ok here's my question. when you line up the cam and crank sprockets dots, do you have them at 12 and 6 (upper at 6, lower at 12) or 12 and 12? i use 12 and 6 personally. my other question is when i have them lined up with my #1 cylinder at TDC, when my balancer is on, it reads that it is advanced ~12 degrees. which when i look at the #1 cylinder that reading is right but if i go by my timing gear marks it says #1 is at TDC. then when i move the balancer to 0 degrees with my timing mark my #1 is dead on at TDC, so how is that right because is if i removed my timing chain cover and looked at my timing marks they wont be in line anymore? i just dont understand it, my previous builds did that same thing and they ran great. there's no way they were off 12 degrees. we actually even degree the cam last night and it was off like .5 degrees lol. so im lost, why is it like that? or am i doin this wrong?

 

The cam gear dot is supposed to be at 6:00, the crank gear dot is supposed to be at 12:00. At that point, the front driver's-side piston should be at top center. If not, there's a problem. If so, move on to the damper and timing tab.
If it's within a couple of degrees, great. If not, either buy an adjustable timing tab, or try another damper.

 

Probably there is some inaccuracy - either your balancer outer ring has slipped a bit, or your timing tab is not in quite the right spot.

To be completely accurate, you should find true tdc with a piston stop. Then put a new mark on the balancer to match the tab, or bend/reposition the tab to match the balancer mark.

 

ok. i usually just remark my balancer, but i was always curious on why or how it ends up this way. so basically 6 and 12 o'clock and #1 at TDC, then mark or adjust the timing mark on the balancer or the pointer as needed? just out of curiousity, lets say the cam and crank gears are lined up 6 and 12 o'clock. the cam was dialed in using the intake centerline method and it's right were its supposed to be. (with the heads off) you put balancer on and you timing pointer is at 10-12 degrees advanced, then you look at the #1 piston and its not quite at TDC (its about 10-12 advanced like the pointer indicates). but you hand turn the crank to put the balancer at 0 degrees and your #1 piston hits the piston stop dead on? is that right? i dont think it is, but is this possible?

 

What timing set are you using?

 

When the piston is at TDC, the timing marks should line up. Period. If they don't, the marks are wrong. Doesn't matter what some engine seemed to run like wherever its timing happened to be set, wrong is just .... wrong.

When the cam dot is at 6:00 and the crank dot is at 12:00, the engine is at THE OTHER instance of #1 TDC during the engine cycle BESIDES #1 firing. Specifically, it's at the end of the #1 exh stroke (exh valve finishing closing) and the beginning of the int stroke (int valve just opening). At the same time, the cyl 4 cyls away in the firing order, #6, is firing. If you turn the crank exactly one turn from there, the crank dot will again be at 12:00 (duh), the #1 piston will also be at TDC (duh again), but THIS time, it will be #1 firing, and #6 valves changinf over instead.

Now that you know that your timing mark is wrong, fix it. Line the engine up PERFECTLY at #1 TDC (either instance, it doesn't matter), and cut a groove in the damper with a hack saw or cutoff wheel and fill it with white paint. Or, just go buy a new one; the fact that the ring has slipped is pretty much a sign that it's toast, anyway.

 

It doesn't matter whether you do it with the cam gear at 6 or 12, because as you finish adjusting all the rocker nuts, you'll then turn the crank until you see the #1 intake rocker closing, then turn the crank more until the damper mark lines up with the timing tab. Then you know that #1 is supposed to be firing.
When you prime the oil pump, turn the crank 720 degrees, then you're back to #1 firing.

 

No. When the piston hits the piston stop is not tdc.

It sounds like you are trying to use the sprocket dots to determine tdc -why? You can't do this with any degree of accuracy. It's also ****-about... you want to put the crank at tdc first, so it's in the right position to put the cam sprocket on. The dots are a rough indicator that you've engaged the correct teeth.

 

its a comp cam double roller timing set. my damper and pointer is right. my #1 is at TDC and the balancer is at 0. so im guessing my timing set is off some? im going to try a different set and see what happens. so what would you recommend tryin to figure out first? set my #1 at TDC and install my crank gear at 12 o'clock? thx for all the responses guys.

 

What's the part number?

 

A piston stop is designed to calculate where TDC is. Because of piston dwell, the crank will have a few degrees of rotation while the piston is still at TDC. The piston stop can never tell you when the piston itself is exactly at TDC. You need to use it with a degree wheel to calculate where TDC is.

Make sure the rockers are removed from the cylinder that the piston stop is in or the valves will hit the stop and damage it. Using a piston stop and a degree wheel, you rotate the crank in one direction until the piston hits the stop. Using something like a coat hanger for a pointer on the degree wheel, you take a reading. You can have it pointed anywhere on the wheel. You then rotate the crank around in the other direction until it hits the stop again and take another reading on the degree wheel.

Half the amount of degrees from stop to stop is TDC. Remove the piston stop and rotate the crank until the coat hanger pointer is pointing at that half way point. The piston is now exactly at TDC.

NOW you can look at the timing mark and pointer on the balancer. If they're not lined up, then you need to correct that problem. The easiest way is with an adjustable timing pointer. You can also redegree the balancer with some timing tape.

 

ok, the heads are off right now. its on a motor stand actually. we'll use a degree wheel and find TDC on #1 and go from there. if i have anymore questions ill post again.

 

With the heads off, a simple piston stop is a piece of metal bolted down into a head bolt hole and a simple bolt attached to the metal that goes into the cylinder. The goal is to stop the piston from actually reaching TDC so the dwell isn't an issue. It just needs to stop the piston 1/2-1/4" from the top. Just as long as the metal is heavy enough that when the piston touches the bolt, it doesn't move.

 

yea thats what we we're actually using for a piston stop. im sorry i forget to mention that the heads were off during this discussion. that would've helped lol.