do NOT trust your current mark!), adjust the valves with the motor running. That's the only sure way to set valve lash. Everything else is just an approximation to get you in the ball park to get the motor running.

Do this and then we can try and go farther with whatever problems you're having. I suspect this will do a lot to clear up the worst of your problems.

 

my car is MAF, not SD, and is a 86 I dont have knock modules. The knock sensor is the only thing i needed to change.

I did the research, and FI is going out, and carb is coming in.

 

Sad, I don't think going to a carb is going to help much since you seem so unwilling to learn or listen. Might as well get a powerglide and some 4wheel drums.


before you go junking anything else, try advancing the timing with the est hooked up and the knock sensor disconnected. If it starts to idle and doesn't glow you know your marks are off.

 

Starting to sound like a broken record, but you need to fix that rich cond. before you do anything else. It looks like its so rich that its possibly bridging the gap with soot particles and just generally washing the plug down with gas. That alone will cause some serious misfiring issues, which could be the cause of your problem. Put the stock injectors back in if you have them, or get a chip from someone that has the correct injector constant. Fix whatever is wrong with the MAF, and fix teh CS injector. Then take it from there.

Also, once you have the fueling issues fixed, you can then play with the timing and see if that helps. If your in doubt about the timing mark (I always am with alot of these balancers), you can just asvance it by ear and with a vacuum gauge (with the est connected this time). Shoot for best vacuum and idle.

 

i set the mark however.

before i put the heads on i put the engine at TDC, and made my TDC mark on the balancer.

The problem is, TPI hold the car back in peformance anyways. Why would i be feeling like i need to keep it?

I understand howto fix my car. Replace the computer. Fix maf problems. And the such. But the whole idea of Fuel injection is the hinderance. I want to be able to tune, and everything on my own. Having FI IMO is just, All real power is made with carb. Intake changes are easier and everything.


But keeping TPI has to be benificial. And telling me i'll save on gas is not enough. I dont care what gas prices are i will drive. I will work my budget around driving. Never limit myself to how much i can drive. Convetting to carb is both profitable, and a benifit, in my need for the car. eeping it original is not a priority. ITs already been in a couple accidents. So i dont care about originality. But making it to my dream, is head priority.

sorry if it sounds liek i dont want to be helped. But thats not the case. IF anyone wants to buy the TPI system, them be my guest. I really dont want it.