i have my 406 in my iroc, went to put a starter from the existing engine on and noticed i need a staggered bolt starter. I am using a stock t5 with a old style 153 tooth flywheel, and a balancer plate, anyone using this combo and can lead me to a starter (preferrably mini due to long tubes) that i can use, all i see are starters for 168 tooth.

any help?

 

staggered oine is for 168 tooth

you need a straight across bolt nose if you have the 153


both will bolt to your engine block

this is a simple fix here
good luck

 

Yes, you need the straight across pattern starter. If the hole isn't on the block for the bolt, you'll have to drill and tap one, or find an aftermarket starter than will work.

 

Your block HAS TO have the right hole. Most 400 blocks didn't ("features from the future"), only some of the ones made in their last few years.

If it doesn't have the hole, you GOTTA drill it.

There is no starter that will work, aftermarket or otherwise, without the right hole. The holes that are there, if you were to locate the starter shaft at the correct distance from the crank to engage the smaller flywheel, if you put a bolt in them, the bolt would go RIGHT THROUGH THE MIDDLE of the starter drive.

Don't believe it when somebody tells you what you want to hear; that this or that or the other starter "ought to" work. Those would be the people that have never put a 400 and a T-5 in the same car, or who got lucky and their block was about a 78 or later. Unless somebody has invented offset bolts or a starter drive that has an offset in it, the 2 are incompatible. Better to take the 400 to a machine shop and have them drill it, rather than trying to lay on your back and get it as precise as it needs to be; if you drill the block and mess it up, it's gonna cost just that much more to fix it.

 

it would be simple if my block were drilled for both starter patterns thats my dilemma. I HAVE to have a staggered bolt starter

 

taking it to a machine shop is out of the question, i got this thing completely bolted together and then realized this. i had always seen them drilled both ways, and never dreamt this would be a issue.I know hays/centerforce make a flywheel that is 168 tooth, but is .7" bigger overall diameter. would that fit my t5 bellhousing? the hays flywheel is 13.5 whereas my stocker is 12.8XXXX

if the hays flywheel would work id just buy a flywheel and a 168 starter and go to town.

im lost right now and open to ideas.... id drill the hole myself if there was a way to be exact.

 

Doesn't sound like it....Better open up to the idea, it's the only one there is.



Sounds like you got some unbolting to do.


Nope.

There really aren't any other options.

Sorry, I'm just the messenger, the facts speak for themselves (and would even if I wasn't telling them to you...) it just kind of is what it is. better to go ahead and do what has to be done, on the front end, without trying to "get out of" it. Anything you do besides what needs to be done only prolongs the agony and runs up the tab and possibly destroys the block.

 

drill and tap the block or get a new bell housing and fly wheel as stated above.....been there and done that.....tao

 

have you done this?

 

im not for 100 percent sure but i think jegs makes a mini starter that will work on either size flywheel i could of swore i ran acroos this after pulling the engine and making a trip to the machine shop good luck

 

gm used the 168 tooth flywheel in early years because compression was higher on these engines

 

i went with a new bell housing so i could use a 12in. clutch.....but at the time i didnt know about the eng. off set and centered my eng. so there maybe issues that im not aware of with stock mountings....had to change alot of things to make mine work and wouldnt recommend my setup....but i dont see any reason why you couldnt get a different bell housing to work in a stock location ....tao

 

i think im just gonna buy a t56 or stall a th350. its way too much work to tear everything back down to make a weak t5 work. it makes no sense. I wanted to run the t5 to save a little bit before a bigger trans, but it never works out that way it seems. oh well.

still open to anything else if there may be. I know cough cough there isnt. but im sure creativity has set in somewhere.

 

T-56 will land you in the same situation (12.8" 153-tooth flywheel).

T-350 commonly uses a 14" (168 tooth) flex plate. In conjunction with a 3510 starter. But you could use either size of flex plate, the transmission does not care.

GM used the 14" (168 tooth) flywheel, because that's what they'd "always" used. No particular reason; it just seemed like a good idea at the time. They used that on eveything from the 6-cylinders and 283s of the 60s to 454s, right up until the introduction of the small lighter 12.8" setup in the late 70s.

Jeg's SELLS (but does not make) a mini starter that will work on either size; and many other distributors sell many mfrs' that will work with either size. Provided of course, THAT THE ENGINE HAS THE RIGHT BOLT HOLES DRILLED IN IT.

Yes I've actually put a 400 in front of a T-5 before, in my own car, with my own hand, unlike most other people who think they can answer this question.

 

but the t56 has a bigger bellhousing that will accept the hays 13.5 flywheel from what i hear.then my flywheel problem is solved and i can just have a bigger better tranny, and everything works.

 

Well I can't speak to that; I've never used a Hays flywheel with a T-56, so I don't know. You're kind of on your own there.

On the other hand, I'm hearing you say that it would be preferable to spend the $2000-2500 that it's going to take to put a T-56 in your car, along with all of the unbolting and re-bolting that goes along with that, to avoid drilling the hole. All of that labor and expense, as compared to the minor inconvenience of popping your engine out of your car and zipping it over to the machine shop to get one hole drilled and dropping it back in. Am I hearing right? Or am I missing something here? Granted, the T-56 is a much better transmission, as I can personally attest to since I have one in my car; but is that REALLY cheaper and/or easier than the other? Remember, you'd have to buy a transmission, hydraulics, torque arm, crossmember, and speedo conversion of some sort, as well as a flywheel and a clutch. And, have you "heard" yet, what clutch you'd use with this larger flywheel? I haven't, but maybe you have. You should be sure to establish what that would be, before spending any money on anything.

And if you DO decide to go that route instead of the cheap easy one, let us all know how it turns out, and what stumbling blocks you encounter along the way. You'll become the "expert" on that setup.

 

I was in this position a few months ago. Do a search and find my thread, I just drilled it and tapped it with the motor on the engine stand.
I used an extra long 5/16" drill bit, some 5/16 ID, 3/8" OD brass tube, as a guide, and bolted the starter in place with the one bolt.
I think it worked ok, but I am having some trouble now that might actually be related to that...

 

You need a starter with the staggered bolt pattern that works with a 153 tooth flywheel right? When I worked at NAPA a gentleman was looking for this same thing. He bought a starter for a newer four wheel drive 4.3 S10pickup and it worked. It was a mini starter also.

 

The staggered bolt pattern on a V8 is for 14" flywheel. NO WAY it will work with the smaller flywheel. The block needs the late-model "straight across" bolt pattern.

Paint yourself a mental picture of a starter, where the bolts go. Or even just go get one and look at it. Doesn't matter if it's a "staggered" one (3510 or 3560) or a straight one (6418). You've got a drive right in between them there, with the bolts immediately on either side of the drive, right? OK now imagine that you hold the bolts still, but you're going to move that drive over to one side by 5/8" (that being about how far it has to go to get from a 14" flywheel's ring gear to a 12.8" one's ring gear; half of the 1.2" difference, more or less). Have you got 5/8" of space before that drive runs into that bolt? Well THAT'S why you HAVE TO HAVE the right bolt pattern.

I can say this over and over and over again, I can even tell everybody that sooner or later somebody is going to come up with some kind of "this or that or the other starter 'ought to' work" drivel, and yet somebody always seems to put it up anyway (invariably, somebody that's never actually done it, for some odd reason). Pretty funny I guess, unless you're the poor gullible soul that falls for it and puts his motor in thinking that he's got it covered, and then discovers that it's WRONG.

The fact of the matter is, THERE IS NO MAGIC STARTER THAT WILL WORK. The problem isn't the starter, it's THE BOLT ITSELF that gets in the way. And since bolts go in bolt holes (profound, eh?!?!? ), that means that you gotta have the right bolt hole, to put the bolt in. Period.

 

i agree an absolutely agree but i was wandering with a mini starter or gear reduction if they made such a monster seems to me would be very reasonable because his bolt patern is at an angle with the bolt closest to the center sitting furthest from the flywheel someone needs to put in a call to jegs not that i dont believe you just seem as there should be something available i would but i must run to bad its in the car that part really sucks fabrication and makeing parts work together isnt always so easy

 

i have found the starter you need for your application it is made by CSR has offset bolt pattern for 153-168 tooth and retails at 259.99 hope this helps with your problem you can find it at jegs.com under part # 170-100sbp

 

thanks for makin me see that through you had me thinkin i was dead wrong there for a second and real world you were right but aftermarket world bingo i was there she is in all her big buck glory

 

Just so happens I have that exact starter, and I bought it while I had a 400 in my car. It worked great.... with one minor detail.....

I ADDED THE LATE-MODEL BOLT HOLE TO MY EARLY-MODEL 400 BLOCK

It WILL NOT work on a block without that bolt hole, unless you can buy a bolt with about a ½" offset in it.

 

I'm with Sofa... just add the hole. Its not hard to drill and tap cast iron, even with the motor in the car, like was done with my 350 to get it to work with a late starter. Its the only way to make it work.

 

any tips for doing this im gonna attempt it. i really have nothing to lose at this point.

shouldve just did a damn late model 350 i have laying on the garage floor

 

jegs has the starter you need give them a call

 

its made by csr and runs 259.99 just what you need

 

5/16" is the drill size to tap for 3/8"NC. Get an extra long drill bit. Get some way to guide your drill bit to the center.

I bolted the starter in place with the one bolt. Then I ran a center punch through the hole in the starter (the bolt hole) and punched the block.
Then I put the copper pipe drill guide in there. Cut it to length. Drilled until I punched through the casting. Then remove it all, and run a 3/8"NC taper tap in there.
Try and get that hole as perfectly placed, and perfectly perpendicular to the surface there as possible.

Here's my post from 6 months ago when I was in EXACTLY the same position as you are now:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...?highlight=153

 

i read your post, where did you get long bits to do this at?

also my block isnt broken like yours was, but i did notice two small cracks there, which leads me to believe im in the early stages of that.

anything i can do to remedy this before it gets out of hand? remember this thing is completely assembled and in the car.

 

also would any hardware store have that brass tube for a guide?

 

hmmm this is funny its advertised as an ofset starter an with gear reduction there is no need for a half inch offset bolt an while your out would you pick me one up im ready for it an stop buy home depot an pic me up a board strecher

 

if i were you id measure the id of the bolt hole or just take the starter with you get something that fits pilot the hole first marking your depth with tape then pull the sleave again mark the depth on corect size bit an your done

 

if i were you id measure the id of the bolt hole or just take the starter with you get something that fits pilot the hole first marking your depth with tape then pull the sleave again mark the depth on corect size bit an your done.

 

the brass tube is from a hobby shop. I forget the company who makes it, it's an acronym, starts with a K. Hobby shops (like where you get model planes and stuff) will have a little stand with this stuff.

I just got my local autoparts store to order me in a drill bit that's extra long. The mom and pop type auto parts store in this small town just have a courier that comes to them from a warehouse in the nearby large town. Call up fastener supply shops, industrial suppliers etc. Mcmaster carr or acklands grainger would have it, if you want to get it online.

I used a propane torch to heat the casting ears, then hit it with some "weld all" rod. It was suggested to me by a welding shop, it's meant for that sorta thing. If you can find some rods meant for cast iron, or just "nickel filler" rods, thats what you want. Most places that sell the rods want to sell you a few pounds = $250 or so. I went to a fabrication shop, they will sell their materials, then I just bought 3 rods = $6.
Heat it with the torch until your arm gets tired, then hit it with a small weld bead, then whip out your chipping hammer or peening hammer, and just tap it. That stress relieves it, and keeps it from cracking. Peen it for a few minutes, clean the weld, regrind it if need be, re-heat with torch and go at it again. Mine re-cracked a while later, (welding cast iron is NOT for the faint of heart...) So I re-did it, and I also used a chunk of grade 8 ready rod instead of a bolt, to try and take some stress out of the threads. I think however this isn't fitting tight enough in my starter bolt holes, and is causing my starter to rock and seize in the flywheel (Its like my motor just seized). But anyway....

 

sprojam, please do us all a favor; and quit arguing about this until you have some ACTUAL HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE with it. Since you haven't actually DONE it, you still haven't figured out what the obstacle is, that NO STARTER CAN POSSIBLY OVERCOME (because the problem is NOT the starter, it's THE BOLT LOCATION, and it therefore can't be fixed by way of ANY starter). Then when you've actually DONE this, as opposed to looking at catalogs and not understanding what they're talking about, THEN AND ONLY THEN you'll be qualified to give advice on the subject. In the meantime, you're not helping anyone.

Randy: the bolt is a 3/8"-16 thread. It does have one unique feature though; being a starter bolt hole, it has a section about 3/8" deep, that's a larger diameter and without threads. An actual starter bolt (which is different from any other bolt) has a little raised section right behind the threads. That section fits tight in the hole and in the starter, and makes a sort of dowel pin arrangement to positively locate the starter to the block. Measure that portion of a REAL STARTER BOLT, and drill that "dowel" section to give no more than about .005" of clearance to the bolt shank. The bolt hole needs to be exactly perpendicular to the bolck surface there, and VERY accurately located, so that the teeth mesh properly.

 

although i appreciate your comments and magazine comment and truelly understand what this guy is up against yes the mag was scoured threw the telephone call made to the vendor and the next step to the suppliers tech department i understand what he is doing and if he does not want to step up to a high torque mini starter thats ok an doing what hes doing is going to save a buck but the option is real an will work please do your home work in many cases fabrication is a must not this one an please do not ? my wrenching ability because i know something you dont thankyou very much

 

 

ok ur the man the good people at jegs and CSR are a bunch of liars and dont know what there parts will work on did you get that offset bolt an board stretcher yet sofaman

 

oh yeah this guy has figured out what he is going to do so lets see how he gets threw the project

 

sprojam, take a look how this starter would have to work. It's not possible to have one use that bolt hole unless the starter is like 3" long. Now that's one heck of a "ministarter".

Sofa, since you're here do you think using a chunk of 3/8" ready rod could cause the starter to rotate around the other bolt, therby causing the starter to "seize" in the flywheel and get stuck? I'm really perplexed by my problem.

 

that part is 3/8 drill

so what im thinking about doing.

bolting the one starter up there and lining everything up,

using a 3/ bit drill a pilot/mark hole 3/8 deep

change to the 5/16 drill bit, install the brass tube in the bolt hole of the starter to ensure straightness, and drill the rest and tap. that way the top part of the bolt hole is 3/8 non tapped for the starter bolt, and the rest is 3/8-16 for the threaded part of the bolt.

sound like a plan?

now ive just gotta find the bits and the brass tube, i already got a 3/8-16 taper tap.

think lowes would have the bits, i dont have any hobby shops around here, maybe i could find that brass tubing in a plumbing aisle maybe?

hoping to have this done by the weekend, it would be nice to drive the car for the first time in a year

 

ok found it. Tubing is made by K&S. Let your fingers do the searching (yellow pages) and call around and find it. A lot easier then dropping by hardware stores and driving all around town.
Should be $1.99 I think.

That drill bit isn't common, lowes won't have it (I doubt it). You'll probably have to get it from an industrial shop. Mine cost me $35.

That drilling method sounds like it'll work. I did the 5/16" first, but I think your way would work just about as well. Just try to figure out a way to keep your drill perpendicular.

 

Randy:

You'll need longer bits than the standard "jobber" length. AFAIK Lowe's and such places don't carry them. Best thing to do is order them from someplace like McMaster-Carr and have them overnighted.

I did similar to what Sonix did. Basically, used the starter housing as a big drill bushing. I've done it a couple of times on various motors over the years for other people as well. I don't recall what I used for a drill bushing in the starter housing, seems like it might have been a piece of steel brake line. I made a point of delibrately drilling the hole about ½ RCH farther away from the rear surface of the block than absolutely perfect. That way, the teeth meshed just slightly too much, and I could adjust it by adding shims. Whereas if the error had turned out to be toward the opposite way, there'd be no way to "un-shim" the starter to get more mesh; at least, none of the parts stores in my town have shims that make things thinner instead of making them thicker. Maybe some people around here know where to get things ilke that though, but I don't. I think they're in the same store with the offset bolts and the square drill bits.

Other than that, looks like a plan.



sprojam:

I see you still haven't figured out yet that this isn't about STARTERS, it's about starter
BOLTS

So, when YOU built YOUR 400 and put a T-5 behind it, what did YOU do about the starter BOLT that had to go RIGHT THROUGH THE MIDDLE of the starter drive?

And no, when I built my 400/T-5, I didn't use an offset bolt, so that the bolt would clear the starter drive; I DRILLED THE HOLE IN THE BLOCK so that the bolt could go through the starter someplace that the drive WASN'T.

I really shouldn't be having this argument at all; it's unbecoming of someone as stoooopid as myself.

 

Sonix:

Maybe; although more likely, the starter would tend to rotate itself away from the crank, instead of toward it.

What does the starter sound like when it's working? normal? or any kind of grinding/gnashing sound? or what?

 

all im telling you is what the people at jegs an csr are telling me believe me i have the sameblock an have looked i see what you are talkin bout what a pain they said it will work end of story im not tryin to rattle anyones cage just passing info that was giving to me usein your application you got her figured so lets forget it an heres to endless obstacles

 

It spun the motor over on the first crank, but didn't fire. Then the second crank it spun the motor then just kinda "seized" almost. Like there wasn't enough power to spin the motor anymore. I tossed my charger on it, but the battery was still charged fine.
I was thinking perhaps the starter rotated over and "locked" with the flywheel and couldn't disengage the starter. I couldn't rotate the motor over by hand (since I figured it didn't start at first, which was probably due to incorrect timing).
I started a thread about it, and am not getting any words of wisdom.

 

what part number are you talkign about? every one ive asked jegs or summit about wont work because of my bolt locations on my block.

i think you are confused. i mean seriously, if that starter would work dont you think i wouldve have just bought it and be driving my car already, now i sit a week later and im buying drill bits?

 

refer to earlier post i posted the part # an they said it would work me stressin the fact that the newer style would not work because the hole wasnt there im sorry bout the argueing an the other guy was right that i had not done your swap but never the less the phone call was made and they said it would work either way you will have a sweet ride did you get the motor out of sieze mode posted yesterday at 4:24 pm part # there

 

ok jegs for one doesnt give you a description of that starter, so summit sells it also and i plugged the number in there for reference
CSR Mini High Torque Starters: CSI-100SBP - summitracing.com

every application on that list says 168 tooth. It will not work, yes its staggered bolt pattern, but the deal here is Staggered bolt pattern with a 153 tooth starter. I have had no problem finding staggered pattern starters, but NOT ONE is made for a 153 tooth flywheel.

These guys werent arguing with you for the sake of post count. maybe you just overlooked the 153 tooth part in the original post.

thanks for looking though. trust me i dotn want to spend anymore, work anymore than i have to to get the job done.

 

Here's a typical "dual pattern" starter; you use one pair of holes if it's a 168-tooth, and another pair if it's a 153. This one is the CVR one (Nippondenso motor, some use that and some use the Hitachi motor, the only thing the starter company "makes" is the mounting block) but there are lots of mfrs whose aluminum mounting blocks are made this way.