Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Finally get my car painted and the guy at the body shop calls me to tell me my engine started making a bad noise when they tried to start it. Car ran great when I dropped it off there. I ended up pulling the engine (carefully) and here's what I found.....

The whole bottom end has a forged crank, forged SRP pistons and Eagle SIR rods. Cam was brand new supercharger grind. Whole engine had less than 2K on it since the rebuild...now it looks like the cam has a flat spot on the tip of one lobe, one rod is shattered and the piston is junk. On a good note - the block seems OK so far, but I need to look closer once I get the heads off...

Awesome-X

Holy crap! I think I'd be a confuzed1 too. Less than 2k on the rebuild?? Who rebuilt it?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Actually, I put it together. I had a machine shop balance the rotating assembly. I had the car on a chassis dyno a month before this happened and it did well. I've never seen a rod fail like this. I have seen rod cap bolts fail and send rods out the side of a block, but never saw a rod bust in half...till today.

Now it makes me wonder if I should just replace the one rod and trust the rest of them or not.....

EDIT - Well, I took off the heads, and the block looks like it survived at least...I'll have to pull the cam out and see if it can be polished or something. Looks like it got scraped right on the top of one lobe. I also got the piston out too and it's shot. I'll post up a pic of the busted piston and rod together for everyone's amusement....

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Why not give yourself some " insurance " since you're going to rebuild, give it the WHOLE once-over so you don't end -up with a HOLE in the pan or block??
Too much $ to take a chance. Who knows what kind of recoil the other rods went thru, or if some bearing surfaces got scuffed.

I've seen 2 rods end up like that.
1 was in a tunnel rammed smblock that was started on eather--talk about a 0-7500RPM in a second!!
The other was from a 468 Bigblock that had a nitrous mishap.

paulo57509

If you're going to throw a rod, it usually happens where yours did. On the journal farthest from the oil pump.

radical82

Seen a few and heard about a bunch more of the import rods breaking... Think I'll stick to using either Howard's or other US forged materials... Not sure the Chinese (or wherever they're made) have the same quality control on the metal purity or the forging process... Also seen a number of Eagle and Scat cranks break, friend of mine had one snap on the 1-2 rod journal....

jj74sd455

oww, watch the rpms

Redlinerevver

so trying to start it ment ( Huge 9000 rpm burn out)

Rich2279

iTrader: (7)

I always had the fear of something like this happening if I left my car at a shop.

FireInMe17

Me too and then it happened.....TWICE!! Needless to say...I'm never taking my car back to those shops again.

The one time I don't do an oil change myself I get it back with 4 quarts of the wrong grade, and not enough transmission fluid the other time around, I was pissed.

CrAlt

Sounds like one of the body shop guys took your car for a good

Redlinerevver

I had the bumper painted on my 4th gen and when I picked it up the front rotors were warped :/ and another 7 miles on the speedo..

FireInMe17

Yeah, that sucks, thats why everytime i drop the car off somewhere I tell the guys I know how many miles are on the thing when I get out of it so they don't dare put anything more than a few tenths on it!

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

yeah, I would definitely have a talk with the "body" shop....

radical82

Yuppers, always blame the shop!!!!! Not saying it didn't happen on a test drive, but stuff does break for other reasons, ya know???? If you don't trust the shop you're using, then find a shop you can trust, but don't bunch all of us independant shop owners into the same type of mentality and think we enjoy ruining your car!!!!

BTW, if someone brought their car into my shop and said they'd wrote down the mileage and it'd better not be driven.....I'd tell them exactly where they could put their car, and their business!!!!!! Sorry fellas, if you haven't worked in or ran a shop, don't be so quick to think you know how everything works!!!! If you were that sharp, you wouldn't need to take your car to a shop, you'd own your own!!!!!

FireInMe17

Driving the car in and out of the shop is one thing, flushing the transmission fluid and putting 10 miles on the car is another, all I'm trying to say!

I don't have to do it anymore, I know all the guys at my Chevy Dealer now! I almost got a job there too.

radical82

Then don't put the bad mouth on ALL SHOPS and don't assume that someone at a shop did this damage!!!! Many of us have been at it for a lot of years (40+ for me) and have put up with more crap from more scammers trying to say you guys did this or that to my car.... Most of the times, it's just plain absurd!!!!

I'm fortunate enough now to be semi-retired and able to pick and chose the cars I work on. I got there by building quality cars and trucks, doing quality work, staying on top of what's new and what works... It's really a PITA to put up with some punk know it all coming in and telling a shop owner how things are, and how he wants them to be...as I said, fortunately I don't have to play the game anymore.

As with many things, don't make assumptions and don't blame the man unless you've been on the other side for awhile! I respect my customers and they respect me..if not, we don't do business together. Folks should pick a shop based on reputation rather then price! Cheaper usually means done cheaper, and faster isn't always better!

FireInMe17

[QUOTE=radical82;4453766]I didn't mean to offend anyone, I'm just here just like you and everyone else to engage in conversation about third gens, and solve problems, not cause them. Thanks.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

I've burnt several chips for people who are afraid of this same thing happening.


3K RPM rev limit and 35 MPH speed limiter keeps everything safe.

jj74sd455

i worked in a dealership bodyshop,ive seen cars tore up in driving between the bodyshop and their paintshop which were about a mile apart. i pulled the electric key cylinder out of my column and mounted it behind my dash so ill never have to worry about leaving my car somewhere other than my trusted tire shop. and if you are that sharp you sure wouldnt own a shop with all the hassles of running a shop, we appreciate the people who do but unless it was your shop this guys talkin about dont be so defensive,or are we feelin guilty?

radical82

I have nothing to feel guilty about....Just tired of seeing all shops regarded as rip off joints who are out to gouge you and mess up your car... Believe it or not, there are some honest shops in this world who actually care about taking good care of a customer's car, and we're more tired of rip off and scam shops then you are!!!! But trust me, there are a lot more good shop owners then bad, it's just that the bad ones seem to garner all the attention... Bad news always travels faster then good news!!!!!!

Sounds like you've found a shop that treats you and your car good, congrats!!! Now, next time somebody starts this "all shops do it" crap why don't you throw in a post plugging your favorite shop as honest, knowledgeable, and hard working folks instead of just joining in the chorus of naysayers?????

RussC

thinking of shop horror stories, i took my old 91 blazer into the local chev dealer to get them to check some of my sensors on the tbi system, and thats it. all they told me when i called was i had a leking rear main seal and wanted 2500 to fix it. i told them hell no and went to pick it up. when i got there and started it up the stereo was cranking at full with someone elses cd in it, luckly it didn't blow my subs. i took the cd back in and gave them some hell, not too much but they got the point. so i pull out onto the street and hear some hellish smashing coming from under the hood. i check it and behold i found a pry bar stuck in the rad, fluid poring out. i go back in and toss the bar onto the counter. and after a few choice words and an hour and a half i got them to give me a new rad. the funnist thing is they wanted to install it. and all of this just to check some sensors.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

There is no need to "test drive" a car that is being painted.

There is no need to paint all shops with the same broad brush.

There is no need to defend unscrupulous shops.

"...started making a bad noise when we went to start it..." Right. Right after we had a little "fun" with this customer's supercharged Camaro.

I don't think I'd be telling such stories to a retired Marine.

Show the shop what you found. Let them offer to pay for it. If they don't offer, insist they do.

BTW, it looks like that broken rod end banged on something. Might want to make sure whatever that was isn't also damaged beyond repair. I, too, would recommend a complete tear-down and full inspection, including Magnaflux.

jj74sd455

Sounds like you've found a shop that treats you and your car good, congrats!!! Now, next time somebody starts this "all shops do it" crap why don't you throw in a post plugging your favorite shop as honest, knowledgeable, and hard working folks instead of just joining in the chorus of naysayers?????[/quote]
for the record i dont see anyone on here saying all shops are bad-all of them have had bad experiences-sounds like you have too,just on the other side of the coin. i believe you when you say you run a good shop and wish you the best with it.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for all the replies everyone....but it seems the thread has gone a bit "wayward"..

I didn't accuse the shop of joy riding the car, and I can't since I have no proof of it. I do feel after speaking with the owner of the place that he felt genuinly bad about the whole thing, and told me as much several times. He did mention that the engine backfired or "Popped" when he attempted to start it, but he further said he's had worse backfires from his own cars and it didn't hurt them so he did not think it was bad until it started and he heard the noise and after hearing the noise he shut it down quickly.

I do know he has a couple of darn nice quick cars himself, so I really don't think he would have bothered beating on my car. I have not asked him yet, if he himself was attempting to start it, or one of his employees when he wasn't around. Again, either way - the bottom line is I don't have proof of any wrong-doing so I am being careful to not outright accuse him of anything.

He offered me the use his engine hoist (which I did), and let me know one of the machine shop employees that frequents his shop was willing to do the engine removal and work for me at a cut-rate price on the side....but I don't like the idea of anyone else but me doing the mechanical work on my car, so I'm doing that myself. I would have done the paint job myself too, but I've been there and tried that and I just hate bodywork and painting, and I just don't have the skills or patience for it.

Anyways, here's a couple pics of the piston/rod after removal. There was a small hole in the oil pan and one cam lobe is does indeed have a flat scuff mark near the top of one lobe. Everything else in the engine looks brand new.

Guest

Any signs of rust in that cylinder?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Rust? - No, no rust anywhere.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Sounds good to me. You dont want my money, you wont get it. Iwas with you until you got all hoity toity thinking that you should have free reign to do whatever you want with someone else's property. God forbid some of us try to protect our investments. I just see no reason for my car to be driven any more than a mile if I leave it in someone else's care. If you need to move it farther than that, trailer it. That's your problem, not mine.

FireInMe17

Agreed! Some people act like they can do what ever they want to other peoples cars and property and get away with it! I want to protect my investment, thats why I brought it to the garage in the first place, and unless its something that needs a test drive, then I don't want you driving around in my car! And if it needs a test drive, let me know, and tell me why! And yeah if you don't want my money then just let me know and someone else will get it. Fair is fair.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

So what your saying is,if someone brings me a car,with a given drivability issue,I have a half mile to diagnose,and another half to conclude that I've effectively repaired the issue?That's absolutely brilliant.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

With a "drivability issue" (whatever that is) it's a different matter entirely. If I take my car somewhere to get it repainted, head gaskets replaced, alignment, whatever, I dont expect it to be driven. There's no need for it. It is MY car. It is MY money. I would venture to guess that most issues are not "drivability issues" beyond the fact that most people cant diagnose their own problems very well so tehy have to defer to a shop to drive it and figure it out for them.

So confuzed, you really dont think some yahoo in the shop started revving it to 8k RPMs and spun a rod after you left? I mean it just sounds like someone fubar'd up the motor, and decided to quietly leave it where it was supposed to be so the owner of the shop could go hop in later and get saddled with the liability. Im sure he personally wasn't involved, but people screw up and mistakes happen and it takes a hell of a lot of integrity to come forward and own up to a multi-thousand dollar mistake on a customer's car when you're the type to go out "hooning" with it in the first place. I've heard of way too many people's cars getting crashed by dealership salesmen/mechanics/inspection peoples/whatever on joyrides so I dont have much patience with it. I jsut wish I was more familiar with that kind of damage to have a more concrete opinion.

Do rods, Chinese or not, really just suddenly disintegrate like that from normal use? It seems like it's really pointing towards some high rpm failure at first glance to me, but Ive never thrown a rod yet, so I dont have much experience with it.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

IRT the rod breakage. I have a problem with this.

A 200K mile stock rod with ten holes drilled in the beam and loose bolts could not have broken like that on a start-up, even with backfires.

AFAIK the only way to cause a rod like that to bend there is either a physical binding like dropped valve or hydrolock, severe detonation, which both would have also damaged the piston, or an over-rev.
I'm not saying there is no other option, but I have yet to learn of them.

Also, keep in mind that an engine can be destroyed by an over-rev without putting any miles on it. I think the rev limiter is the best option.

If I were the shop owner and I saw that rod damage, I would be talking seriously to my employees, and I would offer some compensation.

edit: There is also the possibility that the rod was bent when you dropped it off and it just took a while to crack in two.

jg04222

^^ x2. Does the top of the piston indicate any damage (such as contact with a valve or indication of detonation)?? It either hit something (valve, head, foreign object), was over revved, or was a bad rod to begin with.

Keep in mind that frequent high rpm can fatigue rods that are not designed for it, eventually causing them to break.

badgta

iTrader: (4)

im tired of everything getting blamed on chineese stuff... if thats the case then everyone better take back their camrys, nissans, toyotas etc.. theu are all forgein too!

i agree, somthing made contact.. seems like a valve by the way he describes the cam lobe being flat... would be suprised if the lifter and pushrod are damaged as well....


check everything with a fine tooth comb before reassembly, wash wash wash, and wash again until spot less, cause i am sure some metal went places it wasn't suppose to when that happend..

and i agree also with the taking better care of customers cars.... which is why i am having my ta painted before the engine goes in.. no way am i leaving a 500hp 350 in the hands of some local yokle to see how much power it has... and i always check my milage before droping anything off, better safe than sorry...

id see an attorney if i were you and explain the situation.... i think someone had fun with ya ride my good man...

RS Reaper

Hey man, That is pretty crazy, I've never seen anything like that. Also good job you went about the problem very maturely. Hope you get it rebuilt soon.

Saabster

iTrader: (2)

This is my opinion. I'm all for not blaming someone when you don't have evidence, but that's a serious rod failure.

EDIT: However, I have seen a SAAB engine that was running with a rod bent 15-20 degrees from straight. And it was running great too, it's entirely possible the rod bent a while ago and just chose that day to finally give up.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

InfernalVortex: Well, I don't have experience either with a rod breaking in half. I myself have only driven it up to 5500 RPM's and one other time I saw it at 6K RPM's - once - on the chassis dyno.
305sbc: That's EXACTLY why I have not outright accused the shop of wrong doing. I can get all the attorney's I can afford, and I still can't PROVE anything. So what good would it really do to raise h*ll with the shop at this point? You can bet that if I had proof this damage was due to their negligence, they'd be paying for it.
badgta:Nothing made contact that I can see. I suspect the cam lobe was damaged by the rod cap nut as the crank spun around. Almost half the nut was ground off. With the rod broke like it was, that rod was kinda "out of synch" which allowed the rod cap bolt to make contact with the cam lobe. The lower part of that rod also put a hole in the oil pan right behind the fuel pump. Amazingly enough, there were only a few small chunks of the rod I found in the bottom of the pan - no shavings at all, all lifters etc. OK.
After what I'm going through - GOOD CALL!!
RS Reaper: Thanks - I'm glad someone understands my dilemma with this whole situation. I'll get it going again - still undecided whether I'm going to go through the entire engine again or just fix what's broke -just mo-money either way....

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Any chance this was hydro lock? Not sure of your complete set-up, but a leaking injector could flood a cylinder.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I wish it was almost...at least it would explain why the rod busted. But no, I don't think it was since there was no trace of water in the cylinder or in the oil - I looked closely at the oil as it drained. It's a carbed car, so no leaking injectors to worry about.

I do know the car backfired badly on me once after I had first installed the blower. Sounded like a shotgun went off - and I'm not exaggerating. Funny thing is, I had it on the dyno afterwards and it did fine and i drove it for a month afterwards with no issues. Heck, I even met up with the Power Tour for a stint. I may never know for sure...

I agree that the right thing to do would be to do a total teardown again, have everything magnafluxed and rebuild from there, but I opened up this engine again and everything else looks pristine...and I've been looking hard for any signs of stress on the remaining rods, pistons etc. - and it looks as new as when it went together. Still had good oil pressure when it was clanking from the busted rod. I can read all the P/N's on the actual parts still!

I know I'm taking a chance, but I think I'll try replacing the piston, rod, bearing and oil pan and watch it closely after I start it for water leaking into the oil, etc. and let it go for a few startup and shutdown (heat cycles) and hope it's OK. I guess if I blow another rod and it goes through the block - time for a Motown block then! I've spent enough $$ on this .040 over 400 already...more than it's worth.

uummm

that really sucks what happened to your ride with a rod breaking and all, especially with only 2k on the rebuild. but to be honest, most commercial shops ive been to arent the greatest, my mothers explorer was taken to a shop when it overheated, they said the engine needed replaced because of metal shavings in the coolant, anyone who knows anything about cars knows theres only one moving part in the cooling system (unless theres something out there i dont know of) and they wanted 8k to replace the engine. 750 dollars later, the waterpump was replaced and it ran great for another 20k miles until the timing chain tensioner gave out. i have had good luck with some of the mom and pop shops though, but i mostly do my own work when i can (which is most all of it) but i guess what im getting at, before you take your car to a shop, check around a little, get some recommendations from friends or family or even the BBB. less likely to get screwed that way. as for the rod, im agreeing with everyone else, possibly bent before or locked up some how if there isnt any damage. coulda been a bad foreging at the factory too, who knows, but your absolutely right, no proof then you cant blame em.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

someone did an italian tune up on your car

Guest

I see marks on that crank in your first pictures. I'm not sure I would ignore that. Did you say also that the cam had a mark on it?

A GM dealer (out of business, what a shock) was nice enough to take my car out for a 'test drive' after they repaired a sheared off wrist pin (not joking) and proceeded to overheat the car, and on top of that THEY threw a rod. Didn't tell me about that little detail, of course. They patched it up by replacing presumably just the one rod and maybe a piston, but left the camshaft in place. Well...... that cam was cracked. Ever since it was repaired, the engine had a tick. They blamed it on a lifter, and refused to fix it. 20k miles later that cracked cam finally broke, and sent a rod out the side of the pan.

I would highly advise either checking each part closely (including the previously mentioned magnaflux although that isnt perfect either) and replacing anything questionable. Otherwise, you're more than likely just going to be in there again.

radical82

Did the oil show any evidence of a lot of fuel in the oil? As 57 mentioned, maybe an injector stuck? I have seen fuel leak down on a carbed engine and break things in much the same manner as yours.

I would also like to say that I really admire you for taking the adult approach to settling the situation and actually taking the time to determine the cause rather then just see the effect and start pointing fingers!!!!

I would also offer that IMO a good mag check on the crank and the other 7 rods might be in order.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Naw, those marks are fine. The whole rotating assy. was balanced at the shop. That's probably what you see on the crank. But yeah, one lobe on the cam has a tiny bit of a flat spot worn in on the decending ramp. I have to replace the whole cam because of that tiny spot unfortunatly.

5-7 and radical82 : I agree that a hydro-lock could have caused that kind of damage, and my machine shop mentioned the same thing, but neither myself or the shop can find any evidence of it. I'm just guessing, but I think I would see residual anti-freeze in the cylinder and mixed in with the oil when I drained it - or a strong fuel smell in the oil - but I saw no water or detected fuel in the oil at all.

I'd also think the piston and head chamber for that cylinder would look different from the others when I pulled the heads and piston (since it would have been full of liquid). They were as dry as the other cylinders - so I can only guess it was either a defect in the rod that finally let loose or it had a hairline crack from a previous backfire and that took it's toll. I just don't know.

I decided this puppy is going back together. I have a new piston, rod and bearing along with all the gaskets to put it back together. They are at the shop along with the rod and piston from a good cylinder so they can be balanced. I still need to buy a new cam and I'm trying to decide if I want to run the same grind or something different.

This time, I decided to run MLS head gaskets. The machine shop recommended I run those with boost. (I didn't know that the first time)...

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Just a quick Q-- Is it possible the timing cain jumped??

Good luck with the assembley!!

radical82

If there was no evidence of water or fuel in the cylinder or in the oil pan, then I'd be going with the defective rod, too... You wouldn't be the first I've heard about-and saw one myself-that has experienced rod failure on an import rod... Kid here in town had about 2500 miles on his fresh engine, Scat bottom end, cruizin' down the highway at about 3,000 rpm and #3 let loose--ruined the block, crank, and 1 head...

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

I had a Manly rod let go in 2002. I was just idling through my neighborhood. 427 SBC build. It ruined my bowtie block and took out the oil pan, piston and cam. It looked just like that. The rod had a void in it. I had never seen anything like it. Manly offered a new set of rods but that was all. I was idling when it happened.

Was extremely hard to explain to the wife that my 8000 dollar motor just retired after one drive and I needed her to help me tow it back to the garage a block from home.

I don't think there was foul play here. That looks like a manufacturing defect in the rod. THe force it would take to do that to a healthy rod would be un believeable, and would most likely result in cylinder damage.

DemonYusuke

I can see the rod being defective because of the way it broke I have never seen one that bad before, I would contact the manufacturer and get a hold of someone important and send that picture to them explain it only had 2k on the build and explain the damages it caused, that person would then either tell you that it was your fault, or pay out for the damages and replace the rod, possibly the whole set. Im not saying jump down there throat, either way it would be good for them to have documented proof of failure to compare with others, also go back to the shop pull the owner aside and simply ask who all touched the car, and if he trust and can vouch for them, theres no need to be mean about it. This would cover all the bases and hopefully lead you to an answer to why it failed. Sorry about the engine, I hope you get it fixed soon.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, it's been a couple of months, but I've been busy with the Camaro. Engine is almost together again. Can't wait to get her started and running!!
If I'm lucky, I might have everything put back together before Thirdgenfest comes around.

By far, the cam was the most expensive thing that was damaged. Of course, while any engine is this far torn down, you end up buying more stuff to either make it look better or perform better....Oh..and I decided to paint the engine black again. It shows off chrome and billet parts better, but it's a bit tougher to find oil leaks. That won't be a problem since I'll have no leaks...lol

EDIT: Oooops...How'd that Dodge get in there?