So in class tonight we had another heated discussion that was basically my friend saying he can spend half as much on his Eclipse and "easily get it to 400 HP for a few grand" while he says it will take me about $8 grand to get a planned LS1 swap of mine to 400 + Hp to the wheels. He was showing me turbo kits on ebay for $400 that supposedly would bump his car to 350 whp.

Now, he has the FWD base N/A Eclipse. We already had a huge argument over the fact he and others (mainly kids who don't drive GM cars) think FWD is better than RWD and all this other BS. So with the "performance" apsects of FWD aside after many talks of 6 second Civics on youtube and supposed 1,400 HP camrys, I showed them a vid of an 11.6 second WS6 that, to me, had minimal mods. He had it hot cammed, tuned, drag tires, pulleys, intake and exhaust done to it. In my mind, basic stuff and I thought it was pretty impressive to get him into the 11's. My friends said it prob cost him $5 grand to get those mods.

So what's the deal....I thought with LS1s and many 350s it's extremely easy and CHEAP (cheap-ish?) to get power before even having to go forced induction. Is it really possible to turn a FWD Eclipse into a 400 WHP machine for a few grand?

 

i personally wouldnt trust the turbo kits off ebay. believe it or not you do get what you pay for, especially on something that spins 30-100k rpm. and IMHO, there is no replacement for displacement peroid. and apparently what this kid doesnt realize is that theres alot more to making 350-400 ponies than building the engine up. that eclipse came with maybe 150hp from the factory, and hes taking about adding 200-250 more hp on a factory trans?? sorry but as soon as he dumps the clutch all that hp is gunna be getting him no where fast. and last i checked the factory internals aren't really ment for 400hp. so sure he can buy the kit for 400, then hes going to have costs for the trans, engine rebuild, ecm tuning, ect. so i dont see him getting those #s for "a few grand"

p.s $8000 for a swapped in 400hp lsx really isnt that bad, and neither is $5000 (which is probably wasnt that much) for an 11 sec ws6

 

A junkyard near me will sell me a 97 LT1 for $400, and it runs. I have connections to get an LS1 for hopefully $600-ish, too. I'm unsure what to do, I kinda want the LS1 really badly over an LT1.

A lot of the Mitsubishi and Audi guys say their motors can handle 400 stock internals, that seems high to me though. But what they do is they look at a turbo that says "Stage 3, good for 300 HP" and say if they install it it will give them another 300 Hp...I think they are just being stupid about how it really works when you bolt it on...

 

Well it's all in the fine print by reading that I would assume the kit would support upto 300hp not yeild an additional 300hp. Alot of rice engines can take those numbers with stock bottem end's I tend to see alot more valve train damage on hotrod jap engines then anything. Your best bet it to encourage these people in your class to bolt on that ebay turbo and adjust that BOV for maximum boost on thier 250,000 mile toyota engine. This way you can boast your riding lawn mower is quicker in the 1/4 mile then thier car that blew peices of the engine all over the road.

 

Please don't get insulted but you are a kid who is getting emotionally worked up over nonsense.

Yes, there are Mitsubishi engines that can put down 400HP with mods, those are the Evo's, not the Eclipse.

Also, a "hot cam" is for an LT1 so to see a WS6 running 11's you were watching a video of a 93-97 model year. A bolt on, manny tranny LS1 is putting down more than 300 RWHP. Also, you are getting worked up over a 14 year old engine (LS1 came out in the 97 vette)

If you want to quiet down junior, have him go check out the new Mustang 5.0 with over 400 HP normally aspirated from 302 cubic inches.

The old adage that "there's no repalcement for displacement" is true. Yes, you can always go forced induction or nitrous but the same holds true for larger engines whcih can also go FI.

 

I have so far spent about $1,500 on engine mods (mostly bought from here and ebay) for my GTA and have gained about 65-70 HP roughly I'm guessing. I have dyno results that say I gained about 40-45 HP, but those were done when I still had dead stock exhaust/emissions and was missing a few other mods I now have (check my cardomain for the list). That is on stock heads and stock cam in an L98. I figure for about $1,000-1,250 more if I hunt around and be patient, I'll be able to pick up some ZZ4 aluminum heads to be ported and polished and everything I need to install the ZZ4 cam that I already have (paid $90 for it shipped) along with some 1.6 ratio roller rockers and other goodies. So far in this discussion I'm up to $2,500-2,750 in mods and have made about roughly 150 HP over stock (that makes almost 400 HP total at the engine) and it's still not boosted. Then you get a set of 3.73 rear gears and a higher stall converter for about $500 and now you've just chopped around another full second off in the 1/4 mile on top of what you chopped off with the engine mods. I would be deep into the 12's in the 1/4 mile for just over 3,000 worth of parts on an old L98.
These are just examples of how much you can get for very little just by shopping around on here and ebay and watching for the good deals to come along. Sure, the mitsu guy can do the same thing probably, but is he going to make the HP to dollar ratio that we do? What can he do for $3,000 to his Eclipse and will it get it into the 12's without blowing something up and will it be dependable to drive on the street everyday?
I'd go ahead and tell him to shell out the $400 bucks (your kidding me, right?) and get that turbo for his car and then report back to you in 6 months on how it is running (I'll bet it won't be lol) and it's 1/4 mile times.

 

Just ask him how many stickers it's gonna take to get that mitsue to 400 hp.

a stock ls1 puts out about 350 hp at the crank. a stock ls6 about 405. your class mates are asshats to think a 4 banger would be cheaper to mod

 

That's all what I figured, I just didn't know if I was indeed mistaken about going my LS1 route, I was starting to get worried I was making a bad investment.

Hey how much weight do you guys think the 99-02 LS1s would have (or any year actually) over my 305 TPI? I have heard that the LS1 could be 100 pounds lighter. I was starting to get excited over the unintentional weight savings I might get from going from a freaking pure iron everything motor to an all aluminum engine.

 

Perfect example of boasting about how much money to make a car go fast.
Helped my friend build a 98 T/A LS1.

Cam, valve springs, Vortec Supercharger, Full exhaust, and a tranmission upgrade.

All done by me and him and then tuned by me.
Car put down 470hp @ 6200rpms and 475tq @ 5,400 rpms
It runs 11.4 in the quarter mile.

guess how much it cost to do that.

Little less than 3 grand. Mod for mod against a smaller displacement engine the bigger displacement will get more benifet.
A head swap on a 4 cyl might net 30hp gain but a head swap on a 8 cyl nets 50 to 80 hp gain.
The reason that theres no replacement for displacement is the simple fact that to make power an engine needs both fuel and air. Which ever engine can add more fuel and air then the other will make more power. Thats as simple as you can put it.

4 cyl only gives you 4 areas of fuel and air to incorporate at a displacement of at most 200 cubic inches while a v8 has 8 areas to include fuel and air and a displacement size between 305 to 400 cubic inches (SBC).

Besides consider this, The fastest 4cyl in the world is a modified back halved eclipse that makes 1400hp and runs 6.97 seconds in the 1/4 mile.
The fastest 8cyl engine is a top fuel dragster engine making estimated 8,000 hp and 6,000 tq and runs the 1/4 mile in 4 seconds. 3 seconds faster than the fastest 4 cyl?
To understand once you go past the 9 second mark it takes effectivley double the engines horsepower to cut another second from your time.

But I digress...

Yes going to an LS1 takes somewhere around 100 lbs off. The front nose will sit about an inch higher than it does now.

 

Whoah under 3k for all that AND FI? I can't find Supers for less than 4k kits! Where did you get it?

And yea I'm pretty excited about eventually doing it, an LS1 3rd Gen. It has the Ws6 suspension in it already and handles incredible, the LS1 should make it even better. My goal is to make my Firebird feel like a Porsche.

 

Who gives a darn... At least an F-body is RWD. Its not a sports car if its frontwheel drive. It's either a grocery cart for soccer moms or a prom queen's cute mobile.

And after an LS1 swap, just looking at it wrong will bump it up another 50hp.

Also cutting springs with an angle gridner is a piece of cake. Dont sweat it. You may want to find some v6 springs so the springrate wont get so high, but it's not necessary.

 

Was sold "used" as the entire kit minus one connecting piece by a women who built an ls1 dragster made 3 passes and then sold it to my friend for under 2 grand for the whole kit.
You just have to keep searching for a deal.

The other help is we built the motor ourselves and transmission clutch pack not paying some shop to do the work.

 

Yea the FWD bit was driving me insane. That and "my stock motor and heads can handle up to 400 horses I can slap a turbo on stock and put 8 psi on." Granted I don't know much about Mitsubishi motors, but they didn't know what the LS1 was other than it was a V8 so, time to put our money where our mouths are! Another kid just got a Supra, 89 Twin turbo I6 so right now everyone's like "my car can beat yours", it's gonna be interesting after a year to see where everyone is at.

 

Only thing I'd need a shop for is any machining. And even then I have a machinist friend. Pretty much been fixing and working/repairing everything as we learn it, so I'm building up the car as part of my classes, it's working out pretty good.

 

Thats the best way to do it.
Theres a million ways to make a car go fast but I'll let you in on the biggest secret about building a race car thier is.

It's not the motor with the higest horsepower that usually wins.
The "dyno queen" motors like the Supra I6 are known for thier high horse numbers they throw up yet the best drag racing joke is:
Whats the difference between a 800 hp Supra and 1200 hp Supra?
Nothing they both run 12's.

The reason is the motor might make 800hp but thats only for a small section of the power band.
So if you add every hp and tq rating at 100 rpm intervals and then divide by the number of 100 rpms intervals you would get the average hp of the motor which would be no where near 800hp.

But a motor thats designed to put the tq up from low rpm and keep it up as long as it could and put a good hp up and keep it up through the rpms will have a higher average hp and tq even though it came no where near 800hp.

Law of Averages.

 

Ask them, if FWD is so good, then why are a 99% of supercars are RWD? Or just say "I guess Ferrari and Lamborghini just don't have get the right idea".

When it comes to mods just say "Whatever you do to your car, I'll do to mine. Then lets see who's faster".

I've spoken to these type of people before. Whenever you try to explain anything they will just say your wrong and imports are better. No matter what logic and reason you may use, you just dont know what your talking about. You're better off just ignoring them.

 

Buddy's Eclipse probably would manage 8psi on stock internals; that really isn't much boost. BUT if buddy thinks 8psi boost on his otherwise stock Eclipse will get him to 400hp, he's gonna learn a real expensive lesson and you'll be laughing. Those twin turbo I6 Toyotas are a bit scarier... 260hp stock at ~8psi IIRC, with a much torquey-er engine than a 4-banger, and in a much lighter car than a thirdgen. And rear-wheel drive to boot... actually a decent sports car IMO, and probably quicker than you until you hit 350+hp.

 

Actually this Supra has some pounds on mine. I told him that the first thing he should do is make that thing lighter, that's the best thing to increase his top speed and off the line acceleration if he can take off 200 pounds. I think the Firebird is around 3300 right now, an LS1 should bring it to 3200 and replacing a lot of the cast parts and the heavy rear trunk glass with a notchback and a carbon hood should get it to 3000, I think. Or pretty close. If I can get it to 3000 pounds I'm fairly sure that LS1 stock is going to send it flying

Is it worth it over time replacing all of my suspension with newer, performance pieces? I read an article on Hot Rod about them upgrading an old suspension and they showed the old heavy pieces compared to the new smaller, lighter, stronger metals we have now. Pretty much everything was halved in size and weight yet performed twice as much, I think I could save a lot of weight that way as well as prepare my car for more power. Or is most of my stock WS6 suspension still fine?

 

Couple thoughts here, first of which is, that Idk the detailed specs on this 4 banger eclipse, but I can almost promise you he can't make enough boost to put down 400 hp and not break something, even if crank and rods are strong enough, the pistons will crack at the first hint of a detonation unless they are forged, and most likely they are not.
Also, just ask them how many 205 mph eclipses there are, and show them the corvette zr-1, supercharged ls3 putting down 600+ hp. Also fwd imo is deff not better, awd however I would put about even with rwd in terms of performance, it has a few pros and cons versus it.
An ls1 can hit 400 easy just with bolt on stuff, a full true dual exhaust, a good air intake, some higher ratio roller rockers and a cam would probably do it. But hell, if your 305 is a tpi, just race the kid, I rather doubt his eclipse would win.
And as far as suspension goes.....imo you shouldn't just drop a way more powerful engine in any car, without upgrading suspension and brakes as well, plus suspension can actually make you faster in a straight line as well as non straight line. The more power that makes it to the wheels, the better.

 

It has discs all around already and like I said already has the WS6 suspension It came fully loaded from the factory with everything except the good gear..it has a 2.73 according to RPO codes.

I tailed his Eclipse one night home, we hit 90 before he stopped (my speedo doesn't work so I didnt know how fast we were going had to ask him) and I kept up right on his tail. I know it's gutted and pretty light, he has some intake work done to it and a really really nice suspension package on it but that's it.

If my 24 year old 305 with crank walk can keep up with him I don't know how he thinks he can stand against an LS1 swap

 

I'm not saying stock suspension is bad, I'm saying that putting corvette power levels into a car with stock suspension just isn't the greatest idea, if you have 400 hp, you really should upgrade suspension and brakes, even with less its a good idea, handling is equally important, and so is breaking....bugatti veyron accelerates to 60 in 2.5 seconds, it can also brake to 0 from 60 in 2.5 seconds....theres a good reason for that....
stock suspension and brakes just is not up to the task of safely controlling 400hp imo, these cars from the factory had at most with a 350 tpi, 225 hp, 400 is nearly double that...you wouldn't drop a 200hp engine into a reliant robin would you?

 

Yea true. How much of the suspension do you upgrade? Every little thing or just key parts?

 

It's up to you, but I would at least get poly bushings everywhere but the LCAs(it messes things up if you use them there) as well as SFCs, a rear swaybar if you don't have one, and a strut tower triangle brace.(idk ws6 setup), I mean personally, I plan to replace my entire suspension with aftermarket stuff at some point, but i also plan to take my car to my grave, so its not like I am going to loose money I invest in it by selling it at some point.

 

well maybe I can shine in here.
I bought my camaro it is a 92 rs with a 305 tbi automatic all factory nothing done at all.
when I bought this I bought it in replacment of a eclipse that I built I was tired of trying to beef up imports and see very little.
But to the point I had a 94 eclipse fwd model 1.8 5spd I pulled the engine bored it .30 over forged pistons, ported and polished head,titanium valve springs,large intake and exhaust valves,cai,full header back exhaust,
now don't take me the wrong way the eclipse ran fast but I have ran muscle cars and could not hang.
my uncle told me he was selling his camaro so I bought it since it was it good factory condition I was curiouse to see how well the camaro would do against the eclipse.
so my buddy that helped me build the elcipse drove the eclipse since he has never driven a rwd I drove the camaro I pulled on my eclipse on the jump like he never hit the gas there was smoke just pouring from the front of the eclipse, then around 60 the eclipse started catching up and stayed on my tail till about 110 then my buddy said the eclipse seemed to have a hard time getting past that we stopped at 120.
And for anyone that will say anything I live in the country and I have a 3 mile stretch of open road no entrances or exits no cars we did this on.
still not the safest but this was not around traffic.
hope this helps
I can tell you I tried against a 02 ws6 and lost him by 60 mph this is the reason I wanted a camaro or transam and why I bought one.
So for all else I have every one that drive these great muscle cars to think for opening my eyes lol.

 

I think that it's because people forget you can turbo V8s too Everyone thought my Firebird weighed 3600+ pounds, there is some weird weight stigma associated with them too.

 

In two words, HELL NO.....400 WHP would take a built engine, efficient intercooled turbo setup, C16 or E85, and a built driveline. He would have $10,000 in it or more before he could crest a reliable 400 WHP.

My daily driver has a very mildly cammed (212/212 @ .050, .540/.540" lift, 114* LSA, 4* advance) 5.7/345 CID engine with 1 3/4" primary headers, stock heads, intake, etc. Just cam, headers, and a PCM reprogram. Pulls 345 RWHP @ 5,700 and 356 RWTQ @ 4,650 on a 2nd gear pull through a very heavy duty driveline and on 85 lb each P305/50/R20s. On a small 125 HP shot it put down 428 RWHP @ 5,900 and 470 RWTQ @ 4,400. If I had started with my 5.7 and not had a 4.7, I would have only been about $3K into the whole setup. V8 hands down is easier to make run. I wish I had better numbers, but my 5,300 lbs crew cab truck clicks off 13s NA and should dip into the 12s on spray.

 

Even with the Eclipse guy's imaginary budget the LS1 can break the 400rwhp mark with just a small shot of nitrous. 400 isnt so hard when they start with 350hp at the flywheel

The eclipse on the other hand starts with what? 140-210 at the flywheel

 

If two motors are built with the same specifications (How well the heads flow, size of the cam, etc) the bigger motor will make more power. Will an eclipse with a stock top end running 8 psi beat a LS1 with a stock top end running 8 psi? Absolutely not. Is it possible to make that Eclipse faster then some of the LS1s, yes.
The new 5.0 mustang is a great example of good engineering. It's about time Ford has responded to the LSx platform.

 

The new 5.0 made me want to buy the Mustang for the first time in my life.

 

Arguing with someone who is racing a 420A car is like arguing with a retard.... actually I take that back, there is some level of reasoning with a retard. The 420A was NOT meant for racing. Can you put in a forged rotating assembly and run a turbo? Yes. Will it hold up? Maybe. Is it going to be both cheap and reliable? NO..