So my boyfriend drove my car the other day and it hasn't run since. He said it started lagging when he would try to accelerate then it died. He restarted in neutral and had the same issue. After nursing it as far as he could, the car just refused to start again. It rotates but doesn't catch. I pulled the codes and got a 45 (rich exhaust) 44 (lean exhaust), 34 & 33 (both are the MAP sensor) and a 32 (EGR system). All of these parts have been replaced within the last six months but had still been throwing the codes so I doubt it is those. I am getting good fuel pressure and my brother tested the spark and said it was good. The plug I pulled however was coated with oil and smelled like gas. When I try to start the car it tries to start but just won't. It sounds like it will catch but then immediately dies. Then just turns and turns. It won't start in limp mode either. We know the battery is good. Tried resetting the computer. Not sure what else to do. I know the car is tired but it is normally a really good and reliable car even with over half a million miles. The fuel pump and filter are about 4 years old. The timing chain, transmission and rear end was replaced a little over a year ago. Within the last six months or so it has gotten a new alternator, distributor cap, rotor and coil, power steering pump, serpentine belt, O2 sensor, egr, ignition control and numerous other parts. I have done much work on it myself but can never seem to diagnose the problems with it. Any ideas?

 

I would really appreciate any help on this. It is the only car I have and I need it to be able to get my kids around.

 

Going out on a limb, but perhaps a chunk of crud is hanging open the new egr valve. If that were the case, the MAP sensor would get false readings, possibly enough to throw a code. Thats a stretch, but considering you are saying that you have replaced egr and map, its a possibility. Its definately a case where I would plug in with my scanner and look at map values and whatnot.

As far as diagnosing that, you could start the car, or try too, and try to manually actuate the egr. If you get no change at all, it could be stuck open. Sometimes just unbolting it you will find the prob, as in chunks of crud.

 

I had pulled the egr and looked at it. I didn't see anything there. Put it back on. No change. I don't have fancy equipment. I hot wired the computer with a paper clip to pull the codes.

 

Rare, but sometimes the ECU can go wacky sometimes itself. Probably not in your case though. Maybe the ignition module?

 

I had replaced the ignition control module not that long ago, when trying to fix something (I don't remember what), anyways it turned out to be good so I kept the old one as a spare. It didn't help either.

By the way it is a stock 3.1L V6 automatic.

 

Without the ability to see map value on a scan tool, you may be just as well off to test the map sensor. First, check and make sure it has reference voltage applied to it. If that is good, backpin it on the signal wire, set your meter for DC voltage. Use a mity-vac and apply vacuum to the map sensor. YOu can do it in steps, starting at like 10", 15", then 20". See if you see any change in voltage. With 2 map codes, I think I would start there. These cars will usually run, though, with a bad map. I would also test for spark. If you crank it and it doesnt hit, its missing one of the big three. Air, fuel, spark. Air, probably not. Fuel and spark are all thats left. Check for spark delivered to the plugs, not at the coil. Take an extra spark plug and pull wires. Stick plug in wire, sit on exhaust manifold and crank her up. See if you have good spark.

 

I will try it myself. My brother claimed to have checked the spark and that it was good but he isn't always the most motivated person. lol. Besides I keep thinking how good can the spark be when the plugs are black? Will let you guys know. In the mean time if anyone has any other ideas please let me know. I really need to get this fixed.

 

If the plugs are fouled black, you really should change them anyway. I have seen cars run horrilby, just from spark plugs. The last time the intake went on my bonneville and filled the cylinders with coolant, we just gave up and put in new plugs. Tried and tried, it wouldnt run. Stuck in new plugs, fired on the first try and ran great. Something to think about.

 

Yep. If your plugs are fouled, change them out with new ones and see what happens.

 

I intended to change them. I know they build up a lot in it, however I have never seen it not run due to them. I know it is a possibility though. How often are they supposed to be changed anyways? I tend to have to change them every time I change my oil. Is that normal?

 

OK so I had to wait till the snow thawed enough I that I could get out the door but I finally managed to change the plugs. Got a bunch of snow dumped down my shirt but no difference in the car. Any other ideas?

 

were you getting spark? the next thing to do would be to manually add "fuel" ether is my personal choice especially in the cold which it sounds like it is in your area

 

i agree here. Give it a little huff through the intake and let er rip. If she takes off, you know where to start.

 

Tried that already too. Made no difference. But I did notice that 2 of the spark plugs on the driver's had gas on them. The car hasn't been driven in a week, and I hadn't tried to start it for 2 days either. Is that normal? Sorry guys I work on my car but I am far from a mechanic.

 

by what you are saying i would try a fuel pressure test first thing before spending all that money on parts, next i would check spark. and then compression, thouse are the three things that a engane needs to run, egr map and all them other sensers will not keep the engane from starting. just becasuse you get a egr or map code does not mean thats whats wrong. theres othere conditions that cuase them codes.

 

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge. However if I hit the fuel pressure release valve The spray goes about half way up the windshield. I will see if I ca borrow the gauge though.

 

If you gave it a huff of ether and it didnt start, that kinda narrows it down. You probably have spark problems.

 

check the timing as well

 

How would I check the timing without the car starting?

 

To check the timing on a motor that wont run is the same as one that does except you have to have some1 crank the motor for you. Check and see if the distrubitor aint loose maybe it got thrown outta whack.

 

The more you test, the more it reminds me of one of my cars I had.
My computer died, and that was the last thing I checked.

Do you happen to know anyone with a 3.1L V6 around the same model year in your area?
If so, then you might want to see if you can borrow their computer just to test to see if it is that or not.

 

TOO MUCH FUEL PRESUERE IS BAD. fuel regulater could be bad and alowing fuel to flow threw the vacum line. disconect vacume line to regulater and turn the key on if you get fuel thats the problem.
----------
is this car a DI or DEI car. anotherwords does it have a distibuter

 

No I don't know anyone with a car like mine out here. Not even remotely. I do know where the computer is in my car though. If I pull it is there anyway to test it? I am not thrilled at the idea but I have to look at all possibilities.

I am not familiar with what you mean by a DI or DEI but it does have a distributor.

Where is the fuel regulator located?

 

id go to the junkyard to get a computer and swap it and see if its bad

 

I will if it comes down to it but I would like to exhaust all other possibilities first. I don't have the ability to go throw parts at the car. I wish I could, and then I could start upgrading. OH well someday....

 

That kinda falls into the checking of spark. You could check the timing while cranking. The thing is, timing doesnt generally up and change itself. If it was right before thats probably not what failed. You really, really, should find someone with a scantool and see what they can find out. Sometimes the problem is just waiting to be seen, when you talk to the ecm. An aside, If you know you have good fuel pressure, and you know it wont run when you introduce fuel to it, we know its not a fuel issue. It would at least be hitting when you added the ether to it. Forget fuel for the time being. Focus on the spark side of things. Either in timing or consistency and quality. Have you pulled spark plug wires and put a spark plug in them, and grounded it to see if you are getting spark to the plugs yet? That should be your very next step, IMO.

 

I am getting good spark and fuel pressure. As far as if it is too much fuel pressure I am not sure. Going to check the timing and fuel regulator. Let you know what I find. As of this moment though it almost seems as if it cranks and "catches" but dies instantly.

 

You pretty well ruled out fuel by spraying ether into the intake. You should be focusing on what is preventing it from running. Just because you have spark doesnt mean that you have good spark, at the right time.

 

My brother is going to help me check the spark,timing, compression and for vacuum leaks tomorrow when he gets off work. What else should we look at?

 

sounds like the timing chain jumped or distibter gear is gone, fuel regulater is on the fuel rail on the intak manifold. the egr code would be set due to the timing chain same with map code.

 

So I can't seem to get anyone who can even sit in the car and turn the key. I am flying completely solo now on my car. Anyway I can test this stuff by myself or do I have to have somebody to assist me?

 

So I am sitting here looking at my car wondering how I am going to get my son to his dad this weekend. Does anyone have any idea on where to go from here with this? I have nobody to help me here and can't afford to get the car to a shop much less have them check it out. Please help.

 

SOUNDS LIKE A TIMING CHAIN TO ME. i would try indexing the distributer bring crank up on #1 cylender on the compresion stroke and look at the distibuter and see if they line up were there suposed too. im in Colorado so im in good here.

 

Check the exhaust backpressure. Get a guage that screws into an oxygen sensor opening and check to make sure that the catalytic converter isn't toasted. If you don't want to get a guage you can try cutting the exhaust in front of the converter and see if itll start, make sure the plugs are clean for that though...

I fixed a Ranger once with symptoms almost identical to yours and that's what it ended up beeing, the catalytic converter.

I still wouldn't look past a compression test and first a foremost proper fuel pressure and spark...

If the engine was running rich it would eventually plug your converter.

 

From what I understand, it looks like my car may be way past due for the timing chain to be replaced. It was last changed 3 years ago but probably about 150,000 miles. I have to guess on the mileage because my odometer (I think that is the right name) doesn't work so it doesn't show it. I am going to try that tomorrow. I am doing it by myself though since my brother is gone. Wish me luck.

 

Wanted to post a quick rant about how nice it would have been to know to loosen the bolts on the pulleys before taking off the serpentine belt. LOL Oh well my neighbors are enjoying this. Why can't they design cars so it is easy for a 135 lbs girl to work on them? LOL I think it's a conspiracy. OK back to fighting with the car.

 

why are you taking the pullys off?, all you needed to do is pull #1 sparkplug but it on compression stroke take distributer cap off and look at were the rotor is pointing on the cap if its pointint to #1 on the cap the chain is fine if not pull the distributer after making a note were the rotor is pointing and look at the gear on the distributer. if its ok then you need to do a compression check.
----------
A engane need three things to run Compression, fuel and Spark.

 

Why waste time doing a compression test on an engine that was running fine? Surely it didnt have a catastrophic failure on all 6 cyls all at once. Check to make sure the rotor is turning. That will be sufficient. get it to TDC#1 and make sure its pointing at #1 post on cap. I cant stress how important this is: IF YOU ADDED ETHER, AND THERE IS FUEL PRESSURE IN THE RAIL, ITS 99.9999% NOT FUEL. Look at your spark situation. just because the module is known good before, doesnt mean squat right now. The rest of the dizzy could be junk. Long story short, fuel isnt your problem.

 

if the timing chain jumped there would be low of no compresion.

 

which is why I said to check the rotor to cap configuration. Also, honestly, they dont usually jump. Normally they slip as the teeth come apart. So what you end up with is popping and fire out the intake and exhaust, not really a crank and nothing condition.

 

i had a 1965 buick skylark GS with the 340 that the plastic cam gear went away and it would not start.

 

Good morning to all. Getting ready to go do round 2 on the timing chain. Just thought I'd drop a quick line. Question : Is it normal to be able to turn the engine by hand over and over without it stopping in either direction? Someone was telling me that this wasn't a good thing. Also how much of everything has to come off to change the timing chain? I know it is the front of the engine but how much of everything does that include? I assume the power steering pump and ac pump/fan (whatever it is) as the water pump is attached behind them. What about on the other side? I just don't want more work than needed. Then I have to remember how it all goes back together.

 

did you check ecm fuse?

 

[QUOTE=ladyjynx;3711386]Question : Is it normal to be able to turn the engine by hand over and over without it stopping in either direction? QUOTE]

Not exactly sure what you mean, can you clarify?
With a breaker bar or long wrench you should be able to turn your crankshaft, but there should be resistance. But if you can just grab your pulley or harmonic balancer and turn your engine by hand with no tools, then I would say there is either an issue, or you are freaky strong.

Someone mentioned that if the timing chain started to slip you would notice poor performance and not the engine not starting at all. Well, I had an 86 Firebird that had one of those plastic coated timing chains start to come apart on me.
The first day the engine started running a noticeable ruff, but then I parked it at night and the next day the car would not start at all, Because when I went to start it in the cold morning, more of the plastic broke off and the chain jumped significantly.

But it sounds like you replaced your timing chain just 3 years ago. Usually they don’t go bad that fast. But I would have checked the alignment of the distributor compared to TDC on number 1 first.


I am really hoping for your sake that it is something simple like the timing chain.
But I really hope you post what the final solution was.
I am really curious what the final solution will be.

 

I intend to keep everyone informed of everything I find as I go along including the final resolution. As of right now I am somewhat disheartened. I got the front all torn apart all the way down to the timing chain and though the chain is worn and does need replaced, the car did not jump timing and it is not the cause of my problem. However the distributor is pointing to the fourth plug not the first. I have been informed that if my distributor went it may have taken my camshaft I think it was with it. And if it did then considering that the motor has over 500,000 miles on it and has never been rebuilt it wouldn't do any good to repair it. So I am faced with the possibility of needing a new engine. In any case I am going to pull the distributor and check it out.

Also as far as the hand turning, I can't turn it by the pulley but can turn it with little effort with tools. There is not much resistance. I know I am abnormally strong compared to most girls but I don't think I am that strong.

 

When the timing gears are dot-to-dot, that is the #6 firing position. Cylinder #6 is 4 away from #1 on the distributor cap.

 

[QUOTE=ezysk;3711494]If you read the post above you will see that was me, and what i said was there should be some wicked freaky flames coming out somewhere coupled with some bangs and pops. Not just a crank and no hit thing.

 

Not sure if it makes a difference but I have the 6 cylinder not the 8. But to make it easy for me to comprehend as I am not good with technical processing in my head, Are you saying that with the timing marks lined up the distributor would point directly across from the #1 on the cap? I assumed it should be pointing to the number one. Also looking at the distributor what "mark" am I actually supposed to look at? I feel like a ditz but I am looking at the "tongue" type piece that sticks out on the rotor. I just want to check in and make sure I am doing this right.

 

Never mind. . .