So to essentially sum things up,Got this car back in june. She sat for 10 years in a guys barn. Interiors mint, Bodys a little wrecked,Rims have the normal wear and tear
Me and my dad have spent COUNTLESS hours on this car daily
First it was body work,then the exhaust,gas tank,and then the engine
The engine is where all the MAJOR frustration is coming from.
We replaced almost everything
Now the thing is,ever since i got the car for my birthday its been running extraordinarily rich. Smoke constantly barreling out of the exhaust and the passenger side of the engine due to the Y pipe being loose.
But first of all,let me name off what we changed on the motor
Flushed the coolant and refilled it
drained the oil and refiled it
New pressure unit
New oil filter
New fuel filter
new air cleaner
New battery
fixed the timing(Guy had it out to 180 degrees)
New distributor and cap and rotor,not coil
Seafomed the entire car to clean out all the gunk
Fixed the spark plug wires
New starter
new fuel pump
new belt
New pulley
Adjusted smog pump relay
Changed tranny fluid
cleaned the fuel injectors (Its a 305 TBI)
tightened the valve covers
Cleaned the carb
refurbished the air breather
new Spark Plugs
And soo much more, tons
The car ran before,but just barely. The old owner had the timing out 180 degrees and didnt realize it til after he had it all hooked back up. So he rearranged the spark plug wires in a way to where the car would just BARELY start up
We had no idea til a few months ago
The car would get soo hot and we had no idea why,and sure enough that things timing was way out of wack. So we pulled her into the garage and started doing all this engine work
Now the car will NOT start
With the timing adjusted right,the new spark plugs,the wires adjusted correctly,and everything else
The timing is DEAD ON to where it should be firing right up
And yes we did the whole thing to make sure the cylinder was at the top and the distributor was facing the number one spark plug
thats all good. We made sure the spark plugs were getting a spark also
The gas is all filled up,everything
me and my dad are at a loss to why the car wont start
Do the heads need to be cleaned? Is the return fuel line clogged?
We just need your help. Ive had it up to here with this car. Im only 16 and this is getting ridiculous to be honest.
A little more info. Car Cranks and cranks and cranks. One time we BARELY got it running. You had to keep hitting the gas to keep her running.
Were dreading if we have to drop the gas tank.But i just want my Pheonix to rise again
Thanks for your help thirdgeners!!!
Greatly appreciated!
Also,weve done constant research on the matter with no results

 

OK - if I'm reading this right - the car ran, but poorly. You did that list of stuff, and now it won't run, right?

If that's the case, then I'd be inclined to go back and recheck the stuff you did.

Are the injectors firing? A nice steady conical shape?

Have you checked fuel pressure? You'll need an inline fuel pressure guage capable of 0psi - 40psi. You'll have to put it inline on the flexible hose for the feed line (larger line).

You checked plugs for fire, so Im assuning no breaks in the plug wires. Go back again, and recheck TDC on #1, and recheck firing order again (I know, you've done it 10 times, do it again, this time have a 3rd party not you and your dad oversee - sometimes it takes fresh eyes).

Setting timing - I assumed you unplugged the EST wire for this - is it plugged back in? Car should run with it unplugged, does it?

All vacuum lines in good shape and connected?

Sat for 10 years. Did you get any gunk out of fuel tank? Did you clean the TB unit? Did you remove the fuel feed line and make sure fuel is coming out? Same with return line? Is the fuel pump priming and running? Were there any exposed wires from mice chewing things - maybe there is one that finally broke through when you were working.

Fuses - check them? What about the fuse that's tucked in the fenderwell behind battery?

I know - this is a stupid simple list - but 99% of the time it's something stupidly simple that's overlooked. Everything you touched - disconnect and reconnect if nothing else works - could be as simple as a bad connection somewhere.

Take a few days - walk away. Like I said, fresh eyes make a world of difference. Search for a local car club (preferrably 3rd genners) and see if anyone's available to come take a peek for you. If you were at least a few states closer I'd come Maybe just anyone that has car knowledge - ask the old-timers at the local auto parts stores if there are any backyard locals around that turn wrenches on the weekends for extra income.

Never 'insist' that you did it all correctly - let a fresh set of eyes start from scratch and go through it all with you. The one thing that you don't redo because you "know you did it right" will be the one thing that needs redone.

 

Hey man thanks a TON for the info!
We just checked everything
From front to back
Nothing worked.
Even turned the timing back to 180 degrees out to see if itd work
Nothing
I think im just gonna part it out. I dont know what else to do.

 

sounds like a waste of a lot of money, you replace everything then part it out? the reason its not starting can only be a few reasons. one is it getting gas? it sat for 10 years the gas tank will prolly be full of nasty gas that will clog the fliter its like a sticky yellow gunk it the cars not starting what isnt it getting? spark or fuel? take the air filter off and crank it if no fuel its a fuel problem, if theres fuel pull a plug and ground it and set it on the car, see if you got spark

 

Is your fuel pump priming when the key is turned to ACC?

Something I forgot to do recently after setting timing..
Did you forget to loosen the distributor adjustment bolt and rotate it a slight bit advanced (5-10*) after you set the timing to TDC? Try loosening it and turning it little by little while your dad cranks the engine to see if the engine will fire.

 

sounds like a fuel issue. with a tbi you should be able to see the fuel spray from the injectors. try focusing on that.

to run you need spark, fuel, compression, and timing

you said you have spark, and you set the timing. so your down to fuel and compression

 

You can't win'em all! Very seldom do I break down and bring my car to a trustworthy shop. At least you have a bunch of new parts that probably needed replaced anyhow. If you took her first off to a shop you could have saved money and frustration by having it properly diagnosed. Most of the time doing things ourselves we win and save money. sometimes we loose........ Don't sell the car cause you got beat. Beat her back!

 

Sounds like most of the stuff you did was just normal maintenance stuff anyways. Now you need to get down to the specifics to get it running.

 

Please don't be insulted by any suggestions. The thing that bothers me is that it ran a little bit before you got into it too far, and now it doesn't run.

When you found TDC on #1, are you sure you did it at the top of the compression stroke, and not the exhaust/intake TDC?

 

Next time you do the timing take the drivers side valve cover off and watch the rockers. If you got it a tooth off you might need to twist the dizzy a good bit to get it back in time. Your close so don't give up just yet, it ran before.

 

You can't give up now dude.
You have done so much already.
From what you say is done and checked and good, It's sounding like a fuel or timing problem.
You say you have spark, but like stated, is it on fire or exhaust stroke. Easy mistake to make.
Have you tried to run it with starter fluid or manually pouring fuel into carb?
is there a smell of unburnt fuel from exhaust?
are plugs getting wet? Should be if the fuel is not burning in the cylinders.
I'll assume that you checked that you have compression. If not check for it.
Keep posting up and help will be given. Just don't give up.

 

Alright guys i kept to it and im still problem solving!
Thanks for all of your help and input,its greatly appreciated!
I reread all you guys said and kinda had a little brain blast Haha
The carb. Ever since day one the carbs been acting up
So i got that off today and took it apart.
Sure enough from the car sitting, the intake manifold and half the carb was burned and rusted out. Burned because of the engine being 180 degrees out before,the engine had some Mini-type fires going on inside the air breather. All of the gaskets were rotted out and shot.Some actually just gone for no apparent reason. The gasket that sits on the bottom of the carb was completely burnt and looked like charcoal. i was looking at the intake manifold and u can see where the carb wasnt sealed and major amounts of air got through. Bad. So day i bought a carb rebuild kit,but it didnt come with the TBI Fuel Pressure Regulator Spring. After reading various threads on here i thought for sure the spring would be tore apart, but surprisingly it was okay. But i still purchased another one just to be safe off of Mr.Gasket. $12.50 for that and 42.95 for the rebuild kit. Cant beat that! Im about 100 percent sure this WILL fix the problem!

 

Sounds like you WILL make progress when you rebuild the carb.
I'm curious as to why it would run, albeit poorly, before anything you did also. Now it does not. Most probably disturbed something in there to finally kill the carb altogether. I hope that fixes it for you.
I totally side with what's quoted above.
Be 300% sure on timing.
Good luck with it man.

 

hey man i know you may have found the problem but just in case u havent hopefully this might help.
its a little weird but it worked on my 83 z 28.

ok i was havin all same symptoms, guy i got it from had timing 180 out, so i replaced everything and got it all in time the correct way with finding TDC on compression stroke and stabbing distributor with rotor pointing at number one, still car didnt start i had timing, compression, spark, and fuel but all it would do is turn over.

well after me askin bout 20 diff people and even using thirdgen website nothing worked,

but one of my buddies told me to do this.........

find TDC on compression stroke, then when i stab the distributor point it towards the NUMBER 6 CYLINDER yes number 6,,, so i did it thinkin no way this will work,

the car fired up after a few cranks and then i set timing with my timing light and it was done!!!

like i said idk if it will help but just takes a min to try.

 

hope the carb rebuild works for you. Good luck......

 

Anyone else see a problem with him trying to rebuild the carb on a TBI engine or is it just me?

 

Thanks for all the support guys! Its greatly Appreciated!
Heres an update
I wish i would have taken before and after pictures! This carb was soo bad before. Took off the carb and the gaskets were melted to it. everything was extremely dirty,and there were a ton of passages where the gaskets broke and air was getting through. Not to mention the crazy amount of carbon build up!
heres a few pics of it after some good elbow grease
The plastic box is full of just a little bit of the crap that came off of the carb. Went through 2 cans of carb cleaner!
All of the air passages that u see were filled to the brim with carbon. You couldnt see any groves and you couldnt see ANY of the silver like color

 

I'm not familiar with specific terminology of the TBI setup, but that looks kinda carb like to me. I'm sure the refurb of whatever it's name is will help in his quest for a running motor.
It all points to a fuel issue really.

We're all rootin' for ya dude.
Hope you fix it this time.
Looks like you're doing a real good job on cleaning it up and rebuilding.
Good luck

 

I'm not trying to be a wise guy here but I think it is important to not confuse terminology when trying to troubleshoot a problem like this. A carburetor is a method of fuel delivery. So is throttle body injection (TBI). You cannot have both. What you have taken pictures of here is a throttle body. This is an important difference because if you bought a carb rebuild kit then chances are something will not fit right. Also, rebuilding a carb will have a major impact on an engines performance while rebuilding a throttle body likely will not (unless there were holes in it or something) because it does not really have anything to do with fuel delivery. Let us know how it goes but I would be willing to bet that rebuilding this will not solve your problem.

 

That's not a carb; that's a TBI throttle body. You'll need to know that when you try to buy gaskets for it.

To get the ignition timing right, you need to make sure that the rotor points to #1 when the engine is at #1 firing, and NOT when it's at THE OTHER instance of #1 TDC during each engine cycle.

Remember: it's a 4-stroke engine. The strokes are Power, Exhaust, Intake, and Compression. If you start at the beginning of the Power stroke for #1, firing occurs just before the piston reaches TDC at the beginning of this stroke. The piston travels down to BDC, and reaches the bottom after the crank has turned 180° (½ revolution). Somewhere near the bottom, the exh valve opens, and remains open as the piston returns to the top. This is the Exhaust stroke. Another 180° (½ turn) of crank rotation later, 360° or one full turn later, the piston again reaches TDC, but this is NOT firing; instead, at this point the exh valve closes, and the int valve opens. The piston once again descends from TDC to BDC for 180° of crank rotation, this time drawing in fresh air/fuel mixture, creating the Intake stroke; as it reaches the bottom and begins to return to the top, the int valve closes, and the mixture is compressed, making it the Compression stroke. 2 full turns of the crank, and therefore 2 instances of TDC later, the engine has now once again reached #1 firing.

Different cylinders fire every 90° of crank rotation, in the order 18436572. As you can see, #6 fires 360° after #1, when #1 is at the instance of TDC where the exh valve is closing and the int is opening. If the distributor is 180° out of phase, then it will send spark to EVERY cylinder when each exh valve is just closing, instead of at the end of the compression stroke.

To make sure you're at the correct instance of #1 TDC (the one that's #1 firing), remove the fuel pump relay if the lines are still disconnected from the TB, the dist, and the #1 spark plug; put your thumb over the plug hole and have someone BUMP the starter over until you feel compression; turn the engine BY HAND until it's at about the point you want it to fire, MOVING IT ONLY IN THE FORWARD DIRECTION and not turning it backwards (like, set it to where the timing marks are at 10° BTDC); and drop the dist into the block with the rotor pointed about 15° clockwise from directly to the driver's side. As you drop it in, the shaft will rotate clockwise, because of the curvature of the teeth on the gears. As it reached the bottom, the rotor will end up pointing just to the driver's side of straight ahead. If it doesn't go all the way down, have your helper BUMP the starter while you GENTLY hold the dist down; eventually it will come into alignment with the oil pump drive rod, and drop the rest of the way in. Continue to BUMP the starter until it approaches #1 firing again. Turn the engine by hand until the marks are at 10° BTDC, and rotate the dist body until the little star wheel teeth down in there line up with each other. Put the cap on, and the plug wires on the cap, with #1 at the front driver's side, and the rest in the 18436572 order, clockwise around the cap.

Don't expect cleaning the TB to have any effect on whether it will run or not. That WILL NOT cause a no-start, unless it's SO BAD that no fuel can be delivered. A runs-like-crap, yes; a no-start, no. Once you get the dist positioned correctly by the above technique, hook everything back up, and turn the key to "on" (NOT "start"), and listen for the fuel pump to prime. Turn the key back to "off", wait 5 seconds, turn it back to "on". Turn it back "off". Do this about 6 times. Then try to start it. You should see fuel spraying from the injectors. If you don't, spray some starting fluid into the TB, or pour an ounce or so of gas down in there, and try again.

If it starts after you put fuel in but won't start on its own or won't stay running, you have a fuel delivery problem. At that point, LEAVE THE IGNITION SYSTEM ALONE, ESPECIALLY THE TIMING, because it is now RIGHT and you are DONE WITH IT; and figure out why you have no fuel. Engines need 3 things to run: compression, spark at the right time, and air'fuel mixture in reasonable proportion. 3 "magic ingredients". If any one is missing, the car will not run. Working on something else (spark, let's say) will not fix it, if the problem is REALLY fuel related. Break it up into the 3 ingredients; isolate which one is missing; and direct your attention to that one EXCLUSIVELY. DO NOT get caught up in a bunch of tail-chasing and just messing with everything ESPECIALLY THE TIMING because all you will do is make a mess which you will than have to go back and straighten up. FOCUS on the missing ingredient.

 

its a fuel injected carb,i know this
I bought the gasket rebuild kit for it
I cleaned the carb half with carb cleaner and the fuel injectors are sitting on the side.

 

Then you know WRONG.

It is NOT a carb. It has nothign to do with a carb, except that it vaguely resembles one, and is a wet-flow intake system. But it is FUEL INJECTION, not a carb; specifically, it is Throttle-Body Injection (TBI).

It helps to always get the terminology RIGHT. That way, you're not standing at the parts counter asking for something that doesn't exist; or asking questions about one thing and getting answers for something COMPLETELY ELSE that you don't have; and so on. Learn, improve, and get better at what you are doing, instead of arguing.

 

Didn't even put 2 and 2 together, Damn beer ..... Good luck just the same!

 

Im not arguing
And if i dont know what im talking about,how come advanced auto,auto zone,the GM dealer,and car quest knew exactly what i was talking about?
And the bottom half is essentially a carb

 

You're arguing.

Because you got lucky. They have to deal with non-technical people all the time who make up whatever description they can think of to describe something that they don't know what its real name is, and have learned, through neccessity, how to decipher mangled stuff well enough to avoid product returns.

NONE of it is a carb. A carburetor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor is a device that uses the Bernoulli Principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle to create a reduced pressure area within a restriction, called a Venturi, in the airstream, to "suck" gasoline into the airstream. It's the same principle that makes an airplane wing work. You don't have that. Your car doesn't work that way. Instead, you have electronic fuel injection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_fuel_injection which does not work acording to that principle but rather relies on an electronically controlled valve, called an injector, to pass a computer-calculated and metered amount of pressurized fuel into the airstream. The specific variety of EFI that you have is throttle-body injection, in which the injectors are mounted on top of the throttle body. This system lacks the particular feature that makes a thing a carburetor; specifically, a venturi.

Quit arguing.

 

No one here is really arguing with you either. But you must understand, if we don't know exactly what you have, then we can't tell you things to try to fix your problems. If you go telling someone you have a carb when you don't, then YOU get all the wrong advise. Since we spend our time free of any costs to anyone but ourselves to try and lead fellow 3rd genners down the right path to troubleshooting and correcting issues that they need help with, we do need the RIGHT TERMINOLOGY - because 99.99% of us know that unit as a TBI - which is way different that a factory carb, or an aftermarket carb, or multiport fuel injection.

You can call it anything you like - call it Daddy if it makes you happy - but to get the right responses here and most anywhere else, you neec to call that unit a TBI.

BTW - 90% of folks working at AZ, Advance, Dealership, Oreilly, etc. don't know the difference either - their computers all list a "carb rebuild kit" for a TBI car - so that they don't have to know. And - they don't get paid enough to start an "arguement" with you about what it's called - they get paid to give you what you ask for and take your money and get on to the next customer.

We are just trying to help you, who asked for help. In return, and all for free I might add, we only ask for correct information. And, we offer some education in the process so that the next time you walk into AZ, the 10% that might actually know the difference themselves aren't laughing at you when you walk out.

 

Oh alright i gotcha
I just always called it a fuel injected carb

 

Yes we've noticed.

We've avoided laughing behind your back, thus far.

Now's a good time to stop, and also stop telling us that that's what you've been calling it, before we start laughing at you. You're smarter than that now, now that you know what it REALLY is, and that it IS NOT IN ANY FORM OR FASHION a "carburetor".

Good luck with your TBI. Hopefully cleaning it up will help; but don't expect miracles. Most likely there is still a problem elsewhere, yet to be found, preventing the car from running.

 

thanks man
And yeah im still learning everything haha
Im only 16 and ive restored my first car without barely any knowledge of an engine lol
I learned a lot from my dad though, hes worked on over 345 cars,and hes not a mechanic ahha

 

Had a hard time reading this thread. It comes up two screens wide on my monitor. Have to scan back and forth. What a pain. Glad sofakingdom got you straightened out on the difference between carb and TBI. Hearing the uninformed talk about the "carb" on their late eighties GM car drives me nuts. Sorry, but I was laughing just a little. BTW, if the guys at AZ thought it was okay for you to call your TB a carb it's because they dont know anything about cars. They are parts pushers. Be careful taking advice from them.

You say your engine was running rich. You may have issues with the coolant temp sensor. It's a two wire sensor in the front of the intake manifold, just beside the thermostat housing. You could also have a shorted O2 sensor. You may have had a plugged vacuum port to the MAP sensor. Hopefully cleaning the TB will solve that. You could also have wiring or engine mechanical trouble. You need to test to verify which it is.

Dont feel bad about replacing all those parts. Most of them were maintenance items. I have a few questions though. What is a pressure unit? In 35 years as a GM tech and drivability specialist, I haven't heard of this. How did you adjust the smog pump relay? BTW, there is no smog pump relay. So what did you adjust? This car is 22 years old and sat for 10. Don't fix the plug wires, replace them.

My advice at this point is find a factory service manual for that car. They're published by Helm's Publishing and can be ordered online. It's like a bible. Since your dad seems to know a little he should be able to make sense of the book. If you can understand it, it will provide you with an invaluable education on that car and how to diagnose and repair it.

 

Yes check the coolant temp senser. I had the same issue with my Z running rich and flooding its self out. Turn out to be the coolant temp senser. Its about a $10 part and can cause you to pull your hair out. And some of us do not have much hair left.

 

ITS ALIVE!!!
Guys its finally DONE!
Got the carb back on tonight. Cleaned the EGR valve and rechecked EVERYTHING
Cranked it,and BAM
Shes running again!!
Like a beast!! Im soo happy!!

 

congrats
Nice feeling eh?

 

^ X's 2

 

You know the guys are gonna' give you hell about the carb comment.......

 

One more time: ITS NOT A CARB!!! Its a Throttle Body Injector. It has very little in common with a carburetor and operates on an entirely different principle. As you were already told, calling it a carb makes you sound like an idiot to anyone who knows anything about fuel injected cars. So stop it!

 

ahahaha i know i just did it to **** everyone off haha

 

grats on the rebuild