Not sure if this is the right place for this but i wanna get it out there b4 others make the same mistake i did.

Anyway im building my 383 with a world motown block and afr 195 heads. I get the thing all assembled and on the dyno but once we fill it with water we find a slight problem. The motor starts leaking water on all 4 corners between the heads an the block. Long story short, we run the motor in hopes that the heat expansion will fix the problem but no luck. After we tear it down we come to find that the heads dont cover the the lower water passages between 1-3, 5-7, 2-4 and 6-8. (pics below)

Anyways after muliple phone calls with AFR and them trying to pass the buck on to my block, i was finally told that the second run of the 195's incorperates slight modifications to the original design and they had no idea that they didnt work on world blocks.

So just a heads up to you guys think of running this combo, they are not compatible.

 

Arrows show were its leaking

 

Last one

 

I realized i put this in the wrong forum. Can the mod please move it to the engine forum thanks.

 

Wow, I would have NEVER thought of this (the water passages too large) as a problem. Does the Motown Block have this alignment problem with other heads too? Maybe the only heads that work with a Motown Block are the World Products heads?

 

just cram some jb weld in their!

 

I run GMPP fastburn aluminum heads on my Motown 350 block, no leaks.

 

Looks alot like what we all had to deal with back in the 70s, when "lightweight" castings first appeared....

The simplest solution I can see, is to drill & tap the holes in the block, and pipe-plug them, and machine the deck and plug flat; and drill a smaller hole in the plug for the water.

It is one of those "confluence of circumstances" kind of situations. Neither the block nore the heads, by themselves, are to "blame"; it takes both to create the problem. The holes in the block are a good bit bigger than stock, and the "scallops" along the edge of the AFR heads are deeper than stock. If either of those conditions did not occur it would work OK.

 

What sofaking said. Then go run the snot out of it.

 

I'm tempted not to move this thread, but to LOCK it.

This is a family site. NO pornographic images are allowed. I'm not sure that showing those bright red girdles is appropriate - Even though I rather like them. (Some more impressionable members might get the wrong idea.)

Wow. That bites. I'd be disappointed with that. I'm not sure I'd want to alter the brand new deck after getting that far with the assembly, but it's probably the right thing to do. Plugging is usually done to strengthen the deck, but you may end up doing it for a secondary purpose. About the only other option is to find different castings.

In either case, I think I'd be contacting both manufacturers and report my findings, relate my disappointment, and ask for thier suggestions. I wouldn't expect much help from either of them, but it would be best to remind them that they have some potential compatibility issues. Moreover, some aftermarket resellers might really like to know this so they don't get burned. SDPC, Jegs, Summit, and some of the larger parts retailers would probably like to be aware of this. Pressure from those reseller on the manufacturers might have some influence.

 

i did contact both manufacturers, World was super friendly and easy to deal with but AFR was another story. As for fixing this, now that im this far along id rather not touch the block or have to weld up and new set of heads so im selling the afrs and going with brodix track 1s. Just easier

Also we beleive that it is just a problem with the 195 casting, For comparison we dropped on some AFR 210, AFR 220 and few different brodix heads and they all were fine. So far we only see and problem with that combo of parts (the 195s).

 

if u bought the afr heads directly, i would send them back, even if they are the best flowing, that gives no reason for them to be jerks in the service department.

glad your going with something else.

 

How old are those afr heads?

 

They wont take them back because i had the spring pockets machined to accept larger springs for my solid roller cam.
As for there age lol, they have 10 minute of running time on them. We just ran the motor for break in and pulled them off to find the problem. They are basically brand new.

 

I can Solve your Problem!!! I have a Brand New set of GMPP Fast Burn Heads,that i would Trade for your Heads,a Little WELDING wont bother Me! Let me know,Thanks Greg 231 690 5075

 

I'm looking at my set of AFR 190s that are about 3 years old now. They're the same castings as the 195s but they don't make them any more. Maybe my eyes are deceiving me but I don't think my heads are scalloped out quite as much in the area you are having problems.

Man, I feel for you. That's a heck of a way to find out.

I would wonder if the head couldn't be welded up in that area- extending it out maybe 1/4" and then just machined flat again where it compresses the head gasket. That would make it essentially like my older style AFR head. If you've ever seen a destroyed aluminum head welded up and machined down again you KNOW those guys can do magic with them. Actually, this sounds like it might be a fairly minor operation.

 

good choice.

although, a even better choice would be their 18 degree heads.....

 

- and just think, most AFR guys rag on Toplines' supposed "mis-fitments"... -

- ouch man, sorry to hear that. If I'd spent what you obviously have on that combo and had a problem like that those heads would be taking someone at afr's head off...I bet I could hurl the hell outta those things w/ that kind of rage...

 

If you already have the block assembled, then just have more material welded onto the heads and then have them milled, problem solved.

I've broken pistons and had the pieces slam into the chambers on my AFR 190's. Got them welded up and re-milled, no big deal.

 

That is just bad taste for afr not to work with u on the problem.Even if u had ur spring pockets machined.Why should u take a loss on a poor design, i would be calling my lawyer and/or taking them to small claims court.

 

Just a Thought!
If you purchase a Set of OFFSET Dowels,and drop the Head down?This posssibily could also take care of the problem???Sounds to me like this is where the problem is?Maybe these were machined to far up on the Heads?Later Greg

 

do that, and you'll have to elongate every head bolt hole. possibly check pushrod hole clearance, and possibly have to mill/modify the intake manifold to fit.

more trouble then help.

 

I DID NOT say to move the Head,down a 1/2! .030 would probably be enough?But ,there always the Welding Option?Thatt would probably only cost 2 to 400.00 by the Time you remacine the Heads?Then you have a New set of Heads that have been Welded,and the Market for those are REAL HIGH!Just trying to HELP the Guy out with a reasonable Fix?You know a set of Dowels would more than likely cost at least 5 or 6 Bucks???Later Greg

 

I agree more trouble than there worth. If i went ahead and welded them id be in to them for way more then its worth.

Anyways ive already assembly and dynoed the motor witht the new track 1s, So the afrs are up forsale.

 

You are correct, the early castings from afr were not scalloped out nearly as much as these new castings are. I really dont see the point in it. I mean how much weight could you possably save by doing this, and in my opinion, the mounting surface of the head is the last place id be looking to save weight.

 

How did the track 1s do.

 

Well i never made any power pulls with the AFrs to compare but the motor made 491hp carbed with the track 1's. Its alot more than i expected considering i built this motor for a twin turbo setup and it only had 8:1 compression. We didnt even tune the thing, we bolted it back up and pulled it 3 times. So needless to say im pretty happy with the results.

 

U have a pretty strong motor even before the turbo.Not bad for 8 to 1 motor.

 

Thanks, im shooting for over a 1000 to the wheels.