Good Afternoon Everyone. I was just referred to this site. I have been trying 3 other Camaro Forums but with no luck. Ive been getting some great data from my GTO forum, but we're starting to hit a wall. Im going to try to paste the info gathered so far into this thread. I have tried to take out names and signatures and divide individual quotes with a line. Its long, but its much easier to do than to retype and I wont forget things. I'll take any information that someone might have. Todays activity is to change plugs, use noid lights to check injector harness and figure out how to use this vacuum tester I bought to do some random vacuum testing. Im also checking the pink wire that you will read about further down. Thanks in advance for any opinions and ideas. Still important to me is that the car was only parked because of the rough running. It started perfect. I changed the EGR and coil and now its not a non start, but pretty darn tough start unless ice cold. Thanks again.

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Good Evening everyone. Hope everyone is getting their driving in before cold weather hits. Ive been too busy at work to get my 04 out much at all. The reason Im here though is to ask for help on my other ride. A 89 Camaro Iroc 5.7. Im going to cut and paste the history from another site and then update with todays data. Sorry for being so long, but Im at wits end and well over my head. Im down to thinking that Ive got some sensor off somewhere or maybe even an ECM. The only other option is the phantom vacuum wire off of the EGR solenoid that is missing....maybe! You'll read about that below. Here is how it all started.

Story History

1) Bought the car 3 years ago with the factory motor rebuilt by professionals. First day it arrived, the wife drove it home from the trucking company. She shut it off in the drive. I said, hey, I want to drive it. She immediately tried to restart it and it only turned over (just like now) but no fire. A few minutes sitting and it started right up. Any time that you shut it off and immediately try to start it back, nothing. A few seconds of sitting and its back.

2) A couple of times when I have been on the road (over a couple of hours) I have stopped for gas and it wouldnt restart (just turned again). These couple of instances it took from 1-2 hours before she started back up. When it did though, it was like brand new. No sign of anything again. This has been far and few between.

3) This past year started stalling on the wife when stopping. She does quickly let off gas and jumps on brake. Not big fluctuations in tach, just stall. Have to let it sit for a minute and it starts right up. The last time it happened to her (just a few weeks ago) it took 15 minutes to restart.

4) Day after 3) I was out in it. Ran great. Stopped at a friends, came out and it wouldnt run right. Was surging whenever I tried to take off. Not as in a power up, but almost like you popped the clutch on a stick shift with no gas. That herky jerky feel. Mine is an auto by the way. I drove it home, let it sit, went out an hour or two later and it was back to new.

5) This week it started the jerking again. Never fixed itself this time. I found the egr to be bad and thought that the book showed it fitting all my symptoms. Put a new egr and the sensor on the back bottom side of the plenum on. Put it back together and now it wont start at all.

Good Evening everyone. Ok, I finally got the guts up to tear the tune port off the car and low and behold....I was right. Bad EGR valve. I finally get it all put back together tonight and am just confident that its going to run better than ever. Turn the key and nothing! I cant actually check for spark, but what I think is that Im missing a vacuum line. On the front of the egr solenoid, there is a plug with two plastic wires that go to the egr and the front of the plenum. On the back side of the solenoid is an electrical connection and a place for another hose. I cant find that hose. I have been all over it and its like one never existed! Can someone please help me find what Im looking for or tell me where it originates so that maybe I can track it?

Today

Everyone keeps suggesting fuel pump. I didnt think some of the symptoms sounded right compared to what I was reading, but I was running out of ideas. I bought a fuel pressure tester tonight and hooked it up. 43 lbs with the engine off, key on. 39 lbs with the car idling. Car off for 30 minutes and still at 42 lbs. I dont think its that now. One thing to point out. Tonight when it was ice cold, I only got it to start off of eather. It ran like new when it first started. As it warmed the miss came back worse and worse until it barely ran. When you cracked the throttle, it died for a second and then revved (with the miss). Im throwing no codes.

Questions in the end

1) Does anyone have data on the solenoid vacuum
2) Anyone have suggestions of where to look now

Ive spent a couple hundred in parts in the last couple of days. Fortunately its all good maintenance stuff, but Id sort of like to be a little more confident before I start throwing out big money in sensors and such.
Thanks in advance for any help. Bob
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Online Good luck Bro... I had an 85 TA with a rebuilt TPI motor in it and it never ran right after putting in the new motor... strange issues like the ones you mention... I still miss it though as I do all my past cars.... lol

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Offline Okay, first the third port on the EGR solenoid is a vent for vacumn to release from the valve. There is no line connected to it. There may have been at one time in it's early life a piece of filter foam covering it to keep dirt/dust out.

As for the no start when warm. The first place I would look is at the distributor, considering no codes are being set. Your symptoms are exactly what use to happen to these cars when the module in the dist goes out. They usually start and run fine cold, may stall or hesitate once things heat up, then a no-start till it cools down. I do have a tester for checking out these older modules. Finding someone else in your area may be difficult considering the age of the car. Don't rule out the pick up coil in the dist either. Actually if it were mine, I would completely overhaul the whole distributor and be done with it.

Hope this helps.
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Offline I would have to research that particular engine but can you find the map sensor. It might be the missing sensor as it connects to the vacuum system and to the manifold.

I'm surprised it is not throwing a MIL lamp; maybe someone took out the bulb to sell it. Does the SES light come on during the ignition self check?

I would read the codes anyway as you may have some in there that don't make the light come on but they are in memory and might lead you in the right direction.

You might want to tap lightly on the MAF sensor while running and see if you can get the engine to stumble. Get yourself a multimeter and a service manual.
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Okay, first the third port on the EGR solenoid is a vent for vacumn to release from the valve. There is no line connected to it. There may have been at one time in it's early life a piece of filter foam covering it to keep dirt/dust out.

As for the no start when warm. The first place I would look is at the distributor, considering no codes are being set. Your symptoms are exactly what use to happen to these cars when the module in the dist goes out. They usually start and run fine cold, may stall or hesitate once things heat up, then a no-start till it cools down. I do have a tester for checking out these older modules. Finding someone else in your area may be difficult considering the age of the car. Don't rule out the pick up coil in the dist either. Actually if it were mine, I would completely overhaul the whole distributor and be done with it.

Hope this helps.



I'll bet that's it Ignition control module.


Edit: Until I saw this---

Tonight when it was ice cold, I only got it to start off of eather. It ran like new when it first started. As it warmed the miss came back worse and worse until it barely ran. When you cracked the throttle, it died for a second and then revved (with the miss). Im throwing no codes.

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I'll bet that's it Ignition control module.


Edit: Until I saw this---

Tonight when it was ice cold, I only got it to start off of eather. It ran like new when it first started. As it warmed the miss came back worse and worse until it barely ran. When you cracked the throttle, it died for a second and then revved (with the miss). Im throwing no codes.



I saw that too, he does post that he checked fuel pressure. The readings he posted are within limits for that car. The only other thing he could do is drive the car with a fuel gauge hooked up to the pressure tap until car dies or starts running poorly again, then see what the gauge says. It is possible the fuel pump is bad, but takes a while to show itself.


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Maybe he could have someone cycle the ignition so he could listen to the pump at the tank; sometimes they sound like they are crushing stones on the way out.


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Online Guys, I greatly appreciate the help. Ive tried three of the big camaro sites and no help anywhere.

Gonna Try - Thanks for the vacuum information. That settles that answer in my mind. You mention the "module" in the distributor. Ive been reading the manual all night and just ran across this. I didnt know if it was for all cars since they talk mpfi, tbi and carb. Is this something that I would find in my Tune Port and is it different than the pick up. I took the pick up down today and they tested it half a dozen times until it was good and hot and everything showed fine. I didnt know that there was anything else down in there.

Sun, The map is hooked up. I havent replaced it, but it is there. As for the lights, the car has never thrown one. I wondered about the lamp too. It is good. I did the test today for codes and it only showed the 1/2 code that shows its working. Nothing else.

Both, I did check the fuel and it was in standards. I also let it run until it was missing to the point that it wouldnt hardly drive down the road. Pressure was still at 40. I shut it off and the pressure stayed for the 15 minutes I left it hooked up.

Sun, Pump sounds strong. We did release the pressure on the tester and checked it 3 times. Jumps to 43 instantly. While running, even when running bad, when you crack the throttle the pressure jumps up like the manual says too.


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Online You mention pump relay. That is something that I havent ran into yet. Im assuming though since the pump is coming on, it wouldnt be that?


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Guys, I greatly appreciate the help. Ive tried three of the big camaro sites and no help anywhere.

Gonna Try - Thanks for the vacuum information. That settles that answer in my mind. You mention the "module" in the distributor. Ive been reading the manual all night and just ran across this. I didnt know if it was for all cars since they talk mpfi, tbi and carb. Is this something that I would find in my Tune Port and is it different than the pick up. I took the pick up down today and they tested it half a dozen times until it was good and hot and everything showed fine. I didnt know that there was anything else down in there.

Sun, The map is hooked up. I havent replaced it, but it is there. As for the lights, the car has never thrown one. I wondered about the lamp too. It is good. I did the test today for codes and it only showed the 1/2 code that shows its working. Nothing else.

Both, I did check the fuel and it was in standards. I also let it run until it was missing to the point that it wouldnt hardly drive down the road. Pressure was still at 40. I shut it off and the pressure stayed for the 15 minutes I left it hooked up.

Sun, Pump sounds strong. We did release the pressure on the tester and checked it 3 times. Jumps to 43 instantly. While running, even when running bad, when you crack the throttle the pressure jumps up like the manual says too.

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The module is the rectangular piece (black) that all the wires plug into on the dist. The pick up coil sits around the dist shaft, and will have just two wires coming off of it going to the module. The dist shaft itself has a reluctor on it (8 pointed star) that signals the pick up coil, they can loose their magnatism, or even loosen up on the shaft itself over time.

Something else that comes to mind, is the catalytic convertor. You should probably check back pressure (before convertor) to make sure it isn't restricting flow. If they are plugged up, or even breaking apart, it will make car stall/quit when hot also. Do you hear any rattling under car when it's running?


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Online And to state a little clearer. The car had a new engine and ALWAYS started on the very first turn over of the engine. Even if it sat for 2 weeks, the engine always fired and ran immediately. The only exceptions to this was if you shut the key off and immediately tried to restart it. Or on those couple of add 4 hour trips. For the first one, you just had to wait 2 minutes and then it would start right up. The latter, I had to wait 1-2 hours and it started when it damn well pleased. However, after it restarted, it would never show another bad sign. The last year and half I have had no problems at all other than there has always been a slight miss and I dont think it had quite the power of the original 5.7. Lately I noticed my fuel consumption had gone to hell, but nothing else. Then one day it started the "pulsing". Then it went away too. A week later it came back, but was gone the next day. Now it came back and wont leave, but it still started perfect. The no start didnt happen until I changed the EGR. The old EGR was not holding a vacuum. Now the car barely fires on the first turn, but "usually" dont start. Then there is no reason to try further. Occasionally if I havent been messing with it for several hours, it may start. Eather seems to start it no matter what, but not necessarily easy. One other point that I forgot to mention. We were looking at a plug yesterday to see if I had fire. I did, but dad mentioned that it was aweful yellow and that it should be blue. I didnt know that or even know to believe it, but the manual says the same thing.

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Online Im going to have to check that module tomorrow. The pick up is inside the distributor. I took it apart today. I didnt see anything else. The 8 point star though, I did think I seen. Its the round piece you see in the center of the distributor when you remove the cap. It is very rusty. Dont know if that means anything.

I cant say that I have ever heard a rattle under the car. I seen that in several other posts when I was researching so I did check. As for the back pressure. How can that be checked? I cant say the exhaust feels or sounds weak, but I dont know if that means anything either.


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Offline Can you start it when ever you want with starting fluid?


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Offline Yea, it should be blue like dad said. I'd overhaul the ignition system like I mentioned earlier, including the coil. It really won't be money wasted, if you plan on keeping the car for a while.


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Online Start on starting fluid, yes.

Still reading the manual. What about this electronic spark control module? By the way, coil is new. We wondered since it was put in with the EGR if that was the problem. We took it back down to check it as a possible factory failure. It read the same as another new one off the shelf. I am however wondering about their testing procedure because it is not the same as the one in the manual I have.


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Im going to have to check that module tomorrow. The pick up is inside the distributor. I took it apart today. I didnt see anything else. The 8 point star though, I did think I seen. Its the round piece you see in the center of the distributor when you remove the cap. It is very rusty. Dont know if that means anything.

I cant say that I have ever heard a rattle under the car. I seen that in several other posts when I was researching so I did check. As for the back pressure. How can that be checked? I cant say the exhaust feels or sounds weak, but I dont know if that means anything either.



There's a gauge that goes in place of the O2 sensor to check back-pressure. Some independent shops have a cheaper way of doing this, by puncturing the exhaust pipe, their gauge then screws into punture hole to take reading, then they weld spot back up, (or God forbid) put a sheet metal screw in the hole.

The reluctor star can be rusty, but must have a decent amount of magnatism left in it, in order to function properly.


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Start on starting fluid, yes.

Still reading the manual. What about this electronic spark control module? By the way, coil is new. We wondered since it was put in with the EGR if that was the problem. We took it back down to check it as a possible factory failure. It read the same as another new one off the shelf. I am however wondering about their testing procedure because it is not the same as the one in the manual I have.



The ESC module is what I was referring to that needs a special tester to check out. There is no way to test it otherwise. The ECM can be ruled out, cause it doesn't take over spark control until engine is running and past 400 rpm if memory serves me right. Module is in full control during cranking operation.


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Online The cool thing is that Im going to have a ton of cool new toys to hang on the tool room peg board. Bad thing is that the kids wont be able to eat for 3 weeks! By the way, I may have been wrong about what I replaced today. I replaced the black unit that comes out of the distributor. It has two prongs (like a 3 wire and 4 wire) that attach to wire harnesses on the outside and one, two prong wire that attaches under that 8 point star on the inside. I think the picture that I was looking at is just a different set up.

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Offline Just to rule out the MAP unplug it and see what happens. The last car I fixed with a bad map would not start until I unplugged the MAP and then it ran for 30 seconds or so. I jumped the hot wire on the three wire connector to the middle prong and the car came alive.

If you want to rule the map out unplug it and get your meter on the end prongs and you should see around 5vts. Jump the positive side to the middle and see if it does anything.

The computer needs to see voltage coming from the middle line to the ECM but it is hard to test with it plugged in. I have fed a wire in there and pushed it closed but it was easier just to send the 5 vt signal out from the two prongs next to each other.

I can't guarantee the order of the incoming wires but everyone I have seen is the 5vt + and - is on the ends and the return is the middle line. Just check them with a meter or even unplug it to see if it kicks a little without it.


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We were looking at a plug yesterday to see if I had fire. I did, but dad mentioned that it was aweful yellow and that it should be blue. I didnt know that or even know to believe it, but the manual says the same thing.



Your dad's right, you need a good hot blue spark.
Check the power feed to your distributor, the big pink wire going to the cap, make sure it's clean and you have at least 12.6v to the dist.
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Online Thanks 87, I'll check that. Especially if you tell me how! I bought a real nice multi meter today. Problem is we really dont know how to use it yet. And unfortunately, the book is showing a coil out of a 60's car. We were trying to check rpm just as a learning and it said hook it to the negative side of the coil and showed that old pic. Anyway, heres todays saga. We put a new fuel filter on it. Very nice and shiney, no change. New air filters, very white, no help. Checked the coil with the new meter and the book said test 1, zero ohms and ours was. Test two, very high ohms and ours was 8800. Book said coil should be 6k-30k. We're on the low side, but I dont know if that means anything. Stood around and stared at it till I said what the hell, lets yank the distributor and check the pick up. (First time and Im very proud of the size of my ***** today ) The pick up fell out in pieces. I have no idea how it has been running this long. We now fixed the definite bad egr and now a real electrical/spark issue. We put it all back together and it fires perfect and runs smooth. We shut it off, wait a few, turn the key and it just spins. I bought a spark plug tester today and we have spark. It appears better than it was this morning (bluer) Dont know if its enough. It seems like we should have fixed the bad fuel consumption with the egr. The rough idle with the pick up. We still cant get it to start unless its ice cold. That didnt start until I changed the coil and egr. Lookin for any new thoughts. Thanks guys and gals


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Offline Okay, you know you have spark now when this is occuring, fuel pressure is good. You can spray it with ether and it will start. I am now questioning the ECM, particularly the injector control circuit. Your next step would be to determine if the ECM is firing the injectors when this occurs.

One side of the injector connectors is going to be hot when the key is on, the ECM pulses the other side to ground to complete the circuit. You can check this with either a noid light that plugs directly into the injector connector, or rig up a regular test light across the terminals. Your multimeter is of no help in this test, as you want to physically see that it has enough power (amperage) to illuminate a light. That will mean it then has enough power to fire the injector.

I'm pulling all of my info from memory and my years dealing with these systems. I have access to SI 2000, but it does not give diagnostic info or schematics that far back, just bulletins.

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Online Gonna Try, I figured out how to test the injector wiring with the car off. It was suppose to be 1-2 ohms. All were from 1.4-1.7 except the number 8 cylinder. It was 2.5. Again, very irritating because every time I learn one thing, it brings up 5 other questions. I dont know if that could cause anything. I found information on the noid lights that youre speaking of and I think Im going to buy those tomorrow. Anyway, we got another meter and checked the battery and alternator. It seems to be good. Someone mentioned 12.6v minimum on the pink wire at the distributor. We checked it and it was like 12.4. When we turned the key, it was dropping down to right at 10v. A neighbor said that this was way to low and shouldnt happen. He suggested jumping a wire straight from the battery to the pink wire and see if that fixed it. Im a little leary of his knowledge and didnt want to go cutting into the wiring without a second opinion. The plugs are extremely old and Im going to put new ones in tomorrow, verify time after pulling the distributor and check the injector firing as you suggest. I'll be back to see if anyone replies. Thanks again everyone. By the way. The car is definitely starting a little better. Starts a little more often even when warm. However, if it doesnt fire and start immediately, its done. If you have to let it turn over or try a second time. No luck. Then you do have to wait for it to cool. The neighbor mentioned a white box on the steering column under the dash. He said they sometimes need adjusted. Box has a rod connected to the key that moves when you turn the key. I looked at that and mine doesnt move ever. Someone might have bypassed it which leaves a whole new set of possibilities since someone may have been "redoing" things the cheaper way.


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Offline The "white box" on the column with the rod going to it is your ignition switch (make sure you're not looking at the round switch with three wires going to it, that's your headlight dimmer). You also mention that your voltage drops down to 10 volts at the distributor (coil). This shouldn't be happening, HEI distributors need full voltage to work properly. This brings me back to the ignition switch. There are two wire connectors on it, with 12-14 gauge wire in them. Each connector should have a "red" battery feed wire in it, make sure each of them holds battery voltage without dropping off. One of the connectors will have a "pink" wire, this pink wire is the switched ignition wire, and is what feeds the distributor as well as other items. First, I would make sure that none of the terminals inside of these connectors are melted or burnt. If they are, then you found some more of your problem. If they look fine, and are making good contact, check the voltage coming out of the switch on the "pink" wire, and see if it drops down to 10 volts there as well. If it does, then the contacts inside the switch are burnt, and a new switch is in order. These connectors are real fun to get to, considering where the damn switch is located on top of the column like that. You could take the two 15mm head bolts out that hold the column in place and pull it down some, column won't fall out, you'll have to pull down on it.

You could make up a small jumper as your neighbor suggested, and connect it between the power wire and battery. He's really not that far off in his suggestions. See if it does start every time then. Not gonna hurt, just to see.

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Had the same problem, almost identical, replaced the ecm. That fixed it.

If not, seeing the motor was worked on. Check for unconnected grounds , bad placement of the ground, bad ground connector ( one strand left or crimped on the plasic coating), check engine to chassis ground.

Check the multi pin connectors. When reconnecting them, one or more of the pins male or female may have backed out slightly from it's holder. This has happened several times to me, very hard to find, look at the back side of the plugs, if one is pushed back i might be easier to see, comparing it to he others.

Take your time. A lot of wires under the hood, but only a few will give you a no start condition.

Good hunting.
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Online Thanks for the input Tim and as always Gonna Try. Im going to pick up a set of plugs and a noid kit to check the spark to the injectors today. That should narrow out the last remaining easy potential problems. As for the switch, Im definitely on the correct one. Good thing, I cant afford to lose my headlights too! Next Im going to follow your directions and check out that wiring and switch under the dash. I would rather do it the right way and not be making more jumpers. Then I'll check all of those pins and connectors. The ecm has been brought up a few times and Im not sure how you check that without just replacing it. When you say ecm do you mean the whole box or just the chip?

Heres the thing that keeps baffling me. Besides the couple of times the car would not restart for an hour after long road trips and the wont restart immediately after turning off, but will 60 seconds later, the car has always run great. Ok, it has had a small miss. But besides that, started and ran great. The only reason it was not being run this time was the mileage fell off and I got the bad "pulsing". The egr valve should have fixed the fuel consumption. At the time I fixed it, I put the coil on as maintenance. Thats when the no start happened. I cant get my head out of that long enough to think further. After seeing the pick up and how bad it was, Im baffled that all isnt well now. Any thoughts on why the start issue would have come on or stories of your own so that I can just say, hey it happened and move on. Im considering making or buying the jumper wire that goes from the coil to the distributor. Mine looks like it has been twisted up pretty good and you can see where someone poked a tester in it a few times (open whole in the white wire). Im wondering if me pulling it off and on to replace the coil was the final straw for a bad wire? Oh well, thanks again guys and I'll update you later. Bob

 

wow alot of info about the problem not so much about the car... is it still TPI? what kind of engine work was done? before you got it... how proffesional does it look...

first when you turn the key to the ON position before attempting to start... you get 2 lights in the top right of the gauge cluster... i think they were calling it security and Service engine soon... do you get both of them? does either one stay on ever? next look at your key... does it have a little piece of rubber surronding a small bit of metal?

if your SES light comes on when the key is first turned to the ON position the light is good... sorta self explanitory

next i would tell you to go UNPLUG your coolant temp sensor... it should be located in the passanger side head between 6&8 spark plugs start the car... ONE are you getting a ses light now? TWO how is the car responding differently?

now you should clean your IAC it is connected to the square 4 Wire connector just below your throttle position senor on the TB... the sensor unscrews... it is a place that will build a suprising amount of carbon and should be cleaned for the sake of doing it if nothing else... DO NOT use any type of solvent on this sensor... the passage in the TB however is safe dont hold back on the Carb cleaner...

you mentioned being able to start it on ether... will it start on ether if you have already tried to start it?

 

Spitot, Thanks for trying to help. Its alot of data but alot has happened and I figured no use wasting everyones time with things we have already done The car is an 89 Iroc with the 5.7 Everything is still stock, but the engine was rebuilt about 40k ago. I bought it from a guy called the Camaro King in CA. He has a business selling nothing be Camaros. He took it in on trade. He painted it and updated the interior. The original owner had an engine building company build the motor. I called them as I had the paperwork and the owner gave me the info on it. They did a complete rebuild and did the installation. I researched their company and it seemed legite. The work seemed very quality, but they did leave a few of the old sensors. Some were new. I also found two items that have been altered prior to me getting it. Radiator fans have been wired up a little, but still with sensors and all. My guess is for the new connectors. Second, the steering column has been altered at the bottom (or fixed because the plastic is broke) I know something was changed because the neutral safety switch seems to no longer be hooked up. Besides that, everything looks factory.

To answer your other questions:

1) I get the security and service engine lights on the bottom right corner. Neither of them stay on after the car starts and I have never thrown a light or a code...accept for the one time I forgot to hook the MAF back up The key is the factory unit with the security button.

2) I went out to unplug the coolant sensor. I believe I know which one you were talking about because I just changed the plugs tonight. Single wire, single prong, plastic coating? Anyway, when I touched it, it fell off in my hand. Wire has been spliced and is bare at one point. Connector is all but gone. I dont believe it is worth its weight in dirt. It did not cause the ecm to throw a light. I did however do the aldl jumper check and all of the sudden I had a 42 code. "Electronic Spark Timing - Poor electrical connection, open or short in circuit, defective ignition module, defective ECM". It has never had this until now. I would like to reset the system and double check it. I can do that by disconnecting the battery correct? The car did not respond any differently.

3) IAC Cleaning. We considered doing that but wasnt sure why or how. Plus the book mentioned wiggling the pintle in so it was less than 1-1/8" out and dont use solvent. Therefore, we didnt know how or why we were doing any of it and opted not to so that I didnt have to replace a $75 dollar part. If you can make me a little more comfortable, I would be glad to try.

4) The starting. I would like to restate this a little. I bought the car 3 years ago. The first 4 hour trip, I shut it off and the next morning went to go to training. It started and stalled. Each time I started it, it ran a little longer and I kept getting to where I could feather the throttle. On the 20th time, it started and never acted that way again....for 4 months. It did it again after a 4 hour drive. I shut it off for gas and the same thing. This time I took it to a shop up the road and shut it off. It wouldnt start again. About 2 hours later it just started like a new one. Never showed itself again. Now for restarting. From day one, if you shut it off and immediately restart it, it will just sit and turn. It turns well, but wont start. I have checked and there is spark at this point, but it wont fire. I never shut it off and restart immediately so no real issue. Occasionally when the wife had it, if you let off the gas and stop quick it stalled. Never had it do it to me. Recently I put the car up for rough running issues. The no start didnt happen till after I put the EGR and Coil on it. It pretty much starts when it wants. Very seldom if it isnt cool will it start. I can start it with eather (I said eather, but it was actually carb cleaner) It seems to help, but isnt definite. She does what she wants.

After all I have done, it very much seems electrical. Something that gets hot very quick. I started the car after new plugs tonight and it spun tires down the driveway. I backed it up and it started its missing. Within 60 seconds, it had got noticably worse. Within a few, it was barely running on its own. The puzzling part Im having problems dealing with is that the bad fuel consumption I found in a bad EGR. I definitely fixed some problem with the destroyed pick up coil replacement. I still have the miss though and a start issue that didnt start until I started replacing stuff.

Parts replaced:

Fuel Filter
EGR
EGR Temp Sensor
Coil
Plugs and Wires
Sensor on bottom back side of plenum
Pick Up Coil
Air Filters

Parts Checked:

New Coil
Ignition Module
Battery
Alternator
Injector wiring voltage

Keep with me! And thanks again

 

Sorry, while looking at my thread, I somehow duplicated my last response. So I deleted the text and I guess we'll call it a bump!

 

good...

1) thats good the ecm can throw the light

2) sorta kinda was the right sensor what you unplugged was the coolent temp sending unit for the gauge in the dash... thinking you tried the wrong side... not sure on the 89 exactly i was under the impression it would be on the passenger side it is a 2 wire weatherpack connector that will enter a coolant passage either in the head or the intake... the sensor will sorta control fueling dependant on engine coolant temps is a common reason for the starts okay when cold but idles rough when warm

3) IAC cleaning is worth it... at least remove it and have a look if it is pretty clean i wouldnt worry about the sensor... i mean clean though not just sorta clean... now the throttle body where the IAC screws in should be spotless...
Cleaning the IAC itself is fairly easy there is actaully a tech writeup in the tech articals on the homepage of this site...

now something else i wonder about is how the car is off idle say cruise/ WOT and anywhere inbetween...

one other thing you could try this is sorta a shot in the dark but when the car starts to get real rough have you tried unplugging the EGR and plugging the VAC lines just incase

 

Spitot, I disconnected the correct sensor today. It was directly under the throttle body. It immediately thru a code 15 which is a faulty temp sens. It did not change the running of the car at all. I disconnected the battery to clear the codes, re-disconnected the dash temp sensor that I did yesterday and did not receive the 42 code back.

As far as wot or hard acceleration, the car never runs differently. Once the miss/pulse/surge/herky jerky started, its there no matter what accept when its ice cold. Within seconds of the car starting, it begins to miss and gets worse over the next few minutes. Like whatever it is is something electronic that can change temps very quick.

I have not checked/cleaned the IAC yet. Headed out now.

 

Ive got one thing to say..CHECK FUEL PRESSURE! buy or rent a fuel pressure gauge and test it.....The reason it starts up when its cold is because the lack of pressure is ok because the ECM is commanded the air brought in to be bare minimum! Check Fuel pressure!!

 

Regulator, thanks man. Im looking for any fresh ideas that might be out there. I have heard fuel pump since the beginning. I have prayed that its not because I keep hearing what a nightmare it is and Im in a driveway with no garage and no friends! Anyway, I bought a fuel pressure guage up front. The book says 33-47 lbs of pressure. I have 43. It also says start up should be 3-10 less. I went to 40. After shut off, it held pressure 30 minutes later until I disconnected it. Im open for other suggestions/tests. Thanks again. Bob

 

By the way, cleaned the IAC. I had a horribly dirty pintle! Anyway, I reinstalled it and nothing different. May have idled a little better, but the slight miss is still there and when it warms up, the big miss is there.

 

Is it okay to use carb cleaner on the IAC to clean it??

 

NO no no absolutly NO solvents on the IAC...

your fuel pressure is fine the ECM has no way of controling air flow only monitoring it... i mention the CTS because it controls some of the cold fueling IE right after startup with the engine cold like a choke would only a bad/faulty one would never reach the higher temps causing the stumbling rough idle... now when you tested it was the car still idling rough or was it smooth?

you saying that you unplugged it and the idle didnt respond would lead me to believe that the sensor was bad however the computer throwing the code makes that a more difficult statement to make because the ecm wont just set a code if the sensor isnt giving an expected reading there has to be a specific set of conditions met during the time of the out of spec reading to actually get a code...



next time you are running the car and it starts to get rough try unplugging the CTS... dont plug it back in while the car is running... if the idle stays rough and doesnt get way worse i would say change that out it should be pretty cheap.... after you have shut off the car try to start it again right away if it wont start try unplugging your MAF or tap the top of the maf gently...sorta like tightening a spark plug not to tight but not to lose... hard to discribe... it might make the car sluggish if it fires depending on how it was running before... the car is now in limp mode over fueling and i believe pulling out some timing it should run good...well shouldnt want to stall

give it try give us your findings... hopefully in a day or two the Search for the forums will be working again then you will be able to find TONS more info