Because forged costs WAY more, and you don't need it.

If the #7 is worn down close to .010, they'll grind the whole thing to .020 under. The rods don't get sized to the crank journal, they get resized back to the factory size and thicker undersize bearings are used to match the crank.

 

so there will be enough to be ground to make work, right?

and why you say I dont need forged? Im sure I dont but tis always good to have

 

Unless you're making enough power that you're in danger of breaking a cast crank (which is beyond the capabilities of most engines i'd consider streetable), then using a forged crank means spending a lot of extra money for absolutely no benefit over a cast one.

 

hmm? yes you do make sense and I have heard or read that on here before. I will whenever this motor is running...LOL..hopefully in my lifetime! be using the happy gas on it but that in due time.

Im assuming you dont know the answer to the crank turning question about enough or not.

 

Which question was that? They make undersize bearings all the way down to .060 under, so you'd have to have done some pretty serious damage to the crank for it not to be usable.

 

whew!..so im good! that makes me feel better I just dont want the place to say it cant be turned cause theres not enough....thanks!

also someone told me to replace the piston rings? why? would they or coud they have been damaged? when I asked the lady about honing she told me that would not be nessasary unless there was damage to the walls which there isnt.

 

Did she say hone? or did she say bore? The cylinder walls won't be damaged, but it's a whole lot better to just clean up the cylinder walls with the hone and rering it than it is to try to get the used rings to reseat. New rings are cheap.

 

yeah she said HONE. will old rings not seat in the cylinders they came out of?? I know that the rings will not be in the same positon cause I need to make sure that the ring gaps are offset.... so now I should by new rings? how much are they?

 

Plain cast iron rings are around $15 a set, but moly faced rings are better, around $35 or so.

 

If you have the cylinders honed then throw the rings away and put new ones in.

Beyond .010 some of the 'higher end' bearings arent available but most people dont need any of that nonsense anyway. So you put a .010 feeler between the eaten up worn out bearing and the crank? Thats mostly bearing gap. That crank doesnt look very bad, honestly. I've seen a LOT worse and only cut it .020 and thats because one journal was at .012. The best way is mic it and see what its really at... but since its going to the shop, they'll tell you and you can go from there. They should be able to tell you before any work is done exactly what the parts need to have done.

 

well I talked to KB and they told me that if I got speedpro, they gave me the part number SPW R9902.030 and they are like $100
that was just for speedpro but there are others but I dont know the part number for them, they may be cheaper

 

if I dont have it honed then can I use the old rings?

and no I didnt use the feeler like you said.
You know me, I just post pictures!.....LOL..hold on

this is the 7,8 journal..the right is worn the left is not.


here is the feeler to make them both the same across

 

That doesn't tell you anything useful.
----------
R9902 are plasma moly faced, you don't need anything like that. Sealed Power E-251K030 are $37.95 from Summit.

 

looks like that north carolina humidity is getting the best of your crank! jacksonville isn't any better.

I've been reading this thread since day one, you've got a sweet car and i've learned a good bit reading this thread. best of luck!

 

You can reuse the old rings if they go back on the same pistons in the same cylinders. For the cost... sometimes its not worth the headache it can cause.

Wait till the shop calls back on that crank. They will tell you what it needs.

 

I just got back from "Buck's Racing Engine's" here where I live and I took my crank and rods there to ask about service...LOL... I coldnt get the block in the car it was to freakin heavy!..LOL

He looked at the crank and rods just visually and told me the the block would have to be line honed? and the cylinders honed also and that was just from seeing the journals, He told me there should be no markings like what I have on any of the journals..and all the rods would have to be reconditioned because he could tell by looking at them (not holding them) that they got hot...he was like," there must have been no oil and the engine must have gotten extremly hot" and that the clearances must have been wrong and the engine must have been put together dirty.
He told me that with cylinder honing I would also need new rings. He couldnt give me an exact price until he checked everything and I would have to bring him my crank, rods/pistons, block, oil pump/pickup and pan and he would check it all and that would cost me $50-$70 but ballpark he said probably around $700-$800 and I would have my short block back ready to go.
SO bacially the shortblock has to be completely gone thru.

boy o boy this is getting more and more fun as the days go by and my pockets are getting empty.

 

He's telling you exactly what the sane ones here have been telling you all along.

 

I just jumped bac into this post. I'm sorry to see that my first hunch was right, a spun bearing. Makes a distinct sound. the machine shop is right. The only way they are going to give you a guarrentee is to do the bottom end "right" from the start. Just do it and know that it is done right. Unfortunatly good work is not cheap. Good luck. John

 

yeah I know!...I also went and talked to a friend of mine who is the machanic that in another thread I had when my flexplate bolts was bad said that I had a spun rod bearing cause he could feel it...well in that thread it turned out to be the bolts but he said he remembers feeling the side of the block.... so maybe way back then he knew what was going on and maybe then when I had the motor out I should have checked but I assumed everything was OK...but I guess not.
Anyways he told me that Buck's Racing Engines has an extremly good rep and yes they are high but they are well worth it...I mean the guy diagnosed it just by looking at the rods and crank, didnt touch it or nothing he could just tell from looking at it. I was also told that BUCK's actually helps out Richard Childress Racing from time to time and that they have been around for alot of years and they are the ONLY racing engine shop between here and there. Ive known about them but thought they were a private business and not for the public cause I never saw alot of cars there but for some reason I went by there today just cause of the name of the place.

SO I guess if $700-$800 bucks gets me a short block ready to go, clearanced and everything to where I will have nothing to worrry about...then I think its best for me to go that route and not have to worry about my bottom end.

 

Just read this entire thread---good luck man. At this point, I think the $700-$800 spent on getting the shop to inspect and assemble everything will be worth the piece of mind--knowing that it was done right.

I'm building a 383 HSR at the moment as well--my first build. Learning a lot. I've had many trips to the machine shop hauling the same parts back and forth for the last 8 months or so. In the process, I bought a stroker kit with flat top pistons to use with iron heads and only after having them assembled to the rods and the everything balanced did I realize how much compression this would be. Ordered new pistons and had to have it rebalanced and the pistons put on the rods. I've chipped a piston and replaced it with one of the exact weight, snapped a rod bolt with an improperly gauged torque wrench, and replaced brand new rod bearings with other new rod bearings (had put them in and taken them out so many times that the chamfered edges had begun to flatten back out). Trust me man--its a headache and a half, but after you've learned so much, its all worth it in the end.

 

 

I have to say, after listening to the video I would have said valvetrain and not bottom end. The one thing that I think that gave it away was when you took the rockers off #7 and it didn't make the noise. That cylinder was just along for the ride with no pressure on it.

It sounds like this is your first time through an engine. I have built several that didn't last long. Experience is one of those things that can't be replaced by anything else.

When I built my 406, I put the 2nd ring upside down. I spent 6 months trying to figure it out, finally an old guy at the machine shop told me I screwed up. I won't do that again.

My .02, have the whole engine gone through. Tank the block, new cam bearings, have the crank checked, resize the rods. You don't want to do this again right?

I am half asleep and about 5 beers into this thread...did you ever find out what happened in the first place to cause this?

Man, I've been there...trust me...I had an oldsmobile 350, I put 403 heads on it cause it had bigger valves. I used the wrong head gaskets, so when I started it, it sucked water straight into the cylinder, then washed the engine out....That was a really bad day...

Best of luck to you sir.

 

Sorry, I haven't piped up sooner, but I've been busy with other personal matters and finally got out of the hospital (and recovering from surgery).

Like so many others, I too listened and excluding the fact that we are not there to actually hear it, the one reason it may not have sounded like the classic "bottom end" problem; Wishmaster caught it in the very early stages.

Had Wishmaster just ignored the problem and continued to drive around, it probably would have sounded more like the "classic bottom end" noise that many of us have heard in our lifetime.

Unfortunately, it seems to demonstrate that there seems to be little advantage to "catching it early". It seems Wishmaster is having to do all the same things you typically end up doing after damaging your bottom end.

I guess the unknown question is: Why did it happen in the first place?

 

Inadequate oil clearance in the crank bearings. It's written all over the other bearings. Remember he bought the engine as a shortblock.
Hee hee, I just realized the irony of your handle and Wishmaster's woes:
Grim Reaper pays Wishmaster a visit.
Sometimes you just have to laugh to keep from crying...

 

Absolutely.

Excluding some clogged oil passage, it then leans towards a poor build of the shortblock (unless I have overlooked or misunderstood something while reading this sad story).

 

I don't think it was a clogged oil passage because the other bearings that weren't affected by the clog would have been mint. If the whole crank was starved of oil it would have only lasted 1 hour and 12 minutes tops (1.2hrs). Don't ask how I know that. Lets just say that in my job I get to clean up other folk's messes ...

 

I got a call from the place who has my engine. They told me that the crank can not be fix. He said on the #7/#8 its more than .045 gone or some crap like that. He told me that he has already aligned bored and honed it...which I dont think it needed!...he just did that to make an extra buck.
SO I guess I need a new crank.....This thing is a damn nightmare!

I should have just junked all the internals and bought new for about $1000 and just cleaned the block and dropped it all in.
not ****in align bore and hone and **** like that!

Im pissed!

 

I doubt that if the guy is reputable at all that he align bored it without need. I have gotten the impression from shops around here that it isn't a process they even like to do - so I would guess the machinist's decision was based on the condition of your bearing saddles / caps, and measurements done with a bore gage etc. Also, a new crankshaft just isn't that much more expensive than having one reground.

 

Sounds like the crank was already ground before. Anything like .030 on the back of the bearing shells?

 

where can I get an internally balanced crank for a 2 piece rear main?

 

Where can't you get an internally balanced crank for a 2 piece rear main?

 

That's a very common crank alright. Check prices at Ohio Crankshaft. Or the machine shop you're dealing with might sell you one for a reasonable price.
Or summit, or.... etc

 

I should be getting my short block back next week...total price came out to $1450.00..my balance is $250 when I walked in today they were balancing the crank/rods on the balancer machine. This place is a full blown race motor shop, they were dynoing a 800cc motor but would not let me watch, guess they didnt want me to see the numbers or somthing.

They had to put a new crank in there...he just put a cast eagle crank..I think it was like $200 or something...I hope it can handle the power I throw at the motor...Will a stock crank handle somewhere in the nieghborhood or 500 to the wheel?

That price included from oil pan to to cam installed, flexplate to damper

All new bearing and rings
everything Internally balanced
degreeing the cam
painting the block
align bore and hone
cylinder hone


So I will be getting the block back and just have to put the heads on...
He told me to run 20/50 oil in it and wait til about 3000 to put synthetic in it..and I asked about break-in...he told me that everything you hear about break-in is BS....just the rings need to be seated....get this, he says to put about a good 20miles on the motor and then LET IT EAT!! says that if the bottom end is built right nothing should happen to it...was showing me how they build motors and instantly throw them on the engine dyno and take them all the up!!

I guess I'll find out soon!

 

good to hear... i want to see a video of this beast running without any horrible sounding noises

 

Maybe 800 ci?

 

what are the top fuel bikes running? thought it was around 750-800cc

 

LOL.....I guess its 800 Cubic Inches!,.....LOL..he showed me Billit Aluminum CNC block that was 10 grand the whole freakin block was CNC out of a block of Aluminum...all his engines are in the range or 18 to 80 grand..I was like DAMN!!

Hey I need to know something?
Should I have them put the cam in and degree it according to the cam card? or should I have them put it in the way I had it? I had it retarded 1* to kind of move the power band up in the RPM's
He said I should put the cam in the way it was designed to be put in. somthing about centerlines..or some BS

 

1* retard is not going to do much - your choice of fuel & tune will have a bigger effect.

Have them install it and degree it as per the card specs.

 

WHat does your oil psi gauge look like? My car goes up to 65psi when started cold. close to 80psi when i start it monthly over the winter. Then down around 20ish psi at idle in gear, and 40psi when cruising around.

However, my bro has an oil gauge that i really hate. Its an expensive autometer one, but the range is 20-140 or something. The lowest notch is 20psi. SO at idle, if it dips to 19psi, the gauge will read it as ZERO. Theres no notches below 20psi, but the needle sits all the way down.

Is this your problem? If so, id just buy a cheapy $12 gauge from any auto parts store, make sure it starts at zero. Hopefully this is your problem.


10psi is pretty low, but its not bad. It should still do its job.



EDIT: Sorry i JUST read the rest of your thread. REAL LONG. IT definately wasnt your psi gauge, u were right in your assumptions of low oil pressure. Did you ever figure out why the oil stopped? Looks like it was only in a few places, and where it happened, it happened bad. Just following on ur progress now. Keep it up!

 

That sounds like my oil pressure.