So I've decided that the best way to get 500whp into my yet to be bought third gen may be to build the engine. I checked the smog laws in Virginia and the DMV regulations, and it appears that if I went with an 84 or earlier Camaro then I could bypass the emission testing because the car would be considered antique. One problem solved(if you look at having to give up the 85 IROC as some kind of accomplishment).

I'm working on a budget here, which is why I've decided to give up on crate motors (the LS3 to be more specific) for now - I'm looking to build this thing with around $14k, give or take a thousand, including the cost of the Camaro so I'd prefer to build the engine for under $7000. I've spent hours going over this with a friend and aside from having to buy and get familiar with the tools needed to build an engine, and the more complicated issues like balancing, building an engine really doesn't seem that hard. It's like one guy on here said to me the other day - it isn't complicated at all, just meticulous. This buddy of mine is in the process of building a drag engine for his 2nd gen camaro and seems to agree. Besides, with all the after-market support for these cars I should be able to drop a lot of the load on good people like yourselves haha.

So then, to the questions - what block should I start with? I'm thinking I'll want to end up with a 427 so should I start off with a small block from a junked camaro or truck, have it bored, magnifluxed, the works, and then match it up with the appropriate 4340 crank? I know I'll need forged internals for these kinds of numbers, so what kind of rods, pistons, etc would you guys recommend? I'm going to want to go with aluminum heads unless anybody can give me a reason not to - I just seem to hear a lot about how much better and lighter they are than iron.

I would ask my bud to point me in the direction of the best pieces for this type of application, but it would do more bad than good - he's dropped fourteen thousand on his engine and will probably be spending another thousand in order to finish the last few steps to have it ready this Spring. I'm not looking to spend anywhere NEAR that much money but he keeps one-uping himself everytime he points out a part. Pretty soon everything he suggests costs well over two thousand dollars haha. (It's funny, too, because he actually spent $250 to begin with on the block and it turned into fourteen grand - wow)

Anyway, I appreciate your all's time and suggestions on parts. Any warnings or advice will be strongly considered. Thanks again.

 

If you want to end up with a 427 SBC, you're going to have to start with a 400 block, which means out of a truck or van. For the work you'll be putting into it, it'd be worth looking into an aftermarket block instead.

 

what do you need 500hp for

sounds like you have been hangin with my race for too long

I am looking to power down my ride

no use for it on the street

350hp/350tq is plenty for the street

 

I like to drive very fast.
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Yah I'll look into that some more but it seemed to me that ripping a 400 block out of an old truck would be a nice way to save money.

 

A good rule of thumb is to plan half your budget for making the power, and half for handling it.

With your $14k starting point, say you spend $2k on the car. Now you have $12k left to go fast. Split that 50/50, and go from there.

In case you're wondering if that's excessive, do the math. You'll need an upgraded transmission, let's assume a TH700R-4: $1400 for a built transmission, and $800 for a higher stall converter. You'll need to upgrade the rear end: $2000 for a 12-bolt or 9-inch, plus brakes, another $800. You've got $1000 left - subframe connectors, $250; poly bushings, $150; tubular control arms $400; little things like shocks, u-joints, etc., that part of the budget is gone.

As stated, 500 HP is a lot for factory blocks. Aftermarket go in the range of $2000, and with 427 ci, is the only thing you should even consider if you only want to pay for this once. That leaves $4k for the rest of the engine: rotating assembly (in the $1000-$1200 range); heads ($1200-$1600); valve train ($600); carb ($500); misc (gaskets, intake, distributor, water pump, air cleaner, plugs, wires, etc.) - again, budget shot.

 

Excellent, so I should have just enough money to complete nothing. I had no idea you guys pushing 500+ horsepower were into your cars over fifteen thousand - and I'm not even talking about your paint jobs, rims, etc. Wow. Reality check. Ya know, I hd those numbers in mind but hadn't really lined them up yet. I guess the only thing to do is settle for a cheap crate engine like the patriot performance ones I've been looking at or just stay with my IS300 until I have thirty grand to do this right. Fail.

 

500whp is a pretty tall order. That's like 615 off the crank. As 57 described, it is not cheap. I would even go on a limb and say that a few of his price estimates were on the low side by 3-4 hundred.

 

Most projects fail either because the total cost was not considered, or shortcuts were taken such as the rear end resulting in breakage.

There's a reason people have been asking why 500 HP - it's expensive and arguably excessive. My Camaro is putting out somewhere in the neighborhood of 375 sea level flywheel HP, and the '57 somewhere around 475. The Camaro is very streetable and reasonably faster than 95% of what's on the road. The '57 is driven from the garage to the track, ~6 miles one-way, and that's about all you want to do with it. I'm losing about 8% power due to our elevation, and still make those statements.

 

Good luck just finding one like that. It's been 28 years since the last one was made, and they weren't that common on the first place. Most of them have already been snatched up from the junkyards, and the rest of them sell at a premium. It wouldn't really be saving money anyway if you split it in half at the power levels you're talking about.

 

Well then it sounds like it's my hp goals that are unrealistic and not me wanting to build a Camaro. I must have gotten greedy, and I'm sure my pal with the 700hp and all the youtube videos of guys pushing 900 horses in their fourth gens didn't help either haha. I mean shoot, lets be honest - even if I was able to build a Camaro with 600hp to the crank - what kind of gas mileage would I be getting haha. I had just read a few hot rodder magazine articles on 600hp small blocks that led me to believe I could come up with a cheap, lasting, reliable, streetable engine. Oh well. Back to the drawing board. Thanks for your all's help.

 

An LS1/T56 in a $2-4k 3rd gen could easily be done for a total of $14k. 305 net HP stock (that's about 360 gross flywheel), 20+ MPG, 13's in the 1/4 mile.

 

x2. SUmmit sells Trickflow kits for the Ls that will get you into the 500's. If I remember right, the LS block is good to 700~hp, not sure on the rotating assm.

 

^^you mean these?

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...18750&D=318750

 

Its all preference dude. I have been in a 500hp street car and I felt it was very streetable. When my build starts, I want to be in that area also.

 

I can take a right hand turn at 40 without hitting the brakes or making tire noise.

not because I am such a great builder but the suspention of the 3rd GEN

our cars are the best on the street for the price in my opinion

put some subframe connectors, poly bushings and rear control arms and panhard bar- bam you are on rail

see we have coil springs and struts up front. a very good combo

build a small block with some good flowin heads and 9.5:1 comp

build the 700 hard core

and like the wise kid said build up a rear end that can handle the torque you put down. I have gone through many

people ask how much hp a rear can take you need to know how much tq it can take from the get

bottom line if you want 500hp go for it no matter what we say, but really build the car to make yourself happy

braggin to buds is great but you have to drive it not them

 

Braggin to buds is alright but I'm partial to destroying imports. I can't stand spoiled 16 year olds leaving me in their 40 thousand dollar evo's dust any longer. I wanna put them to shame.

 

Nope, right here.
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...DS=1&N=700+145
Its 3 g's, you will need some intake and computer parts, probably, but you could use the stock block and rotating assm. Ls motors have six bolt mains and fracture cut rods, should be able to handle that power and then some if you need more (No2 comes to mind.) My only advice is to THOROUGHLY research what is involved with the swap.
Or consider a 500 Caddy. The 1970 500 had 400hp and enough torque to shift the earth on its axis.Engines are still common but the later years had less hp. If you are not able to weld blindfolded or know someone that can, this my not be a good route.

 

A 502 BBC would be considerably easier than a 500 Cadillac.
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I've seen lots of 500 HP street cars, too. Most of them make about 275 HP at the rear wheels.

 

But much more $$. That is his concern.

 

By the time you were finished, a 502 BBC would be a whole lot cheaper than a 500 Cadillac.

 

I disagree, providing he can find a good used motor. (The 1970 engine is already making 15 ft/lb more torque stock than a 502/502) I wouldnt say you would have to rebuild the 500 due to the fact they turn low revs, just freshen up the bearings, throw on an intake manifold, carb, cam, and headers. Its not going to be as sexy as a brand new 502 w/a forged assembly, but the power and budget are in tact. My impression tho is the fabrication is higher than most people's ability.

 

You'd have to be unbelievably fortunate to find an almost 40-year-old 1970 or 1971 Caddy 500 in the junkyard, let alone in workable shape. Even if you did, they only made 340-350 net HP when installed with accessories into a full-sized luxury land-barge that had enough room for full exhaust.

You'd be more likely to find a 1972-76 low-compression smog dog, which even then isn't all that common considering it was only available in one model from one manufacturer of a higher-end car with a limited market, until 1976 when it was available in almost all the models from one manufacturer of limited-market cars. At their best they made only about 240 HP net, and about 190 HP at their worst. To make decent power out of them, you'd need some modifications. There's virtually no aftermarket support though, so you'd find someone who knows how to rework the factory stuff.

After that, assuming you managed to make decent power, you need to put it into the car. It doesn't mount the same as the SBC though, so you'll need to fabricate something. Then you need an exhaust, but full-sized Cadillac manifolds aren't going to fit, so you're going to have to weld your own system up. Then, hopefully you got a working transmission with the engine, because any transmission that came in a thirdgen isn't going to bolt up to it, so you need to figure out how to make the transmission fit. From there on though, you only have the usual problems with putting 500 HP into a thirdgen.

Or, you can drop in a BBC which uses the same engine mounts, takes the same transmission, and bolt up a set of off-the-shelf chassis-specific headers.

 

.........so half of you feel it's pointless, bordering on irresponsible to start my first engine build with 500horses in mind while the other half of you think it's not only possible, but well worth the extra time and money. The half of you that feel its worth while, though, seem to disagree on how to attain it on a budget. I'm going to spend the next few months doing a whole hell of a lot of research on this stuff. Until then, if I can sell my current car quickly, I'll be driving someone else's thirty thousand dollar project (I'm not joking either - I've found a few guys in VA over the past few days who are selling their third gens for under 5 thousand after they put over thirty grand into them in the past fifteen years - this is clearly the upside of a ****ed economy).

 

As originally stated, 500 N/A rear-wheel horsepower in streetable form is an unrealistic goal regardless of how many engines you've built before, and is especially ill-advised without extensive additional modifications to the car to handle that power. You'll find lots of people who claim they've done it, or they know someone who has, but when it comes down to it, they're either being hopelessly optimistic about how much power was actually made, or they're using an uncommonly broad definition of "streetable".

You could do it with a power-adder, if you were willing to put up with the inconvenience of nitrous or the expense of forced-induction. Either way, it doesn't let you cut corners on the build. You need everything to be just as strong with a power-adder as you would if you were making that power naturally-aspirated.

Take people's claims of having spent $30,000 on their car with a grain of salt, as well. A lot of times that covers parts which have been replaced with others over time.

 

Take this one for example - what's your all's thoughts? Granted, I'd have to see it in person and drive it for a bit to get a real feel for the work done, but it looks nice haha.

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...974888105.html

 

These are his two responses to my e-mails in which I inquire about whether or not he's got documentation of the work he's done - still no straight answer there. But, here it is:

"the car has 21000 on everything I mean I re-did everything drive train interior paint wheels brakes I totally redidthe car when it had 101000 miles on it so total is 122000 call me and I can go into detail"

"it is a 4bolt main 350 crane compucam 2040 pete jackson gear drive acell probramible fuel injection and timing, richmond gear 6 speed centerforce dual friction clutch and as said full restoration so no leaks at all"

As for the interior and exterior he says it's all been completely (custom) redone/refinished. Sounds like its worth a look. $4000 is about double to triple what I wanted to spend, but a deal is always nice, too.

 

also, what am I missing here -

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...arts_list.html

This is just one of a half dozen articles I've read over the past few days that say 500-600 hp is totally possible and cheap if done right. What am I missing. These guys in the article are certainly no smarter than I am; just more experienced. If they can do it then me and a few mechanic friends can do it, too.

 

That's 500 gross HP on a dyno... there's a world of difference between that and the 600 net rear-wheel HP you were talking about. Bolt that engine into a car and put some nice-to-have things like an alternator, a water pump, an air cleaner, and an exhaust system on it, and then turn a transmission and a rear end with it, and you'll see a lot of it disappear.

Even still, it makes peak HP at 6600 RPM (or higher), which is getting a bit high for street fun. Notice that they didn't even start recording until it was at 4,000, where a lot of street engines are starting to peak.

 

Because LSx heads are a better, more efficient cylinder head than SBC heads. They're a better design for making power. Look at the valve sizes and the CFM at .600" lift. Air flow creates horsepower. Those heads have airflow. Now compare that to even the best of the best of the SBC 23° heads.

 

Well, maybe I'll investigate the forced induction route. If supercharged small blocks cost anything like supercharged 2jz-ge's cost than I'm **** outa luck. Thanks for the input, guys - and thanks for not flaming the noob. Who knows - you may see me at meet this summer pushing four hundred horses to the wheels with a bad *** third gen and then you can say, "Hey, you see that guy? He doesn't know **** about cars and he built that thing himself. Behold the power of the internet."
----------
.....or you may see me at the track pushing 600 horses to the wheels and you'll be putting your foot in your mouth - right up until something like this happens haha....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjE-wHsjZ_E

 

Sufficient funds and doing it the right way. That's why, in one of your other threads, I mentioned doing everything BUT the motor first. That way, everything is done the right way, no cutting corners on anything.

 

I must have misunderstood you - so you're talking about actually making the rear, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades on the car before the motor?

Well thats just not possible - I'm on a timeline with fixed funds here haha. I am literally working with the worth of my current vehicle and the resale value of its modifications (that I'll obviously part out). I'm a college student planning on attending UVA next year and the following year haha -I may even be looking at grad school after that - I don't have anything like salary to be changing this and that up with.

I'm looking to make the most detailed, deeply thought out blueprint for a streetable roadmonster and then building it in two months time. It's more of a quickly executed plan than a project. There are over twenty or thirty grand worth of tools sitting thirty feet away from me right now - a painting booth with an air filtration and conditioning system my girl's dad built - all sitting 3000sqft garage just aching to be filled with a third gen and car parts. I've got two guys with extensive knowledge of cars (not the third gen, though) sitting twenty feet from me.

I know it can be done, too. There's no doubt in my mind. It's just going to take a lot of these seemingly useless questions of mine and hours upon hours of research/shopping/input collecting before I can come up with a near perfect compromise. It's simply my hobby for the next few months to offset time with the girlfriend and time spent in classes/studying.

I'm in a place right now that most of you probably can no longer remember - a place in which words like "camshaft" or "net horsepower" or "bore" mean absolutely nothing AND, in many cases, are not even accompanied with a mental image haha.

There may be some people on here that don't like that, I dunno - and I definitely don't care. Maybe some people feel that if you're going to be a fan of something you've got to put your heart and soul into it. I'm not that kind of person. My motto is a lot like Picasso's: "A good artist borrows another artist's work, but a GREAT artist steals it."

Anyway, thanks for the input and I'll keep trying to come up with something doable.

 

Will you have more time and funds after too much engine has trashed your transmission and/or rear end?

 

no no, I agree with you guys - 500 hundred horses to the wheels is beginning to sound more and more like an unrealistic goal for the type of time and funds I'm working with. It's the happy medium I'm looking for now.

I'm already sitting here research forced induction because really, I don't mind messing with that stuff. It's really the only way to get real power in the scene I'm currently a part of so nothing about it turns me off. We'll see. But yah, I don't disagree with you guys at all. I'd have to be one idiotic, arrogant piece of work to do that. I'm just asking questions.
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Although I will say this - with the amount of times these cars and their engines have been modified for different people's different tastes, I don't for one second think I can't plan this thing out step by step before doing it. I don't see any reason, for my needs at least, why I'd have to start with one part of the car before finishing another. It can all be done simultaneously. I just need to figure out a good plan, for example: This rear end goes good with this engine with these mods and these brakes and suspension set ups work best with that drivetrain and so on and so forth.

 

If one in every one thousand of the Americans that have lived in America over the past seventy years modified an American muscle car's engine at some point in their life then you're talking about something like five hundred thousand to one million people that have played with these motors. That's just America, too - you're not even talking about Mexicans, central and south Americans, Europeans, the Japanese, Russians, Chinese, Africans, etc. And where I come from, more than one out of every one thousand people have modified an engine. It's more like one out of every fifty men or one out of every 90 people. Yah haha - I'll figure this out.

 

347 stroker fox body

 

^^what he said haha.....and yes, for anybody noticing the time intervals between my post tonight I have actually pulled an all nighter. Another luxury (curse?) of being in school. I'm just basically teaching myself the basics. Ya know, I really think my friend summed up the technology behind engines really well with this statement,"Nah, nah man, cars and engines and all that crap isn't complicated - it's just a whole **** load of not very complicated things."

 

Smokey Yunick was a pretty accomplished engine/car builder. He said everything you needed to know about making an engine work better was in high school physics books.

Of course, today's high schools aren't what they were in his day. . .

 

Honestly if you want to go fast for cheap then BUY someone's project car that is done turn key. Hop on racingjunk.com etc and purchase a nicely done car for 12k or so and that'll leave you 2k in case it needs any parts fixed on the car. With how tanked the economy is, you have much more buying power now than ever before. I know I have upper 20s in my camaro and it's not even where I'd like it to be. Speed costs, buying someone elses project gets you double the car easily over building it yourself.

 

[quote=five7kid;4000152]Smokey Yunick was a pretty accomplished engine/car builder. He said everything you needed to know about making an engine work better was in high school physics books.


That's for sure - today's highschools push students to spend their junior and senior year charging through college level math/physics/business courses. In order to compete for a place at a good college today the highschool student is expected to take a minimum of two preparatory SAT courses before even taking the test in order to crank out 1400+ scores. Advanced calculus, advanced biology, advanced physics, advanced.....you get the idea. 4.0 to 4.5 GPA's are basically required for admission into worth while universities and being a minority doesn't hurt at all either. Extra curricular activities such as oversees charity work and corporate internships at ages 16-19 are becoming run of the mill among college applicants. Grad school has become a necessity for my generation to make it somewhere in the corporate world - a masters is what an undergrad degree was twenty years ago. This a global market we're dealing with now and all slackers(including Americans) are simply left behind. We're being pushed to the breaking point, a lot of the time, in order to make sure the massive gap left by dying/retiring baby boomers doesn't destroy what's left of our economy.

Yah......The average highschool student nowadays could build a concept V12 if they put their mind to it.

 

He was, but he was working in a different era.

 

Not the average high school kids I work with. IQ of a brussel sprout is more like it..

 

^^Haha, yah well there are dumb people in every generation. The highschools can't be doing too bad if GM has, as I read a few months ago, contracted out the 2010+ Corvette's appearance to 18-22 year old design interns. This country's educational system is leaps and bounds ahead of what it was twenty or thirty years ago. There is just no arguing that. One thing to be careful of, too; Apathy should not be mistaken for idiocy. I know one problem my generation faces is the sheer amount of opportunities out there and the amount of work it takes to narrow down your interests into the dream career (which thankfully, we've all be given the chance to have). Those of my friends from highschool that have not chosen to pursue law or medical degrees have found themselves sitting back and relaxing for a little while - they simply don't have to work if they don't want to. There is just so much money out there to be made. I can think of a few friends that have taken corporate positions that still smoke a bowl everyday on the way into a $90k a year job each morning. They just don't care - and they don't have to. I don't share their philosophies, though.

 

Although I did work with some real dumb-asses at my last job. It's sort of embarrassing. I turn on the TV and see commercials for TV series based off of college kids getting ****ed up in the Gulf of California and I wonder if that's what people think my generation consists of? Yah, on second thought there are a lot of dumb-asses in high schools today - but there have always been a lot of dumb-asses in American highschools.

 

At your school, perhaps... don't try to generalize your experience over an entire country.

 

stock 400 blocks dont agree with stroker cranks either, it will work, just may not last to long

 

This country's education system is miles behind what it was in the 50's, and slipping every year. What used to be considered 8th grade math, history, physics, and language is now college level. The curve took a serious change in negative slope with the establishment of the Department of Education. Smokey didn't even finish high school, yet he was a B-17 pilot with over 50 combat missions. You could try to argue that today's technology is too complicated for that to happen today, but sorry, that argument don't fly with me.

 

five7kid's occupation listed in his profile:

*Mechanical Engineer, Orion launch abort system propulsion*

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/co...s-jm-test.html

I submit.

 

My motor!

That photo actually passed through my laptop on its way to the public.

My occupation and usable information on this Board have very little to do with each other.

 

Smokey was THE man! He said my three favorite quotes of all time- 1. "The sun don't shine on the same dog's a_ _ all the time". 2. "If your going to deal with an SOB, you gotta be able to talk SOB!" and 3. "I don't consider it cussing, I consider it punctuation!"
If you want to read an EXCELLENT story about the car manufacturers and high performance and racing when it was getting started, read his three "Best Damn Garage in Town" series books.

As far as your future engine goes, a crate or partial crate is probably a good bet for a newbie that wants to learn. And the advice about building a strong chassis and drivetrain is right on.

My advice would be to forget that 500-600 hp. stuff until after you get some experience. I would not even consider trying to spend that much money on an attempt for that much power on a first build, that's insane. That would be like flying Jet Fighters in a Gymnasium! No disrespect intended, we all had to learn, and often can still stand to learn more. I learn more evry time I pick up a car magazine or read this forum.

If you really want to build an engine, go get an old 350 out of a junkyard or somewhere and get a relatively low cost, but decent "better than stock" performance engine kit from somewhere like Northern Auto Parts. They have nice small block Chevy kits with hypereutectic pistons with coated skirts, cam, bearings and etc. for around $350-400. Get a decent local machine shop to machine your parts, help you with some part selections, and warm over some cost effective used Vortec heads and a stock crank for you. An engine like this will make about 300 hp. and do you proud for a first time Hot Rod and be a decent ride all around.

Hang around the machine shop or local racer's shop if they will let you, so you can learn a little about how and what they do. Be polite, show them that you want to learn and volunteer to help out washing parts or sweeping the floor or something. And don't ask for a price break on your work because you did some lackey work around the shop. If they let you around the shop long enough to eat lunch with them, you will learn a ton while your eating lunch and BS'ing. Unfortunately there aren't nearly as many neighborhood gearheads around these days, or at least ones that aren't just money spending, part- replacing BS'ers.

I was lucky enough to have a great old guy doing my machining years ago. He liked me and took the time to explain why and how he did everything. And he knew from his own racing experience what stock parts would work and when you needed aftermarket stuff, although that is always up for interpertation. I saw him race and knew his record so I knew he could walk the walk.

Build that first engine and make some mistakes. Learn. Get it running. Learn. Run that engine hard and break it. Learn. Fix it up, beat some imports, get your a_ _ kicked by some other ones. Learn. Break a rear end and a transmission and fix em or replace them with something at least a little better. Learn.

After doing this for a while you will aquire the skills, knowledge, experience and ideas to help you decide what parts and products you want, like and/or need.
This is what makes hotrodding, building your own style, skills and ideas into a good running engine. Not sitting down with a car trader magazine, a Summit Racing catalog (although you will need that catalog!), a prncil and piece of paper and a calculator. Buying HP only goes so far! Knowledge with even half decent funding goes all the way!

You won't have enough budget to do two engines in this manner, but you will be driving and burning rubber more wisely and cheaply in the meantime. Then later, if you get into a better position in life, you will be ready to step it up and not be a poseur.

Just my opinion!