I'm just finishing up the rear suspension on my car rebuild here, so i'm finally able to start the motor work. I dropped off my 010 block, 2 bolt, at the machine shop just now. I wanted to get some opinions and suggestions and such from members here if I may.
(keep in mind all prices here are CA $, so if a price seems high.... it is....)

-So far i'm planning on re-using the stock crank, I was quoted $120 or so to grind it and polish it
-I was quoted $240 to resize my rods, and add ARP bolts. I think I may try to get ohio rods, as they're about the same price to me. Sound ok?
-He told me it'd be a VERY good idea to have it balanced ($340), since the bobweights on the crank may not match up good to the rods and pistons, and rods are sometime 8-10grams out.... That sounds high $...?

- I want to use my 416 heads, but the guy at the machine shop told me that the intake port is tiny, 150cc, and that i'd be WAY better off with a 350 head, due to the correct bore size. He was showing me some nice FI heads he was doing, classy 193 heads.... I've seen completely backwards logic on this site, ie, that 416 heads are better than 193s...what gives??

-I guess he'll be hot tanking, cleaning the block, and installing cam bearings and freeze plugs now, then rough boring to check the overbore size, so I can pick pistons.

-He wanted pistons in hand to finish hone it, I was thinking about speedpro/trw/whatever hypers, but I wanted to cc the 416 chambers first, so I can pick the dish size for pistons. He recommended I bolt the heads on the 350, scribe the bore size onto the heads, then unshroud the intake valve. So I guess this will be a long process of bringing parts back and fourth....

I'll be using a lunati 60103 cam (227/234@.050) , with 1.6 summit roller tip rockers (.535" max lift), and be shooting for a 2-6k RPM power band, 99% street car. Am I on the right track so far? Any suggestions ? I'm trying to keep this fairly cheap, hence the 416 heads, etc. I already have the rockers, and i've got my heart totally set on that cam.

Thanks!!

 

-just get a new scat crank, as i remember they are under 200$ from most magazines...

-240$ is to mush to lay down on your stock rods, i bought a set of stock rods with arp fasteners for 100$ at northern

-balancing is a good idea, i didnt do it but its a good idea

-416 heads, use them you already have them, make sure they are uncracked and true, port them, 3angle valve job, screw in studs(with the lift you are wanting to run you must do this), may have to open up the spring seat as well to allow the right spring to be used, by this time and judging the prices you have shown you could have gotten on ebay and bought new dart iron eagle 180cc head for the 600$ range, very good head for you set up.

- "I guess he'll be hot tanking, cleaning the block, and installing cam bearings and freeze plugs now, then rough boring to check the overbore size, so I can pick pistons. "yes, yes, yes, yes, pick speed power flat tops with 2 valave relief, they are hyperutectic and will give you a good compression, a tad under 10 to 1 if im not mistaken. some one chack that...

-you dont want any dish on the pistons, save the valve reliefs. unshrouding the valves is a good plan.

-i have the lunati 60103 cam, i love the cam. i would go with the 60104 if i could start over, but for you set up its good. i would stick with the 1.5 roller rockers, that cam has enough lift for you. " 2-6k RPM power band, 99% street car. " i'd say you are on the right track. and you already have the rockers, oh well. for sure check all the geometry when its set up.

-suggestions, rpm intake, gasket match intake and head ports{fel pro 1205 gasket}, 650 carb, hooker 2055 headers, check your cooling system for any problems, lt1 or mini starter, msd 6al and other components, fuel system better than stock is prefered i went mechanical pump have had no problems, doble roller timing chain, fluid damper, alum wtr pump, one piece push rods, upgrade or at least replace the whole oiling system no need for high pressure high volume is better, arp fasteners are the best imo

cant think of any thing more to add
-doug

 

yea, i've got the same plan for the intake manifold and other accessories, but i'm still a ways away from that yet...

yea, that $200 crank is US$. To me i'd probably be lucky to get it for $300-$350. I'm trying to save some coin, so i'll most likely stick with this crank. Unless it's pooched, then i'll get a 383 crank

northern eh ? i'll look into that then...

the head package they offered included : magging, surfacing, bronze guides, valve seats, and spring balancing (? forgot to ask what that was about). I'd be upgrading to 1.94 intakes for $80 as well. I'll be doing screw in studs too. the head package was $340 I think, plus the $80 = $420. I think the darts, (again, in canada), would be upwards of $900.... I'd sure love to but...

the reason I wanted to go to dished pistons, was that with a .025" deck height, and .039" gasket, i'd be looking at a high quench valve, 'specially at 10:1 cr. I figured i'd take the stuff home, mock it up with the pistons I got, measure the distance down to the pistons, (hopefully 10cc dishes or more), then check deck height etc, and get the block decked to give me 9.8:1 or so, and close to ideal quench..... I'm having a tough time trying to get .040" quench, cheap hyper pistons, and use the 416 heads....

 

oh canada not california...

 

oh yea, and can someone explain compression height to me? is 1.56 the norm? If it's 1.54 does that mean it increases your piston depth by .020"?
Just trying to find some suitable pistons...

 

no other thoughts or opinions?

I'm hoping to find some relatively cheap, hyper, dished pistons, and i'm coming up empty...? Anyone know of any?
10cc-18cc dish is ideal...

 

The best hyper pistions i can find are the Speed Pro, from summit at around $230 US with Rings.. If you really want to push it, you could get some forged Probe Pistions from CNC-Motorsports.com, for $400-$450 US, and they are lite. But you would need to get a set of rings for them.

The price on the crank isnt that bad, and it will be fine up to 6k, aslong as your not making over 400hp at the flywheel. Rotating parts are streesed the most by RPM, and detonation, not really so much power.

I always feel safer going with rods that are considered overkill for my application. In your case i would also check out the Scat rods on CNC-Motorsports , they are $189.99us for a set. And will handle your 416 heads, and 350/possible 383 needs. If you can spare some money, go with a 6" rod.

Im sure you can handle making the 416 heads perform.

How much power are you shooting for?

 

I'm hoping for mid 300 HP, say 350 to throw out a #... The machinist told me with those heads I was dreaming, but I'm pretty set on those heads, and by the end of the day, faster than the LG4 would make me happy.

I was hoping to get close to .044" quench, but with 416 heads, I can't seem to find any relatively inexpensive pistons that are dished... Sealed power I can't find any other than 5cc valve reliefs... KBs are double the price..... I found H580
's by speed pro, which are dished, but I can't find any specs on them...??
Thanks

 

Why do you want dished?

 

Well, alright, i'll open my mind here, here are my needs:

-58-60cc 416 heads, with 1.94 intakes, after unshrouding valves, lets say it's 60cc

-cheap hyper pistons (this is the variable)

-.039" head gasket

- pump gas

-good quench?

I'm running through static CR calcs, and if I do NOT deck the block, i'd have 10:1cr, and .065" quench... If I deck the block for better quench, my CR goes through the roof, so I'd want 14cc dish pistons (in a perfect world)..... I'm not sure what gasket bore I should be using in a CR calc... Either way...

What is my best option here?
oh yea Ape, I went with D&W, Rod seems like he knows his stuff there.

 

Keith Black has some dished hypers that might work, the KB142s have an 18cc or so dish. They might be more than you're looking to spend though.

Getting the quench height right would be nice, but might not be worth the additional cost after the block has been decked and you've had to use dished pistons with those heads.

 

exactly, the KBs are $350 say, and the speed pros are $200... Plus decking the block....
do I have any other options? hogging out the chamber in the heads, maybe the piston too, and not worrying about quench, and using the 5cc valve relief pistons?

 

If the block is warped then it might need to be decked anyway, so it would be "free" in that case. Maybe you could use a thicker head gasket to keep the compression ratio under control for now until you could replace the heads down the road?

 

hmm, ok...

What about other dished pistons? Factory style cast perhaps?

 

I would also pay to have it align honed so you could use ARP main studs as well. It was $175 to get it align honed. Balancing costed $250 and any extra mallory metal which had to be added was 65 a slug. I would also tap the front 3 oil gallery plugs and put pipe plugs in instead of the pressed in ones. Hot tanked also ran me about 80. For the heads I had them decked to clean which was 60. tanked 40, 3 angle valve job was 275. I als ohad the spring seats cut for larger springs and also had new viton seals installed.

 

hmm, do I need it align honed to use ARP main bolts? or just studs? I'll think about that one...

I just realized that I can get a head gasket in pretty much any thickness I want (wowza eh?), AND with different bore sizes, now that bore size of the gasket makes a pretty big difference on the static CR.... Does it matter if I use a 4.030 gasket, or a 4.1" gasket? I could drop my CR nicely that way....
Can I use a .015" shim gasket, or is that not a good idea?

still trying to find other piston manufacturers, found SIL1470, KB142, speed pro H580 or H640.... gotta get more info on some of these...

Thanks

 

I think i'll be using SIL1470, 13cc dish, cast aluminum.

 

how would this work for me?

 

You left off the original stock .025" of deck clearance. Those cast rebuilder's pistons have AN ADDITIONAL .020" of clearance, so they're actually down in the hole about .045". Which puts your "quench" at around .070".

I would CERTAINLY not build that combo, at that CR, with that poor of a setup. There's no way that will run right on pump gas, or anything close.

 

I know it has an additional .020, the info I posted meant i'd 0 deck the block for conventional pistons, therefore leaving the additional .020 gap. Then use a short .025" or so gasket to give me .045 quench.

With the .025 assumed deck height, and 58 cc 416 heads, what are my other GOOD options then? The machine shop suggested sealed power H345's I think, flat top 5cc reliefs. Those listed to be ~10:1 CR, and i'd still have .070 quench. Or KB142's, with 18cc dishes, and 0 deck the block, but those Kb's are double the price.
Suggestions here are more than welcome.

 

Compression Height

The compression height is the distance from the center of the pin hole to the deck of the piston. ROSS custom pistons are available in any practical compression height to compensate for stroker or destroker cranks, long rods, or blocks which have been milled excessively, etc.

To calculate the compression height, use the following formula:

Block Height minus 1/2 the crank stroke, minus the rod length, minus the deck clearance (amount piston is "in the hole").

For example, a 350 Chevy engine with a stock 3.480 stroke, stock length 5.700 rod, standard .017 deck clearance and standard 9.025 block height would be:

3.480 stroke divided by 2 = 1.74

9.025 - 1.740 - 5.700 - .017 = a compression height of 1.568.

The above formula should help with figuring out your compression height. If you already knew this formula, I apologize. My question's are:

1. How much do you intend to invest?
2. Have you cc'ed the chambers to maybe 64-72cc's, or are you dead set against that?
3. What's more important to you, power or gas mileage?

I don't remember who it was, but someone said that rpm's, not hp, really determines the parts you should use. They were absoulutely right, and deserve a pat on the back. If you're dead set on the heads you've got, then going to a 64+ cc would help you to reach your desired compression ratio. If mileage is high on your list, I wouldn't go over 222 degrees of duration for your cam. Surprisingly enough, you can reach your hp goals with a cam that has only 208 degrees of duration using different heads. The main thing is to get your heads done and see what they flow before you pick your camshaft. Another thing to remember is that opening your chambers to a higher numerical chamber size will also open the door to some of the cheaper pistons out there. A thicker head gasket will also help you to achieve that goal, but the thicker the gasket, the more chance that you could have a head gasket failure. It's probably not an issue below 10.5:1 compression, but worth saying. Hypereutectic pistons will serve you well and provide years of enjoyment as long as you are running a naturally aspirated mill. One very important point of interest is that Chevy changed the way they made the connecting rods in 89. The new process made those rods weaker, and in my opinion, not worth the time or money it takes to do any work on them. Balancing and blueprinting isn't necessary, but if you can afford it, it's definately worth it. With money invested any insurance is good insurance. Just my opinions here, but I hope they help.

 

well, I have the tools to port these heads, and the heads (ready to be removed from the old block). I don't have access to any better heads, without a fair outlay of cash or time, both of which I don't have. I was under the impression from reading posts on this forum that these are worthwhile heads, now i'm thinking differently...

My main concern here is price. Everything is 30%-50% more for me basically. (canada) The machine shop told me the "cheap" speed pro hyper pistons are $200. Summit shows a set for $100, so there's the reasoning behind my cheapness.

I didn't think I could open up the chambers more than a couple of cc's...? If I can, i'd open 'em up a fair bit, and run the cheap flat top hypers from speed pro.

This is going to be a street car, but not really a daily driver, I won't be putting more then 10,000miles on the car per year, so mileage, and longevity, and reliability are not as high of a concern. I'm going for cheap, and power.

I think the forged I beam rods from ohio are my best bet so far.

 

Talk to your machinist and see how much the heads can be opened up in cc's. If they started as 58cc units, I would think they could be taken to at least 62-64cc's if not more. One place you could check for some cheap parts is Perfomance Automotive Warehouse, or P.A.W. 818-678-3000 is their phone number. You can call it to get a catalog from them. It takes like 6 weeks to get it, but that thing is huge,lol.

 

I am running Silvolite dished pistons in my 355 with 081s. I belive they are a 12cc dish from what i remember and my CR came out to 9.7:1 with a standard gasket.

 

really? now that's helpful, thanks! remember which pistons exactly? I think that'd be the 1470s?
runs ok?

 

You're making this a lot harder than it needs to be.
Do you have Sunoco 94 in Calgary?

 

haha, sure seems like it doesn't it?
What are your thoughts/suggestions F-bird? Think the 416 heads will work with some somewhat cheap pistons?

-I'm thinking SIL1470 cast 12cc dishes (cheap), mill the block

-KB142s, hyper, 18cc, (expensive!) probably mill the block

-sealed power H345's I think, 5cc reliefs, BIG head gasket, brutal quench. (cheapest overall)

I would imagine so on the sunoco, but i've never seen one...? Maybe Apeiron or Sitting Bull know...

 

hmm, apparently not, sunoco exists mostly in ontario, despite headquarters being here in calgary (SUNCOR).... damn.
So I assume I can get 93 octane as the highest, easily.

 

compression height = deck height minus 1/2 crank throw minus rod length.
example my 388:
350 Deck height 9.025" machined to 9.000"
Minus 1/2 of 3.75" crank 1.875"
Minus rod length 6.000"
---------------------------------------
Pistion Comression height = 1.125"

Chambers are 64cc
Gasket is .041"
JE/SRP alum forged piston with 16cc dish for 10:1 CR.

 

i'm running a set of speedo pro H345NP pistons and they have 4 valve reliefs. they are advertised at 9.25:1 c/r with a 64cc head. i'm running a 58cc aluminum l98 head with an .039 corteco head gasket with the block being decked .010. this put me right at 10.1-2:1 (can't remember, figured it out so long ago.) the pistons are advertised at 10.02:1 w/ standard deck height and a 58cc head.

these pistons can be found on ebay for around $100 or so with rings and wrist pins....i suggest looking into them!

 

yea nova, those are the ones my machinest was suggesting I use as well... I just was worried about the 10:1 on iron heads, street driven...

 

I called my machinist earlier and they are the 1470s. I got them for $50 with pins brand new

 

I have also gotten a set of Rods from nothern. They were reconditioned with the ARP bolts for $100

The stock crank will do fine. David Vizard has done much testing with stock cranks and had suprising results. He was able to spray an engine (N20) (350 with a 2 bolt main stock rods and crank, cast pistons) to 1,200 Hp before anything broke. Amazingly what actually broke was the Cylinder wall of the block. This proves that a stock crank is up to the challenge of your average street engine.

Dished pistons are not a bad idea either. Dished pistons offer no extra shrouding or negative flame travel. they also have an increased surface area for contact with the burn. Any name brand hypereutectic is a good one.

Assembly the engine meticuosly and you will be fine.

 

If you want to go to the bother of building a "quench motor" with proper quench you have to use a D dish style dish piston. A round dish piston will not give the quench effect.
No better than a flat top with no decking . ( no effective quench)

If you are on a "budget":
I'd just build it with the Hp345's on a non decked block with a standard felpro gasket and run good gas. Good 93 or 94. Pioneer is owned by Sunoco and I think Husky/Mohawk (out west) has "Performance Plus"94. If you can get the Sunoco 94 use it.

if you want a quench motor get a d dish piston and make the total piston to deck clearance no less than .035" and no more than .045" including the gasket. .038 to .040" is best.

Hp 345's are .045" or more down in the bore at TDC on a stock block. (1.54" compression height spec) there are other flat tops and d dish pistons that have the stock 1.56" pin height spec. I believe Federal Mogul has some new ones.

use Champion RV8C or AC R42T plugs. Stock R44TS or R46TS plugs are for a low cr motor and are too hot for your purposes.

Once you've releived the 416's chambers to allow the larger valves they will be larger than 58cc. More like 61-64cc.
Do not open up the chamber edge to exacly match the bore wall. ( you're removing too much material in one spot) Just enough to clear the larger valves. The area within 5/8' of the spark plug is the area that needs deshrouding.
Do not grind the raised spark plug boss in the chamber.
the 416's will need *full on porting* to make the power you want. Don't be shy here. They are much larger than 150cc stock more like 157. Should be near 180cc when done.
Plan on removing some serious metal. Don;t lower the port floors. Don;t bothe with the 193 heads, they are swirl port design. The 416's will get the job done with full porting and 1.94 x 1.60 valves.

 

oh yea, i'm set on the 416's, i've just about got them out of the car, i'm kinda sick now, so right now i'm doing more buying parts, then turning wrenches...

well sh**.... I just gave the go ahead to the machine shop to use the 12cc dish cast AL "engine tech" brand cheapo pistons... He said he needs pistons in hand to finish hone it to an exact spec... And couldn't bore the engine until I had decided on pistons... all in the learning experience I suppose...
hmm, what about H423s? Just found those, 10cc hyper dish...

After I get the block back, scribe the bore onto the heads, and port the snot outta them, cc them, my cr may be too low, with these pistons..I thought I'd be lucky to get the heads to 60cc... I might be able to get him to re-hone the block and swap me to the H345s, as those hypers are only $40 more for a set... we'll see....

 

ok, upon further research, I'm a little confused.


On keith blacks website, (snapshot on left) I can enter the parameters to check my compression ratio. On other websites (snap shot on right), I can find the piston, and it shows federal moguls chart. According to federal mogul, I get 9.3:1 CR with those nice cheap H345's. I'm fine with that. That makes me happy. On my own calculations, I get 9.8ish:1, assuming I can get up to 64ccs on the heads.

If I trust FM, i'm fine. If I trust other calculators, i'm in trouble. I think i'll call up the machine shop and see if he's bored the block yet, and if not, swap to either the H345's, or the H423's... I just don't want to use a cast 12cc dish piston, and in the process of opening up the chambers to use 1.94 valves, end up dropping my cr to sub 9:1....

 

Their compression ratio figures are guidelines, assuming a certain head gasket thickness and deck clearance.

 

yea, I tried to duplicate it, ie, same .025" deck height as mentioned in the piston ad, and assumed a .041" gasket....
still 1/2 a point off??? That's a pretty notable difference...


anyway, i'm putting through a rather large summit order for other parts needed... with respect to main/rod bearings:

SUM-172010 - half groove, silicon aluminum bimetal
FEM-4663M10 - full groove, tri metal, copper lead alloy
CLE-MS909P10 - half groove, tri metal, same as above but clevite

FEM-4663MA10 - 3/4 groove, bimetal, "MA series"

These are all pretty close in price, summits house brand being half price though, I was wondering what difference there is for groove size, and metal content...? the last one is a "performance bearing" ...? Should I just get the cheap summit ones, or...?

 

The H345s are an extra .020" down in the hole. Deck clearance for them should be .045", as opposed to the .025" for the KBs. And of course at that point, "quench" is out the window. But the CR is low enough that it's probably not so much of an issue.

 

sofa, f-bird, I'm seeing that the H345's have a compression distance of 1.56, on that snap shot from northern auto, and also from federal moguls website...? So they should keep the same "in the hole" distance, of roughly .025" or whatever. (right?)


the two snapshots, from KB's website calculator, and on the right, from northern auto, the clip from a federal mogul catalogue, are both supposed to be for the same H345NP piston. I can't understand why my (Kb's) calculations show 9.77, and in the federal mogul catalogue, it shows 9.35. I tried to put in the values in the KB calculator to be as accurate as what I thought FM would be using...?

 

last I checked the FM catalog the hp 345 pistons had a 1.54" compression height typically .045" down the bore at TDC.

They were 1.54" in my old 350.

4.03" bore
3.48" stroke
.045" deck clearance
4.166" gasket bore dia
.039" gasket thickness
5cc valve relief vol
64cc cylinder head volume

= 9.349:1 compression ratio

 

aha!! I'll be damned f-bird, I didn't check that calculation.... On FM's website they show that height as 1.56, but they did on the SIL1470's too, and I had to email them and ask to confirm, and they told me they're 1.54....

Well hey, 9.3:1, flat top, .080 quench distance, that should be pretty usable right? I'll try to contact the machine shop and have him swap me to those, he's probably still got the block in the hottank

EDIT: 4000' altitude helps effectively lower the compression due to lack of density doesn't it? I mean, kinda grasping at straws, but it is a good rather than bad thing right?

Thanks! updates on porting to come

 

k, phoned up the machine shop and told him to use the H345's instead. Thanks for the heads up guys! (he confirmed the 1.54 comp height there..)


any thoughts on my bearings Q?

 

I'll probably get a whipping for this, but what the heck. You might want to check out this paper and read about detonation and quench.
http://www.speedomotive.com/Building%20Tips.htm
I'll quote a slice of it:
"If you have 10:1 with a proper quench and then add an extra .040" gasket to give 9.5:1 and .080" quench, you will create more ping at 9.5:1 than you had at 10:1. The suitable way to lower the compression is to use a dish piston. Dish (reverse combustion chamber), pistons are designed for maximum quench, (sometimes called squish), area. Having part of the combustion chamber in the piston improves the shape of the chamber and flame travel."
I suggest different piston and thinner head gasket echoing what F-bird said.

 

the ONLY option I could find, was the KB142s, with an 18cc dish, then 0 decking the block, and using a .039 thk head gasket. Combined with the 58cc heads, that would be pretty good.
However those pistons are $500, and decking the block would be $160. Right now i'm using $200 pistons, and not decking. I don't have an extra $450 or so, just to get perfect quench unfortunately.

 

Why the thick head gasket? An .016 steel gasket would make working the numbers much easier.

 

Don't use "full groove" main bearings. Use stock type clevitte 77's.

Superviser is right you can get an extra 1/2 cr by substituting thin head gaskets.
CC your heads after they are finished and measure assembled deck clearance before selecting the head gasket thickness. the shim gaskets are not expensive.

If you follow my recomendations for sparkplug heat range and use good gas (93-94 octane) you'll be fine even thou the motor does not have proper quench effect clearance.
It all comes down to dollars and cents. it would be nice to build a text book proper quench motor with decking and D dish pistons, but this is a budget build.

 

'zactly f-bird, budget build... I would have loved to buy the Kb's, but then again, I could have also bought other heads...


I will definately cc heads, measure pistons in hole, etc, before buying head gaskets...

f-bird, i'm not sure what "stock type" bearings mean, dual metal (AL/silicon), or tri-metal ?
half groove then? not 3/4 groove? I figured FM is almost the same as clevites as far as performance standpoint...

Thanks

 

I used the Clevite P Tri-metal bearings.

 

turns out, the block deck is pretty bad, and he needs to deck it anyway.... He figured it'd need .005" to clean it up, I told him to do .010", that helps me out a bit on the extra .020" piston depth.