moneyz1

I never new why chevy kept letting the firebird look exactly like the camaro didn't that take a lot of the money they could made away in the car market I don't get how they allowed that to happen and when exactly it did start just always wanted to no and witch car is better ?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Quite the opposite... in mass production, it COSTS money to make things different.

Pretty much, the day Pontiac saw the design that Chevy had come up with to compete against the brand-new Frod product named "Mustang", and demanded from the higher-ups at GM that Chevrolet hand over the platform drawings to them and that they be allowed to "create" their own version, to be built from the same chassis parts on the same production lines in the same plants; would have happened in maybe 65 or VERY early 66, since they did it from the introduction of the Camaro and Firebird in 67 up until their demise in 2002

Neither, really; they're EXACTLY the same car with only very minor detail differences especially the 3rd & 4th gen ones where the drivetrains were all the same, you just pick which one's options and "styling" (sticker package) you like better, and of course pay a little extra for the Pontiac version (which is how they made back what they otherwise lost by making 2 different versions of the same car).

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Looks like they didnt make 2 much of the money back being that ponitac is no longer being made.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Couldn't say how much of that, if any, the Firebird was responsible for...

But the same situation existed throughout the GM product line. Virtually every car platform had 4 or 5 brand-name versions, which are/were basically identical except for the stickers and the dealer network. That cost them ALOT of money to sustain. That's why Pontiac and Olds no longer exist. It had been A LONG TIME, going back decades before the Camaro/Firebird product even existed, since the divisions offered anything truly different from each other. They've trimmed that back some, but there's still room; Chevy/GMC trucks for example. The ONLY reason GMC still exists is because of the dealer network: check on your state's laws regarding franchises (which is what a car dealership is, legally, just like McDonalds or Servicemaster or something) and you'll see, it's VERY VERY HARD for the "parent" company to unilaterally abolish them. That's something that GM SHOULD HAVE done, IMO, while they were in bakruptcy, the way Xler did. It'll come back to haunt em someday.

camaronewbie

It's in all the car brands. Look at a Ford Crown Vic and a Mercury Marquis. Just about every car has a "sister car". Just about every Chevy has a Pontiac or Olds or Buick "sister" - like the Monte Carlo (Chevy), the Cutlass (Olds), the Grand National (Buick) (I know, GN was a package, but don't remember for what car name). Same with Ford. Chevy Blazer vs. GMC Jimmy vs. Olds Brevada. Even still today. And even across brands - like the Dodge Conquest & the Mitsubishi Starion - same car, subtle differences - Dodge partnered with Mitsu - both had Japan and US parts in one car. Mazda & Ford - same thing - Ford Explorer and Mazda Navajo, Ford Courier and Mazda B-series trucks.

Create one "mold", and change subtle "add-ons" means way less production costs - the "lost cash" from any project is in the design - design once, change a few cosmetics, and you have 3 cars with different look, but same "mold/design" cost.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yup...

And Frod has turfed Mercury, and Xler has turfed Plymouth recently and turfed Desoto back in the 50s and the rest of AMC except for Jeep since they bought that. I'm not real sure what they were thinking when they started private-labelling DSMs, one label for each dealer network. You could go to Misstoobitchy and buy an Eclipse, to Eagle (AMC) and buy a Talon, to Dodge and buy a Daytona, and to Plymouth and buy a .... what was it? I'm drawing a blank... and peel off the stickers and park them side by side and not be able to tell them apart except by the VIN.

The days of everybody buying basically the same CAR and then "market segmentation" being defined by "styling cues" has largely come to an end. Should have been done AT LEAST 40 years earlier. Unfortunately the laws on franchises being what they are, it's basically impossible for a mfr to discontinue a product line which in turn discontinues its franchises (dealerships), without offering them a substitute of equal or greater value... clearly impossible. Which in the long run, cutting out all that fat is a good thing; given that it costs less to buy 100,000 of some part and label it "Chevy" than it does to buy 80,000 of that part and then 20,000 of the same part that's exactly the same except completely different and put a "Pontiac" label on it, and that cost eventually makes its way to the consumer without delivering A DIME of actual VALUE. Cutting out all that waste is a productive and healthy development.

The GN was a Regal, which was formerly a sub-model of the Century, which was formerly the Skylark.

{edit} Ah-hah! blinding flash of the obvious: the Plymouth Eclipse was called the Laser.

ckelton

I see a very distinctive difference between Camaros and Firebirds. From the hood, fenders, doors, and complete rear end.

Fenders is whats killing me right now, im looking to replace my right front fender and camaro's fenders are a dime a dozen and in great shape but completely different. Every Firebird fender i located is damaged...Horrible

I think its a f-body owner thing to notice the complete differences. Pontiac is Pontiac, and Chevy is Chevy built differently in separate factories, just using the same basic designs. Gm just provided the drivetrain that you will find in almost every GM product.

texascat2

Firebirds are better looking! They look nothing like a Camaro, more streamlined.

Gumby

I tihnk the OP was dropped as a baby

Red 87 GTA

imo, firebirds look like they are simply faster cars (though they re the same). they look very streamline and have a much nicer interior. plus when you are in a firebird you feel like you are one with it in a camaro you feel like you are on top of it. just my opinion (please dont get t-off or start arguing about it is just my opinion)

Gumby

The 4th gen even more so

The Poncho's are bad and mean



The Bowtie's front end looks like fish lips with a bad botoix job.



the 5th gen saved the design of the Camaro and brought it back to reality.
If they had kept up the same design as the 4th gen, it would of been a let down.

Red 87 GTA

fourth gen camaros looked almost like commuter cars but the birds looked meaner. when it is thought about the firebird while contains same drive train and chassis that is where it ends. they have different fender nose and rear end design and different suspension packages. the firebirds also have about an extra grand in the interior including a much more integrated dash, consoles, much nicer power seats in the high end packages ect. And it is because of this that the firebirds sold less than the camaros because of more expensive styling and the amount of extra options which made the bird much more diferent between models which made it much more personalized compared to the camaro's cookie cutter styling similarities. So even though the two even tough extremely similar in the drive train they fit two different classes of car one is very customizable and more expensive and the other not so custom and cost less

moneyz1

I always thought the camaro looked better not saying firebirds ulgy cuz not but I think camaros are better but I deff agree that the 4(h gen camaro was horrible it was the worste body style the camaro had the firebrids 4th gen was killen the camaros but the new camaro are fresh I hope the rumors I been hearing are true and they make a new gen firebird u guys ever think we will?

Red 87 GTA

pontiac is gone so unless they get readopted there wont be one. and though it is horible to admit it because pontiac is gone all third and fourth gen birds spiked in value making it more expensive to restore em too.

ckelton

Doubtful, but I will be buying a new camaro with Firebird body kit. Not too crazy, something with the 3rd-gen style though, as they are by far my favorite.

Gumby

GM left room for specialty vehicles, which probably won’t happen till they are secure on their path. Just like how they nuked the Camaro for a long while.

moneyz1

Gm would be smart to make a new firebird that new body style is great they would def catchtchot of buzz

Red 87 GTA

also for instance the 87 gta only sold 11,102 while the iroc-Z28 sold 38,889. so the firebird is much more rare and expensive

DeltaElite121

Do a grille delete and they start looking a whole lot more appealing. For example:

Red 87 GTA

doing this before they re-adopt Pontiac would be like a catch 22 its a firebird but made by Chevy. it would catch attention but hard boiled Pontiac fans would shun it as not a true firebird and would not buy it so thats why gm has not marketed a new firebird. there have been 2010 concepts which are stupid because they are basically chopped up camaros with a split grill and trans am written on the front seats.
If they were to make a new firebird they would need the Pontiac team to sit down and recreate the 70s smoky cars with a low profile streamline look that does not resemble the new camaro at all. and maybe even a Pontiac 455

DeltaElite121

The Firebreather is a nice blend of both. I'd buy one if I made that kind of money considering I think the new Camaro is disgusting.

texascat2

Yes! Now we're talking! 455 Poncho!

moneyz1

The new camaros are goof bu my fave camaros will always be the 60s camaros and the third gen

jharrison5

GM is the largest car manufacturer in the world their brands are Chevy, GMC, pontiac, buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Saturn, Geo, Saab, Holden, hummer, Vauxhall, Opel, and Isuzu. They are also share holders of Suzuki, Fiat, and Daewoo. That is a lot of 3.8 V6 and 350 V8 engines and the reason everything looks the same. In business you stop carrying the brands that do not sell.

Sparkytfl

Front of a late 4th camaro looked like a chrysler. I think they had much nicer back ends than the birds though. Pontiac seemed to love those round rears in the late 90s. I had both types last decade, and always wished I could have had front half firebird, back half camaro, and the firebird interior which I liked better.

For 3rd gens, Birds will always be my choice.

84CAMARO28inFL

Off top of my head, for 5:

1) Chevy Trailblazer
2) GMC Envoy
3) Isuzu Ascender (!)
4) Saab 9-7X
5) (Oldsmobile Bravada, certain overseas markets)
.. im forgetting one.. 1) Saab, 2) Isuzu, 3) Chevy, 4) GMX, hmm yep 5) Oldsmobile, certain markets.

1) Pontiac PARISIENNE
2) Buick LE SABRE
3) Olds DELTA 88
4) Chevy CAPRICE

1) Chevy CAVALIER
2) Pontiac SUNFIRE

ummm...

1) Olds 88
2) Pontiac BONNEVILLE
3) Buick LESABRE

need i go on?

So the last Pontiac was in 2002, huh. it was lookign rpetty ugly by then.

Sometimes i look at the car from a certain angle, and im -amazed- at how much the front overhangs the front wheels.. i HATE 4th gens for that reason alone. And they ooked rather ugly, 4th gens. Firebird in particular, SOME camaros looked "OK" until the wheel angle.

Knight Rider, anyone? Cool K.I.T.T. And it had LEATHER!

Maybe that was a 305 TPI, idk if they had "Formula" or if that was a "Trans Am"

84CAMARO28inFL

Its down to Buick, Chevy, GMC, and Cadillac.

Scratch Geo (made into Chevy I asked myself same thing,) OLDSMOBILE (lasted till 04,) PONTIAC, Saturn, HUMMER, ISUZU off list (That is six..) SAAB (Seven) DAEWOO (8, still sold as that in China) and even the Daewoos still lurking in Chevy lineup are dying (Saturn Aura, Uplander, Aveo.)

Suzuki should die out idk why they didnt watch for the 2011 "Swift"

Daewoo was DEBACLE

Fiat was Chrysler they AR ENOT coming back to AMERICA In 2011!

HTH.

84CAMARO28inFL

If that l=blue car is a firebird thats a good looking firebird.

I used to have one of THESE



Yeah, Nissan.. for comparative purposes. Maybe my Camaro will be all this car could be... im not sure yet. MAYBE. Or ill add a Nissan to it, as a sister

84CAMARO28inFL

BUMBLEBEE!!!



TRANSFORM!!!!

Red 87 GTA

why couldn't they just clean bumblebe up and make it show its true beauty rather than change it to that THING. just saying id rather drive a beat up nasty 60s T/A or Camaro than the new one.

texascat2

Yes it's a Firebird, check my signature. Thank you. Your Camaro could be a lot more then the Nissan. How many classic Nissan's do you see? Not much of collector car.

84CAMARO28inFL

If we make a kit to make that cartoonish Transformers car look like a 60s or "Smoky and the Bandit" T/A we could make some $$$$$ or even $$$$$$ lets DO it :!

quickkris2006

iTrader: (2)

They already have I have pics ill post later that I took at gm nationals this past year

Gumby

you wanna make money and inspire someone, take the bumble bee toy, 2nd or 5th gen and make a full size version of the toy that can transform.

texascat2

58mark

iTrader: (3)

love this thread

I love the brand crossover list from an earlier post, but you forgot the most laughable line... from 1985-1988, GM produced all of these cars at the same time... all based on the J platform..

Cadillac Cimarron
Oldsmobile Firenza
Buick Skyhawk
Chevrolet Cavalier
Pontiac Sunbird

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Except that the earlier Sunbird was also known as the J-2000... :edit: And it was funny how my parents owned 3 of those J's... Started with a Skyhawk that went belly up real quick (engine block cracked under NORMAL driving!), moved to a Firenza wagon, and then to a 4-door Cavalier.

From 88-96, W-platform:
Buick Regal
Chevy Beretta/Lumina (depending on coupe or sedan)
Olds Cutlass Supreme
Pontiac Grand Prix

96-whenever:
Regal
Lumina/Monte Carlo, and then either the Malibu or the Impala after the Lumina was dropped (can never remember which)
(whichever replaced the Cutlass... Maybe the Alero?)
Grand Prix

I could go on with N-bodies, etc... But then, speaking a little newer, we have the Caddy XLR (or whatever that thing was) sharing the Vette platform (yikes!).

Everything is a rebadged Chevy nowadays at GM... Except those cars that have their own lines like the SSR, HHR, Aveo... (unless those happen to have one of the foreign divisions for sister cars). I keep wondering when GM is going to ditch Buick and GMC... Guess I'll have to keep wishing there.

As for OP, well, you can't completely redesign a car on a specific frame just to fit another brand name. That would be ridiculous.

Gumby

We know the toy version of the car can turn into a robot, just scale it up, add some hydrolics and a engine.......

texascat2

And......shaaazam!