TPI

Hey guys,

I had just finished up a L98 build, and its been running
strong. Lots of torque and a few uptop ponies as well.
However, power is not what Im worried about.

The car has been illegal (off the road) but I still cruise
it to break in the fresh build.. I hit the 300 mile mark and
its time to put it through AZ emissions (no visual inspection)

My main concern is, I have the diverter valve off..
and the EGR compliant headers plugged at the top.
Everything else is functional and working properly. No
vacuum leaks or anything of that nature.

Its a Single cat, 58cc 081 heads, Crane 282/.465 hyd
roller camshaft, with 24lb inj, & the stock tuning from the
car (for now) & a brand new 02 sensor.

There is also a small exhaust leak on the compression
exhaust clamp I used from the aftermarket Y-pipe to cat.
So, Its another concern of mine Id like to address if I had
the spare time.

What are my chances passing with the car as is?
Ill run some high-octane fuel and a cup or so of alcohol.
and run the car alittle hotter than normal (220-235deg)

Has anyone passed without those components?

I really dont have time/energy to install the AIR pipe
on the back of the motor, and I am not running a bunch
of rubber hose all over the place to accomodate for it.

And the diverter valve has no clearance due to my
tall-deck valve covers, the flange doesnt flush up with
the back of the smog pump.

If I can pass without that junk, Id be delighted.

Any thoughts?

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

i would expect it to fail with the mods & the stock chip, but the only way to know for sure is to run it through & see what happens. that will get you some numbers & then you can go from there.
as far as emissions, the exhaust leak may be a problem if its in front of or very close behind the O2 sensor. depending on how bad the leak is, it may fail the safety part.
i would keep the temp down around 200.

TPI

Thanks for the response.

Its better to think its going to fail, because if it does,
then your hopes weren't so high to be let down..
I wasnt sure if it would pass, but its not expensive to find
out and get some figures before thinking its a polluting hog.

The exhaust leak isnt bad at all, I can tell as the owner.
But Its easily overlooked by another ear. The cam shouldnt
effect it too harshly.. its mild, and it is MAF TPI so, it basically
runs itself.

If the numbers are sky rocket high, then I guess Id have
no choice but to install the emissions components and try
again.

At least I got a opinion, and I wont go in there expecting
the car to pass first time round. Thanks for the input DENN

alvanwie

The cam may present a problem. HC may be too high.

TPI

Nice call man..

HC's were through the roof! 5.20g's/1.60 allowed.

I passed everything else.. Nox was good, CO also
passed with flying colors. Its funny, the sheet says
I passed the AIR pump and solenoid inspection, but
I got that sucker tucked up under the plenum
disconnected, not very easy to locate.

Now my question is, even if I do get the diverter
valve and smog pump functional, will that even
bring the numbers down? Or is the cam going to
be a problem regardless?

I dont want to fuss with it too much, I can register
it out-of-county, without emissions in the way. But,
If I can get it to pass without any frustration, then
I might as well..

Again, righteous call.. I had a feeling HC's were
going to be the culprit!! What a bummer

cgtms

The overlap on the cam is the issue with the HC count too high. HC represents is un-burnt fuel present in the exhaust. This can be caused by a poor ignition system or "missfires", large overlap in a cam, or excessively lean conditions under light loads.

The only thing you can do is ensure you have a fresh ignition tune up and that you are sitting close to 14.7 AFR using a wide band O2 sensor under light loads/lower RPM.

Good luck...

TPI

Chances are Im forced to register it out of the emissions
area, because I am not pulling that cam out until the car
absolutely needs it replaced.

I bet if I had the stocker in there, I woulda passed with
my smog pump, diverter valve and EGR solenoid removed
and/or disconnected. So that pleases me.. kinda

I dont think I can get those HC numbers to drop in the
time I need this car to be legal, Im in a pickle.. I gotta
figure out how to get around it, I have no choice now.

Thanks for the input guys

alvanwie

I would expect HC to be high with the cam you are running, however your readings are way out of wack. Perhaps having your AIR system disconnected is hurting you since the extra O2 pumped into the exhaust would help the Catalyst Oxidation processes to convert some of the HC to water and CO2.

That being said, with the cam you are running I believe you will still be marginal on HC.

TPI

What would be considered a acceptable HC level with that
cam I have in the motor? HC @ 2-3g's?? Id like the motor to
run as healthy as it can, but that could be troubling.

Plumbing the air system back in around the motor
would not be to fun, and I have my engine bay like
car show clean, I would not want to install that AIR
junk on, and to do all that just to fail from HC #'s again,
Id be irritated..

Thanks for the information, saves me money & time.. this
website always has!! but.. I gotta figure out how to get her
legal and get some dyno numbers with a solid tune on the car.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

what are the rest of the numbers? post both the limit & what you did on all that are listed on the report.
you listed Gs, so i take that to mean grams per mile, right?
do you know if there is a limit on the RPM during the test?

TPI

*Grabs inspection sheet*

haha, alright here it is


My car/ Applicable Standard

Hydrocarbons: 5.20grams/mile 1.60g/mile FAIL

Carbon Monoxide: 1.82grams/mile 15.00g/mile PASS

Oxides of Nitrogen: 2.34grams/mile 2.50g/mile PASS

Evap components & Gas cap test: Satisfactory

To be honest, I was expecting alot worse !!
All signs point to that cam I happen to put in there

As for the RPM range, they didnt mention anything..
But as I sat in the car with the technician.. He didnt take
the car over 2000rpm!! I thought that was strange, but the
car did want to jump off the rollers though.. so maybe he
was just a wussy.. Im not sure.

And sorry, I shoulda stated grams per mile

alvanwie

My point of reference in saying HC would be a problem is 2 fold:
- If you compare your cam to those sold a emmisions compatible, you have much more overlap and therefore you are pushing the envelope.
- My own experience with my setup I was just barely able to pass on HC

Putting exact numbers on your combo is definitely beyond me. However, to give it your best shot I would:
- Re-connect the AIR system
- Get a good computer tune on it
- Use some iso-alcohol during the test
In addition, if your cat is original you may consider replacing it and putting a few hundred miles on it prior to re-running the test. And possibly a fresh set of spark plugs for the test.

Just some ideas,,, good luck

Al

TPI

The car itself is a great street car, has great torque and
a solid midrange to carry that momentum through.. I enjoy
it alot for what Ive invested in it..

Im hesitant on getting a prom burnt for it at the
moment, as I might have a few line-up changes on
the motor in the next 6 months to a year from now.
(AFRs, matched cam, & some LTR's etc..)

I was hoping I could get what I could from the
build right now, the crank has 296 miles on it as
of now.. I need to cruise it, but hard to do with
a expired license plate

I might have to weasel my way around this one

Also, the entire set-up is as follows:

Recently installed #081 58cc Cylinder heads

-Crane 282/282 .465/.465 hydraulic roller
-Edelbrock TPI "Big-Mouth" Intake manifold
-TPIS LTRs (yet to be installed, need polishing)
-BBK AFPR, Accel 24lbs injectors/8mm plug wires
-Crane Energizer 1.52r aluminum Roller rockers
-Hedman 1 5/8 Shorty headers/3inch Y-Pipe
-Hi-Flo cat/Flowmaster 50series muffler
-K & N Hi-Flo Cone air intake filter

TPI

I also forgot to mention, 282/282 was advertised
on the cam. I believe its 224 on the intake side, 224
on exhaust at 050 lift.. LSA @ 112.

heres the spreadsheet :

Cam Style: Hydraulic Roller
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2,200-5,200 RPM
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 224
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 224
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 224 int./224 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 282
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 282
Advertised Duration: 282 int./282 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 int./0.465 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees): 112

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

i think the cam is messing with you, but from the Carbon Monoxide(CO) readings, you look to be lean. the cam may cause the ECM to think your rich & pull fuel. too lean will cause high HC.
if you can, get a data log & look to see if the ECM is trying to add fuel.

you may want to look into burning your own chips. unless you take it in to have it tuned on a dyno, most places do little to nothing for part throttle.
one of the good things about being able to burn your own chip is you can make changes to it any time you need to. you can also get a better running motor over all by doing your own chips.
it doesn't run that much to get the basic stuff to burn, if you already have an old laptop, for about 140.00 or so you can do it your self.

TPI

Ill be definately looking into the DIY prom field, I have
a good feeling Ill want to make alot of changes over time..
The best way to do that would be prom burning, It would
give alot more flexiblity on what you can/cant do with a
street-legal car.

I know the car is on the lean side.. still makes great
power, but Ill never get it through emissions the way
its running now, unfortunately.

Thanks for the suggestion, but DIY prom tuning has
already been on my wish list for quite awhile now..
Ill do what I can to enjoy the car, until I can fully
rectify the issue.

What would be a normal amount of CO my engine
could produce? whats normal for a TPI 350 V8?
I see its allowed amount is 15.00g's/mile..

Should it be somewhere in between?

Thanks for the support

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

I'd say your cam is right on the borderline of being emissions capable. I've always heard that 280 duration or less is passable, and you're just barely over that. The 112 lobe centerline should be computer friendly too. I think you could get it to pass with that cam if you try a couple of other things. The one big red flag I see in your specs that nobody else has even mentioned is the fact that you're running 24 lb. injectors with a stock prom chip. The injector constant setting for a 350 TPI is for 22 lb. injectors. If you put the larger injectors in without changing the injector constant setting in the prom chip, the car's going to run too rich, especially at idle. If you have a set of 22 lb. injectors on hand, try putting those back in, and set your fuel pressure around 43 psi. Most people on here have said that removing their AIR pump system hardly affected the emissions at all, so I wouldn't even bother putting all that garbage back on if I were you. One thing you can do though that'll probably help clean up the exhaust would be to put the AIR pump back on without the diverter valve or exhaust manifold lines, and just pump air straight down to the cat at all times. This is an idea I've been toying with for mine. All you have to do is cut off the 2 bolt flange where the diverter valve bolts on, then run a single rubber hose from the modified air pump pipe to the hard line that runs down to the cat. I've got coated Hooker 2055's with the air lines removed going on my car, so that's what I'm going to do with the air pump on mine. About the only time the air is pumped to the exhaust manifolds is when the car is cold and still running in open loop anyways. Once the car is warmed up and in closed loop, the air is diverted down to the cat, so why not just have it running to the cat all the time? This will heat up the cat and help burn off some of those hydrocarbons, in addition to diluting the exhaust stream with fresh air. Before you even mess with all that stuff though, I'd still suggest switching back to 22 lb. injectors, and adjust your fuel pressure close to the stock setting, which is about 43 psi IIRC. Give that a shot and see if it helps. Btw, I couldn't get my stock 305 TBI w/gutted cat to pass this year, and it was kinda interesting how I got it to clean up. I just disconnected the EST (single tan/black wire by the heater motor), basically eliminating the computer from adjusting the timing, and set the base timing to 8 degrees advance, just like you would on an old school small block, and it passed no problem! It didn't drive very good with no automatic advance, so I just hooked the wire back up and reset the timing back to factory specs once I got home. I thought it was kinda ironic that I got it to pass by disabling part of the computer. Lol. I honestly think you should be able to get it to pass with that cam if you just try a few other things. The cam usually doesn't become a problem until you're around 292 adv. duration, or your lobe centerline is 110 degrees or less. Hope this gives you a few ideas to try.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

given the 15.00 GPM limit on CO, i would tend to expect to see something up around 6~12 GPM.
the cat may well be doing a good job on CO but working poorly for HC. getting air into the cat may very well help out with the HC.
there is the possibility that the larger injectors could be causing the ECM to lean it out some. a data log of whats going on would really help out.
ignition timing can have an effect on CO, HC & NOx, so make sure its right too. setting it a little slow normally will raise CO & lower HC, but normally not by much.

TPI

Well that could be my problem right there!

I should have stated this earlier, but it didnt pop
into my head at the time I was describing the situation.

The thin metal air tube that "tack welds" to the
cat then travels up behind the motor to the smog
pump/diverter valve is broken/removed.. I have no
fresh air accessing the cat besides the hole on the
side of the cat & concentrated exhaust fumes, the
hole is most likely contributing to my minor exhaust
leak.

I was trying to figure out the best way to route
something so I can get air to the cat.. like what
Pat Hall mentioned, I will most likely do, since the
AIR pump is mounted anyway.

But even if I do get some air down to the cat, will
that dilute the HC's enough? ..my CO levels were way
low, possibly indicating a way too lean condition??

Well, This could be the problem, but I still think
it is a longshot. Ill get the 22lbs injectors back in
there as well.


Thanks again guys

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

To hook up that air pipe to the cat, go to the hardware store, and get some compression fittings to go onto the remains of the tubing and the little stub on the cat (the fittings for ½" tubing work IIRC); and use a stainless steel natural-gas flex line, like for a water heater or furnace. Hose-clamp the flex tubing to the Y-pipe in a couple of places to keep it from vibrating and breaking.

Yes it will help the emissions levels. Maybe ALOT. The cat CANNOT just miracle up oxygen out of nowhere, to do its job; it's gotta get it from somewhere. Either it has to be left over in the exhaust stream (too lean of a tune), or it has to be injected. In other words, just "having a cat" isn't enough by itself, if it doesn't have the raw materials that it requires to do its job. That's what that air pipe is all about.

patgta

first of all, just because you passed in carbon monoxide and NO doesn't mean your cat is working even somewhat properly. Because the cat has (almost entirely) nothing to do Carbon Monoxide or NO, the cat is all about lowering your HCs.

I recently had a emission test nightmare myself and to make a long story short here it is .........

cat gone bad = 3 times over the HC limit
replaced it with OEM 3" cat = passed

the cat or a system supporting the cat, is your problem my friend. And yes you will need all the systems supporting the cat working and functing properly in order for the cat to do its job properly.

my episode was a nightmare basically because the car was very drivable and it was hard to pin point the problem; the car had good fuel mileage, good performance and it passed in everything except hydro carbons.

here do this,
1.get your air line going to your cat up and running then retest your emissiosn

2. if you still fail, replace your cat because your cat is probably dead by now (running high HCs over time will do this)

3. if you still fail, run your tank down to about 1/4 full and add some alcohol (i'm not going to say anything more about that, because i like to global warming down, lol)

post your results

i hope this helps

pat

the phoenix

iTrader: (1)

I know you have done a ton of work to make this thing pass emissions. I know different states have different rules, but could you just get 'classic' plates to avoid the inspection? That's what I plan to do here in Ohio...

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The problem with "classic" or "collector" plates is tha tthey usually come with too many limitations.

Mileage per year, can't drive at night, and so on.

Much smarter to just use some common sense when building a car intended to be driven on the street, in the first place; and then when things don't work out quite as planned, fix what's wrong with the car.

Especially in a situation like this, where $20 of common parts & pieces, coupled with a directed sense of goal orientation instead of a desire to somehow cheat the system, can get it taken care of.

TPI

Im going to retest it monday for sure.

Ill get some fittings to route a air line to the cat..like
sofa said, and a 1/4 tank in it with some iso-alchohol
or denatured alcohol (what is best?)

Its worth another shot, the numbers look correctable.
I hope the cat is still good,ill find out once I get some
air to it.

I also screwed up last emssions test, and put
too much gas with the alcohol, which probally
canceled out the alcohol altogether.


Thanks for all the suggestions, I will
try them all before I throw in the towel!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The alcohol is a placebo. Don't waste the effort. It doesn't contain enough oxygen, in the amount people typically use, to have any significant effect.

For every "I put the 4 ounce bottle in my full tank of gas and it passed" story, there are an equal or greater number of people that it did NOTHING for. Think about it.... if it was THAT EASY to lower a car's emissions, don't you think the enviroNazis would LONG SINCE have managed to get it REQUIRED to be put in ALL gasoline?

Try the air pipe deal; i.e. put the car back together the way it came; I'd almost BET MONEY it will fix you up.

TPI

Thanks again for the wisdom,

I cant fully put the car back to the condition it
came. The diverter valve as stated earlier will not
bolt-on unless I modified it in some way.

Everything else is operational besides that, I just
have to find a way to connect my smog pump to
the cat..If its as simple as doing that, then Im in
good shape and I should be ready to retest moday.

And you said, take the AIR pipe that broke and
fit it into place and route it to the cat with some
rubber hose and some compression fittings. Then,
obviously connect the other end of the AIR pipe
to the smog pump correct?

The only trouble I see in that logic is; connecting
that AIR pipe directly to the smog pump?.. besides
chopping a peice off the diverter valve for just the
mounting flange, is there a better way to mount it up?

Not like I use the diverter valve anyway, but I dont
want to destroy it if it's difficult/costly to replace it.

JAYDUBB

Subscribing... My emissions test is coming up soon...

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The smog pump has about a ¾" hose coming off of it, that delivers the air. You can do away with the diverter valve altogether, and just hook that up to your flex tubing, with only one of those check valves in the system. Gotta have that... without it, exhaust can back up into the rest of the system.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

You actually don't have to hack up anything on the diverter valve. What you modify is the pipe that runs between the valve and the air pump. I comes undone from the valve by removing 2 10mm headed bolts. Then you just cut off the end of the pipe that has the flange on it for the diverter valve to bolt to. You don't need compression fittings either, hose clamps will do the job just fine. You'll still retain the check valve that Sofa mentioned too, since it's on the end of the air pipe that runs down to the cat, which is where you connect the hose coming from the air pump. I'll snap some pics of the way I did mine, and post them later tonight. I haven't bolted it on yet, just mocked it up, so I'll grab the stuff and take a couple of pics. Gotta go to dinner right now, so I'll get them up later. Pat.

TPI

Welcome aboard

As for what Pat Hall just said, I didn't even know you
can unbolt the pipe on the diverter valve!! If thats the
case, then I can bolt that pipe to the back of the AIR
pump, so a hose can connect there. (riddle solved)

Thanks for pointing that out!

I still have the check valve installed from the air
pipe that broke that travels behind the engine & to
the cat.. So Ill just either mock that up or run hose
from the cat to the pipe I just removed from the
diverter valve.

Ill get this all done tomorrow, so I'm ready for
Monday. Hopefully Ill see a significant drop in HC's.

Pictures would be a big help to all of us, I'm sure

Much appreciated, thanks

TPI

Cool guys,

I got the whole AIR pump/cat routing mocked up, just
awaiting hose clamps for the heater hose I ran. It looks
awesome, I got the check valve where it was originally
positioned on the car, and ran some 5/8th heater hose
from the check valve down to the cat (will the hose melt?)

The pipe I took off the diverter valve, worked
like a charm! I hacksawed the flange and used it
to connect the rest of the hose.

Im all ready for tommarow, So if I dont see a
signifigant drop in numbers, Id be shocked..

Again, thanks everyone!!

DENN and Sofa, and Pat and PatGTA and Alvanwie
(haha, quite a line-up!!)

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Cool. Sounds like you got it taken care of, and beat me to it before I got a chance to post the pics. My computer wasn't agreeing with the transfer from the camera. Anyways, I finally got them loaded up, so here they are. The first pic is the pipe after I modified it. The second pic is of the flange that bolts to the diverter valve, and where I cut it. The third pic is where the hose hooks to the hard chrome line that runs down to the cat. In the last pic, I showed where I used a tee fitting and a larger hose to connect to the pipe I modified. The pipe I cut is larger in diameter than where it connects to the check valve on the hard chrome line, so I used one of the tee fittings and larger hoses from the original diverter valve stuff. I'm just going to use a short piece of hose with a bolt/hose clamp on the end to block off the open part of the tee fitting.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Rubber hose will catch fire..

That's the reason for using natural gas line.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Here's the third and fourth pic.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

???? I'm using the same hose that the factory used for the air pump stuff. You just have to make sure the hose is far enough away from your exhaust, especially if you're running headers, like I'm going to. The only hard, or "natural gas" lines, are the short pipe that runs from the pump to the diverter valve, and the hard chrome line w/check valve that runs down to the cat, which are still used. The only thing you're changing is eliminating the diverter valve, and the PITA lines that are plumbed into the exhaust manifolds, or headers. The factory setup uses the same rubber hose to make the connections to the diverter valve, and the connection between the diverter valve and the hard line to the cat. Btw, I was amazed at how much it cleaned up my engine compartment, and how much more room it gives you to access stuff by getting rid of the diverter valve and the exhaust manifold lines. It almost looks as clean, uncluttered, and straightforward as an old school smallblock engine now! In addition to that, it should be a pretty good argument with a smog tech that you haven't disabled your AIR system since it will still be pumping air to the cat, just like it does when the engine is warm and running in closed loop. Pretty much the only time it runs to the exhaust manifolds instead of the cat is when it's in open loop and warming up.

TPI

I think what he meant was, the metal tube that
connects to the catalyct converter. Mine was broken
so it was removed, and I have heater hose attached to
the cat now.

And fire is my fear, even though its only temporary, Ill
have the exhaust shop weld another air tube to the cat.
Then, hose it far enough away from the convection.

But it should work for emissions purposes.

The pics are awesome, I did exactly what you had done.

TPI

I cant believe it, It passed.. it passed easily!

Retest #1:

My car/Applicable standard

Hydrocarbons: 0.61grams/mile~1.60grams/mile: PASS!!

Carbon Monoxide: 3.43grams/mile~15.00grams/mile: PASS

Oxides Of nitrogen: 1.23grams/mile~2.50grams/mile: PASS

Everyone's suggestions helped a ton, I took all the
advice and accomplished a task I didnt think possible.

New spark plugs, the air pipe, 22lb injectors reinstalled,
and I used (2) 32oz bottles of pure Denatured Alcohol for
good measure, and it worked just fine.

Also, the heater hose did not melt on the cat, and
it supplied air just fine. I will remove it when I get
a replacement for it.

What a big difference having air flowing to the
cat can make, it diluted 5grams of HC's just by
hooking up a tube.. amazing!

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Sweet! Glad to hear it was a success! Going by your results, I'm definitely going to finish up the air pump mod on mine and get air going down to the cat again. The only thing I wonder is if it was more the air tube, or switching back to the 22 lb. injectors. Injecting air into the cat provides the necessary oxygen to help burn off any fuel left in the exhaust stream, but smaller injectors dump less fuel into the system to begin with, so it's probably a toss up as to which helped the most. Either way, that's awesome that it worked out for you! I had a feeling that cam would pass pretty easily as long as everything else was in spec. I get to find out if mine will pass next year with the ZZ4 cam. I don't think it's going to be a problem, and seeing your results boosts my confidence even more. I'm going to running mine with an 89 MAF TPI w/stock PROM too. Congrats dude!

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

cool

i think it was a combination.
the motor shows to be running richer with the smaller injectors, before 1.82 gpm CO, now 3.43 gpm CO. NOx, before 2.34 gpm, now 1.23 gpm. both HC & NOx go up when your too lean.
also if your too lean the cat won't work as good as it can.
the extra air to the cat alone may have been enough to have cleaned up the HC.

how is it running now?

TPI

Yea, Im am very pleased and relieved.

Im thinking the AIR pipe probally did alot of it.
I noticed when I hooked the hose up to the cat
to the Smog pump,the car had more backpressure,
and it idled and accelerated much smoother.

So you should be in good shape Pat. The car should
pass with your AIR pipe-mod, EGR solenoid functional,
22lb injectors, I also put brand new Delco plugs 10mins
before I took off to emissions.

My car runs awesome, I dont think Ill put the
24lb injectors back in till I can tune the car for
the extra fuel.

I didnt notice any difference in overall performance
going back to the 22lb's. Except passing emissons.

I am just very relieved the cam is passable as long
as the components are hooked up and working the
way they should.. I wont have a problem passing
emissons in the distant future.

The advice has been outstanding, all of you guys
contributed alot too my success. Who knows how
long I woulda been scratching my head If I didnt ask
for help.. Thanks a ton

The numbers look alot healthier, the engine runs
alot healthier.. and now its 1/2 way legal.. Ill register
the car this week and Ill be on the road ....again