vulcanravenxvg

Ive got an 89 R.s with a 6 cyl 2.8 fuel injected motor with 222200 miles on it.(with a manifold exhaust leak a T.P.S issue and a little valve tick) Ive spent 300 bucks on it and Ive owned the car for 2 years snd replaced the transmission the floors the sparkplugs wires cap rotor carpet headliner brake lines gas lines and exhaust from the catback.not to mention a kick a$$ stereo system and seat covers lol. the car just needs a paintjob right now and a tiny bit of T.L.C. my Girlfriend owns a 2003 dodge neon that she paid 6,000 for.( i think my car is alot better for the amount of money I payed) she insists im wasting time and money on my car. its really bugging me. the car starts up with no trouble and the worst of my problems is my lying gas guage that sometimes gets me stranded. that having been said ive only spent about 1500 bucks on this car in total!! but every time I buy a new part I get bitched at cause she thinks its awaste of money... she dosnt realise that buying a newer car is a bigger waste... or is it? am I wrong? im restoring/ daily driving this car every day and i think im doing the right thing to have a car that im going to keep the rest of my life... but im really starting to question that now... PLEASE HELP ME!!!! am i crazy to keep putting money into my car? should I save for a new car or use the money for repairs!!?? who is wrong??? me or my girlfriend!!??

84Z28406

If the amount of money you said you've spent on your Camaro is even halfway accurate, your girlfriends wrong. You've got a car with much less invested than her run of the mill, boring $6000 neon. Keep the car, you're doing the right thing. I guess I'm lucky, my girlfriend helped me work on my Camaro today. Anyways, you're definately not crazy, she is.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

One of the things I always tell people when they present me with the same stupid argument, is that for every monthly car payment they make, in addition to having to pay for full coverage insurance, is money that I can throw into my beloved Camaro, which has been bought and fully paid for for a loooonnngg time! Besides, like the above poster said, a Neon is such a plain, yawn-inducing car you'd have to be a total drone to own something like that and be proud of it! Granted, a V6 in a Camaro is no great shakes, but at least it's a sporty, good-looking car. My 3rd gen is absolutely screaming for a paint job, yet I still get "hey, nice car" comments fairly often. How many people do you know that would say that in regards to a Neon? My 69 Camaro is a total showstopper, but it tickled me to death a couple of weeks ago when a little boy looked at both cars and said he liked my beat up 3rd gen better! I've had many women pass through my life so far, but I've owned a Camaro since the day I got my driver's license.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Here are some questions to ask yourself & please don't get offended:
Why do I have this car? What do my plans consist of for it? Do I want to spend the time to work on it? What can I do myself & save $? What can I afford if I need pro help?
I got our Camaro as a Christmas present(in 06) for my bride & I to work on together. We've come along way with it & have a bit more to go.
Seems like it'll never get done (lolol) sometimes. Frustration &aggravation go hand in hand once in a while.She's done ALOT of work on it & we learned alot together.She now thinks I'm crazy(lol) & could've gotten something else.
It takes time & $.It seems to me you're enjoying it to the fullest right now.
Hang in there & keep your head up.

vulcanravenxvg

I love you guys... hahah yeah I want this car forever. and it gets me back and forth to college and hasnt been off the road for anything longer than 2 weeks (tranny). as far as im concerned... a new motor would be the biggest thing that could come in between me and the car and thats about a grand or so (depending if i up the motor to a v8) lol so I think that ive made the right choice as well. besides.. i change my oil every 3000 miles and shes nearly triple past due.. wonder whos car will be around longer?!?! lol all you guys whos girlfriends/wives work on your cars with you.. GOOD JOB! lol my G.F would work on a 1st gen with me. (if i had one) But other than that.. she wont even work on her own. hahahaha how much longer would you say I could get that motor to run? (222200 miles) oh and heres answers to those questions t-top asked... 1. I have this car because Im in love with third gen camaros.. Ive had an 86 berlinetta that never went anywhere and ended up selling to buy this. 2. my plan is to daily drive/ restore/modify. 3. do I want to spend the time to work on it? I ride with a full tool kit under my backseat. lol. i enjoy learning from why my car dosnt operate why it supposed to... I like the challenge of fixing things. 4 what can I do myself? Ive got junkyard connections and shop connections.. so if i cant do it... my regular local shop can for like 20 bucks an hour labor... and the only thing ive had a shop do is weld the exhaust and install the tranny. 5. what can i afford if i need pro help? right now.. not a whole lot. but i wouldnt ever crush my car. it would sit till i had the money. and sorry.... im going to read half of your minds right now... getting a new girlfriend isnt an option. and neither is getting a new car. they are the loves of my life. but she would win if it came down to it. good thing she hasnt made me choose yet lol

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

First off, let me just point out that coming to a THIRDGEN forum and essentially asking if you should keep the car or the girl is asking to be told to keep the car. NOBODY on here is going to tell you to ditch the car because your girlfriend says so.

That being said, I've owned and daily driven both Camaros and Neons and I certainly prefer the Camaro. Even though I can only drive it about 7-8 months out of the year because I refuse to drive it in snow. The Neon I had sucked. It was a well-built reliable car, but was very boring, had no power, and there were 4 others just like it on my street alone. My Camaro was a V6 when I got it, is now a v8 and is 4 different colors while waiting for its paint job in a few years. I get more comments and more people asking me when I'm getting the Camaro out in the spring than I ever did when driving the Neon. I also have 2 daughters who pretty much refuse to ride in "Mommy's" boring Buick. They only want to ride in the Camaro when I have it out.

Luckily, I found a wife who is not afraid to get her hands dirty helping me when I need it and who wants her own project car(old Beetle, not a thirdgen though). I can do 90% of the work myself and when you're doing that much work to a car restoring/modding it you find that it becomes much cheaper to purchase the tools you need to do the big jobs like welding than it is to pay someone else to do it.

You can check out my VBGarage pics of when I got the car and in the last 2 years I have put it back together and swapped in a 350. I spent $600 for the car, a little over $4k in parts. I try to get my parts as cheaply as I can as I don't have even a large budget for car parts and I have managed to save myself over $6k in parts costs and I don't even want to guess at how much I have saved in labor costs. As a very rough guesstimate, I have over 700 hours in labor spent on this car. Even at $20/hour labor, that's a HUGE savings. Every time she gets frustrated with me not getting the Camaro or another of our cars fixed fast enough, I remind her how much $$ we're saving over paying someone to fix it. My mechanic only charges around $15/hour labor but he only sees my cars once a year for about a half hour to slap the annual inspection sticker on them. He knows I take care of them.

I know you said you don't want to leave her, but I would start considering it if I were you. My wife doesn't like a lot of the things that I spend money on, but its my money and as long as the bills are getting paid and there is food in the fridge, she doesn't bitch too much. I KNOW that she doesn't always like how much time/money I spend on the Camaro, but she loves & understands me enough to not pester me about getting rid of the car. Although she does tease me about the 4-tone paint job

Edit: Wow, sorry for the novel. I didn't realize I had gotten that long-winded.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

For those who don't like to read long posts, heres the short version:

Your GF's wrong.

Unless you have had the car for less than 6 months, you are ahead of the game. A new car payment will cost you a lot more when you factor in insurance as Pat Hall mentioned, even if you account for the $$ you would save with the better fuel mileage.

As long as you maintain the car properly, that engine will outlast your kids if you ever have any. The V6 engines put in these cars last forever. Mine had 105k on it when I got the car and we drove it out of the barn it was stored in, onto the trailer, off the trailer, around the block and into my garage with no coolant. I put another hard 3k on it after I fixed the car up and it ran strong the whole time. The only reason I pulled it was because I wanted a V8.

vulcanravenxvg

she tolerates my car... just thinks im foolosh to be spending it on a "clunker" to her the car is a fossil... shes used to the best... (thats why she dates me) hahaha and my camaro isnt up to her standards cause it isnt shiny. lol and you know what... you would be suprised what people will tell you if you ask an honest question.. with the high mileage and poor fuel economy (for some reason its running rich and gets poor mpg) even the biggest fan of this car (me) was starting to question the reliability of this car. but i think its worth it in the long run... just wanted to double check.

Awesome-X

Dude don't listen to your girlfriend. Not 4 days ago my girlfriend was going on and on about her 4th gen was so superior to mine and how its better in every single conceivable way. I traded an old ford taurus for my car, trailered it home and put a regular 350 cam in it and I have a great running car. It needs shocks struts and painted pretty bad, but basicly I have about $40 in gaskets right now.
She buys her car for $1400
puts $300 in a new clutch master and slave cylinder
but you still have to sit there and pump the clutch to put it in gear
Her passenger window doesnt roll down and both mine do and they're the original window motors while hers have been replaced.
So we take her car about 70 miles away the night that she was arguing with me about my car...
Guess what? We kill it and it won't start. We have to have it towed home.
I didn't even have to say a word to her....
I was victorious.

vulcanravenxvg

thats a story I would tell my childern as I tuck them in at night... its very insiprational. hahahahahaha too bad I dont have children. hahahahahah. at least a 4th gen is a hellva lot better than a 03 neon. (we have a bet to see whos car will last longer) and its going to be sooo hard biting my tounge when i win.. because you see... if shes not happy then I get no fireworks in the bedroom. *whip cracks* hahahaha

84Z28406

Haha, so true eh? If she ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. Then again, if I were in that situation, I'm not sure I'd be able to keep my mouth shut. I just really like being right.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

sounds to me like she's more worried about how much money your gunna have left to spend on her :P

Awesome-X

Yeah typical woman for you haha. Oh, and add $170 more to my little story, what with a new starter and some miscellaneous parts lol. I think I'm winning haha.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

woah! thats an expesnive starter! i rebuild em just for that reason 30 bucks, new solenoid, bearings, brushes and a thorough cleaning and its good to go!

Awesome-X

Well it wasn't just the starter it was other stuff. Her dad owns a mechanics shop, the starter alone was about $120 though and the old starter wasn't even bad (I didn't think it was but I'm not a mechanic so..)

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

it really is easy man, its all nuts and bolts my friend, good thing to to learn, and it sounds like her dad's shop ripped you off seeing as i can get a starter from napa for any SBC for 60 bucks

84Z28406

I just bought a bosch starter for my Camaro, and it was about $135 Canadian, so 120 isn't too bad when you figure our relative dollars.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

man where are you guys shopping?? >.>

84Z28406

Where are you shopping? I want cheap parts too.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...emfd+-+Premium

el_muerte

If she's used to the best, why'd she get a Neon? Not to criticize or anything but that's pretty much a bottom-of-the-barrel car for build quality and reliability, they depreciate like nothing else and crap out after a few years. You're miles ahead of her based on dollars. If it's a big deal to her, try breaking down both of your vehicle costs per year to see who's ahead... my dad taught me that you're getting a good deal when your car costs less than $1000 per year, in maintenance costs and with purchase price factored in.

vulcanravenxvg

all arguments aside.. im much more comfortable with her having the neon.. its NOT a performance car. and its reliable.. if i break bown its a minor inconvienience... if she breaks down... she dosnt have half the connections for parts and towing and blah blah blah. it puts me at ease knowing she has a modern car. so if she wants ot brag about her car its okay... its a good car for a 17 year old girl whos a first time driver. and at least if the thing sh**s the bed in 3 years... it will be a learning expierence for her.which is what im hoping it will work out to be. anyways... i love my car and im glad i have it

vulcanravenxvg

I know you said you don't want to leave her, but I would start considering it if I were you. My wife doesn't like a lot of the things that I spend money on, but its my money and as long as the bills are getting paid and there is food in the fridge, she doesn't bitch too much. I KNOW that she doesn't always like how much time/money I spend on the Camaro, but she loves & understands me enough to not pester me about getting rid of the car. Although she does tease me about the 4-tone paint job



she understands my love for the car... but of course she tries to convince me to get rid of it. she thinks its unsafe. and if she was in an unsafe car i would prolly try to convince her to buy something else too. but the car isnt unsafe at all... its just she thinks its too old. and since shes spoiled and dosent have to build her own car... that makes mine inferior to her. but she tolerates it. but of course she wont race me. go figure. and i think i would tease you about a 4 tone paintjob too. can we get some pics? Im curious.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

second on the paint job, kinda wanna see too :P

bitchin_buick

just tell your ole lady that it is what it is. A hobby! My ole lady would rather see me spending money on my cars and at home. Tinkering with my cars rather than running around the bars with my buddies.... Keep the car!

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

The first pic is of the car last summer after I got it all fixed up. I know there are only 3 colors on the car in the pic The 4th color is a bunch of spots on the hood and by the mirror on the driver's door that I repaired some minor rust and then primered. About 25% of the hood is covered in primer spots.

The second pic shows the car on the trailer as its being delivered to my house in 2007. What you can't see in the pic is the other trailer and 2 truck beds filled with parts to fix it

Any time I mention something about bringing parts home from the junkyard, or about getting a parts car my wife still reminds me of the effort required to get this car to my house.

84Z28406

92RS_Ttop, I think I'm going to save those pictures just to remind me that maybe my Camaro isn't really that bad and that anything can be fixed.

vulcanravenxvg

:O THAT WAS HORRIBLE TO SAY. t-top... youve got ***** posting those pics. i cant wait to see it REAALLY painted. what ya got in mind for color? haha this thread has gotten way off topic but idc... lets just shoot the breeze about random stuff... hey... i heard that the motor mounts for a v6 will mount on a v8. im skeptical of this. can anyone verify or discredit this? oh and i want a maroon red with racing stripes on my car... thatd look sick i think.

Rolling Thunder

See to me i see it like this. The purpose of a car fundamentally is to get you from point a to point b reliably and economically. However you accomplish that is up to you. The common argument is that automatically new cars = better just cause they don't break down as much. However you also spend more on taxes, insurance, parts and repairs when things do break, and lastly the car itself (don't forget about depreciation). So really an old car can be run economical because the only real imposing expense is repairs of an old car is repairs (perhaps maybe gas mileage as well depending on the cars being compared). However if you do the repairs yourself its not so expencive to repair even if repairs are required more frequently. So it can be very cheap to run an old car but there is one issue to concern yourself with and thats reliability. This is where she does kinda have you. If that is your sole source of transportation you could get into some very bad positions. I mean we depend on cars virtually every day and bosses don't look kindly on being late or missing work because your car wouldn't start (not to mention lost wages). I mean you have to get to work but if a fuel pump goes what are you going to do? Now ive work out a whole theory on how to attain reliable transportation and it breaks down a little like this. 1 expencive but very reliable car or multiple semi reliable cars or just have some alternative plan should the car break down (walking to work haveing a bus schedual handy ect). Now you could easily afford 2 older cars for the price of her one newer car and have just as reliable transportation that she does because even if one is down you always have a back up. Its even more reliable than one new car because even new cars have problems and even if it never broke down you still cant avoid things like an accident which would take your car out of the picture indeffinetly no matter how good your car was. The catch come in when the repairs exceed what you can get a replacement for. I mean chevy made great cars but at over 200k on your v6 i don't want to say your days are numbered but the motor will eventually need work let alone other things. Especially since you said you have a valve tick that could be your bottom end and if that's the case your motor is already done for. At this rate it might be cheaper just to get a replacement car should something major fail however if this is a car you want to keep forever you probably will just repair it spending more money on it than you "should". This is the only place your girl friend really has a leg to stand on in this argument. The question is where to go from here? Personally i almost side with your girl friend on this. Unless you were completely content with owning a v6 camaro and willing to spen more than you "should" you might be better off getting another v8 third gen (or any older car of your liking for that matter) instead of spending top $ to rebuild or replace your V6. You could swap it to a v8 but that's a fair amount of work and a lot more expensive than just buying 3rd gen already v8 equipped. I really hate to say it but long story short I think when the motor finally does quit (or any other major component for that matter) you should either part it out and put the money to a new old car or accept the fact your going to throw large amounts of money into a car when other options would have been more economical. I ran into this same situation my first car too was a v6 camaro but when you added up the cost to repair or replace the motor, windshield, and exhaust to make it truly road worthy again it far exceeded the cost for me to buy a good running TPI v8 trans am for $500. In that case would it have made much sense to fix up the V6 when i could have a "better" more valuable car for less money already running no work required? Things can always be fixed you just have to ask yourself what you want in then end and are you prepared to accept the compromises you will need to make to achieve that goal? I know people grow attached to their cars but trust me you'll grow attached to every car you own. lol sorry for the long post but theres really a lot to it lol.

vulcanravenxvg

btw i love the AUDIO FORCE sticker on the windshield... hahahhaha epic fail. im glad you took that off... wait you did right!?

vulcanravenxvg

well said...however.. I have lotsa part hook-ups. so just about any repar would be cheap... albiet second hand.

Awesome-X

Her dad doesn't charge us for the parts or the work, so its all free. So basically this is all how much its cost him, not us. I know how to do it all but if something doesn't work right I'd rather no one be able to blame me for it. I do my own stuff to my own car.

vulcanravenxvg

hmmm. maybe i can get rid of my girlfriend.. who are you dating !!?? hahahaha jk jk

Rolling Thunder

Maybe so but for him to take care of the car like that for you is a very kind gesture. Personally Ide feel pretty guilty about accepting that kind of help as i know how expensive some repairs can be just in parts let alone a mechanics time is very valuable and time spend on you car is not only money out of his pocket on parts but also lost income on time he could spend on a paying customer car. Quite honestly im amazed he does it unless its just a small repair once in a great while. However i'm sure you do what you can to make it up to him or atleast i hope so. However what would happen if you two were to brake up and the repairs started coming out of your pocket?

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

GM V6's are very VERY prone to valve train noise. really not a whole lot you can do for it either, but you can try adjusting the lash

Awesome-X

Ok I guess I wasn't clear on that. He doesn't buy my parts or work on my car, just on hers. Although he does let me use the hydraulic lifts, the rollback or wrecker if I need them, and all the tools in the shop so thats freaking awesome. I do my stuff to my car. She does what she can to pay him back and stuff lol. Better?

vulcanravenxvg

thats awesome bro!

Rolling Thunder

lol oh that changes things a bit lol. I was going to say there are some nice people out there but wow lol.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

Even if I hadn't had to replace the windshield due to the crack running from side to side right in the middle of it, I would have scraped that off yes.

I HATE large windshield stickers, especially the ones that tell me the make/model of the car they are on. Like I can't tell that for myself???

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

That is ****ing awesome, I really wish I could find a mechanic around me willing to let me at least let me use the lifts once in a while. Especially since I am planning on replacing my exhaust and working on the rear end this winter. I've got a friend with a 1-ton diesel truck and car trailer for towing cars(he's the one that towed my Camaro to my house).

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

You lost me on the horrible part??

I never said the 4-tone paint job was the final paint scheme Paint will be the LAST thing I do so I don't have to worry about messing it up while still working on the car. I have some body mods planned besides the reversed hood and once those are done I can start looking at paint. As for color, I'm definitely going with a gloss black, I just haven't decided on an accent yet. I wanna do the stripes with red metal flake in a clear base so that you can only see the stripes when the light hits the flakes just right but I can't decide on the hockey-stick stripes or the normal hood stripes. My daughters keep begging me to paint it yellow with black stripes like Bumblebee in the new transformers movies. They're too young to understand that he is a different body style, they just know he is a Camaro like daddy's.

As for the V6/V8 motor mounts, they are different IIRC. I know I changed them when I swapped my V6 for the V8, but they were the originals with 105k on them so they weren't worth keeping anyhow.

As for maroon red, it depends on the red. I'm not fond of the metallic maroon on my Camaro, but maybe that's cause its only on the doors back?? It would really depend on what color stripes you went with. Maroon(no flake) with black or mabye dark green stripes would look good.

Edit: Sorry for the multiple posts, I swear one of the days I will figure out how to insert multiple quotes into a single post.

vulcanravenxvg

84z28406 said hed save your pics to remind himself that amything can be fixed. lol i thought that was horrible to say lmao... albiet funny.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

Ahhh, gotcha. Sorry, my brain was kinda fried from work when I posted that.

I'm not offended though. If my car can serve as inspiration to help someone else get through the repairs/restoration of their car, then it makes it that much more worthwhile to have fixed it up.

And there is one other thing to factor in when considering whether or not your car is worth keeping. That's the "I did it" factor. If you're like me and enjoy doing all your own work and being able to point to something on the car and say "I did that" then I think its better to keep an older car that needs some work as opposed to selling it and getting something newer that doesn't need any work. After all the work I've put into my Camaro selling it and getting something else, even a new Camaro, to me is the same as giving up and saying "I can't do it." I know there are things I can't do to the car for whatever reason, but so far that list only has 2 things on it: a front end alignment, and welding part of the new front end in. The alignment I don't have the equipment for and the welding I didn't trust either my little 110v Craftsman MIG welder or my newly learned welding skills to do the major structural welds. I did all the sheet metal welds, but had a friend with a 220v MIG weld the frame pieces together.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Unfortunetly, your girlfriend is wrong, keeping an older car going as a daily driver helps the enviroment a LOT.

One time, Jay Leno said on a show that it infact does help to keep older cars going, instead of junking them, simply because it takes 20,000 gallons of water (I'm assuming from CNC machining) to make a brand new car. However I just googled it, and it says 32,000 gallons of water per ton if finished steel.

Believe it or not, the estimated Mustang production for 2009 was 45,000 cars, each would use about 30,000 gallons of water to make, so get this, manufacturing one production year of cars takes roughly the same amount of water that the whole Hollywood Reservoir holds.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Wow, that's awesome to see someone on here actually post up that they rebuild their own starters! That's definitely become a lost art. My old man, being thouroughly "old school" taught me how to rebuild them back in the 1980's. Thing is, now that you can buy a "remanufactured" one from most parts stores for about $40, most people don't even bother rebuilding them anymore. Problem is, those cheap rebuilt ones have Chinese replacement stuff in them, so you're lucky if they even last a whole year, and that's the ones with the "lifetime" guarantee. The last Auto Zone starter I put in mine lived for about 1 year. I bought a motor from a guy that had an AC Delco remanned starter on it, so when the AZ starter died, I replaced it with the AC Delco one, and that was about 5 or 6 years ago. The last time I asked a parts guy for the individual parts to rebuild one myself, the look on his face was priceless! He looked at me like I was from another planet or something, and said he wasn't able to even get any of that stuff. As far as what Rolling Thunder said in that long post, I can't vouch for the V6's giving up the ghost around 200K, but my old L03 TBI motor and original 700r4 both have 251K on the clock now. Granted, you can tell it's starting to get tired, but it still gets me to work all year long. The only "major repairs" I've had to do is just the basic things that go wrong with all of these cars (heater core, water pump, alternator, starter, radiator, etc.). In fact, my signature says "350 TPI", and I do in fact have a 350 tuned port motor all rebuilt and sitting on the engine stand waiting to go in. I kept kinda waiting to see if the old 305 was ever gonna finally give up the ghost, but since I don't think it's ever gonna die on its own, I'm going ahead and pulling it out in running condition this fall and dropping the new one in. 92RS_Ttop is a smart man. Paint job is the last thing I do on my cars too. Get all the mechanical taken care of first, then make it purty! Oh yeah, and even with 251K on the old L03, I still leave the Neons in the dust when the light turns green!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

hell yea i rebuild em, I know i could get a new one for 15 bucks more but ill tell you what, rebuilding that stuff is actually kinda fun to me, i do my alternators too, my caddy's alternator is a rebuilt CS-144 by me, my buddy''s 2.8 has a CS-144 i rebuilt and altered to fit his bracket, and my l03 turned LB9 is gunna have a rebuilt altered CS-144 in it too. (can you guys tell what my favorite alternator is by chance?) reason number 2 why i rebuild mine is cuz its an OEM A/C Delco starter, the aftermarket ones have crappy noses and the gear doesnt mesh with the teeth on the reing gear as well and glance off making a horrible grinding noise.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Hehehe, yeah I pulled that one on the poor 16 year old kid behind the counter at the parts store too. Told him I needed the brushes and diodes to rebuild an alternator, and I thought he was gonna short circuit. I do know of a couple of places left in town where I can still buy the rebuild parts for them, but it's soooo much fun to ask for them at the big chain parts places. Oh yeah, and heaven help them if they can't find it on the computer and they have to blow the dust off one of the old books to look it up!