Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
07-02-2012, 06:35 PM
#101
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: fremont oh
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 85 built ta
Engine: 350 vortec roller .040 517 lift how
Transmission: 700r4 2800 stall
Axle/Gears: stock 291 need 411
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
thats cool wish u all the luck you can assemble the motor ypur self just use plastic gauge to check it and double check the tq i usally tq the bottom end 3 or 4 times just to make sure u roll the motor over 1 rev after every piston u tq and after doin crank if it spins ez its right its not rockert science just take ur time the 1st time its overwhelming just wondering if its right now after doin it for 35 years i still check my tq 3or 4 times the marine motors usally spin 5000 all day long an they last if u keep the motor under 6500 it will not give u any trouble
07-02-2012, 07:03 PM
#102
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
You should zero-deck it, regardless of "compression"... that's only one part of the reason for doing that. The main reason is to get the "quench" or "squish" right: such that the piston gets to within .040" or so of the head "deck" surface (the part that's not the chamber), which promotes better burning without detonation, by causing the cyl contents to be violently shot toward the center just at the moment of truth, instead of staying all spread out all over the whole volume. Allows SUBSTANTIALLY more aggressive tuning.
Most people who have measured Vortec heads seem to report about 62cc as the typical chamber volume.
That Crane is WAY too much cam for comfortable street driving.
Personally I'd stick with the 60103.
Most people who have measured Vortec heads seem to report about 62cc as the typical chamber volume.
That Crane is WAY too much cam for comfortable street driving.
Personally I'd stick with the 60103.
What do you think about the RHS heads sofa? I've read that they're supposed to out flow the vortechs and run about $70 more for the pair.
http://www.competitionproducts.com/R...fo/RHS12317K1/
And yes, I was still thinking about sticking with the 60103. What do you think about the specs of the Howards cam I put in my last post? Smaller lift and more duration. Maybe still too much?
07-02-2012, 07:05 PM
#103
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,046
Received 1,668 Likes
on
1,266 Posts
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
can't the .040" quench be achieved via a combination of piston deck height and head gaskets?
At some point, you get around to realizing that one way or another, doing it right simply has a cost... but OTOH, taking risks has a cost too. Usually higher than the cost of doing it right. You just don't notice it right away because it's still slightly in the future. But when the future turns into the present, and those costs come due, .... it's not alot of fun. Blown head gaskets on an already-built motor, that now can't be "repaired" (decked) without a tear-down, are AHELLUVALOT more pain than the cost of decking.
I don't really have an opinion on the RHS heads. Never had any experience with em.
07-02-2012, 07:16 PM
#104
Supreme Member
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Sure... problem is, those thinner gaskets require more precise surfaces to keep from failing, and then if you're going to get the block decked anyway just so you can somewhat less unsafely use a more fragile gasket, why not deck it more and use the more robust one.
At some point, you get around to realizing that one way or another, doing it right simply has a cost... but OTOH, taking risks has a cost too. Usually higher than the cost of doing it right. You just don't notice it right away because it's still slightly in the future. But when the future turns into the present, and those costs come due, .... it's not alot of fun. Blown head gaskets on an already-built motor, that now can't be "repaired" (decked) without a tear-down, are AHELLUVALOT more pain than the cost of decking.
I don't really have an opinion on the RHS heads. Never had any experience with em.
At some point, you get around to realizing that one way or another, doing it right simply has a cost... but OTOH, taking risks has a cost too. Usually higher than the cost of doing it right. You just don't notice it right away because it's still slightly in the future. But when the future turns into the present, and those costs come due, .... it's not alot of fun. Blown head gaskets on an already-built motor, that now can't be "repaired" (decked) without a tear-down, are AHELLUVALOT more pain than the cost of decking.
I don't really have an opinion on the RHS heads. Never had any experience with em.
Thanks for that. My understanding is that the shim gaskets, as in the .015" variety (rubber coated or otherwise) can be fussy regarding untrue head or deck surfaces. The same can be said with dissimilar materials as in aluminum heads and iron blocks due to the different ratges of expansion.
The Victor Reinz .025" graphite compostion gasket has excellent sealing properties and is more forgiving. It's also recommended for aluminum heads.
Sean,
For the record, the RHS heads are far beyond the Vortecs in many repsects. It would take many hours in the hands of a skilled head porter to achieve the same flow numbers. Be sure to go for the 2.02/1.6 valve combination as they're available in smaller valve sizes too.
07-02-2012, 08:01 PM
#105
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Sure... problem is, those thinner gaskets require more precise surfaces to keep from failing, and then if you're going to get the block decked anyway just so you can somewhat less unsafely use a more fragile gasket, why not deck it more and use the more robust one.
Sean,
For the record, the RHS heads are far beyond the Vortecs in many repsects. It would take many hours in the hands of a skilled head porter to achieve the same flow numbers. Be sure to go for the 2.02/1.6 valve combination as they're available in smaller valve sizes too.
For the record, the RHS heads are far beyond the Vortecs in many repsects. It would take many hours in the hands of a skilled head porter to achieve the same flow numbers. Be sure to go for the 2.02/1.6 valve combination as they're available in smaller valve sizes too.
I think I read in research that the RHS cast iron heads are supposed to be better than the GM Vortechs. But I just want to be sure.Another thing, when it comes to the intake. I had posted the Edelbrock 7516 performer RPM air gap. They say they specifically fit Vortechs. Will I need to find a different style to fit these? I found these on Summitracing for more info, but it didn't say anything. Should I just get the regular styled performer rpm air gap?
07-02-2012, 08:23 PM
#106
Supreme Member
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
If you find that the cost of the decking is unreasonable, the aforementioned Victor Reinz gasket is more than capable of handling the sealing duties. I've used dozens in many builds with zero failures.
Having re-read your post, with your deck at 9.010", the .025" gasket gets the quench to .035" which is running the ragged edge. I can't say whether or not you could pull that off so decking may be your only answer if .040" is a must.
Regarding the RHS heads, my experience is with the Pro Torker which they no longer make. Or the ones you're interested in for that matter. RHS doesn't have a cast iron head under the Pro Action name anymore. Check out this link for flow numbers.
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Inf...FlowCharts.asp
I've got the Vortec version of the RHS heads because I had invested in Vortecs in the first place. If you haven't ordered anything then the choice is yours. Check those flow charts and look to see what the difference might from one style of head to the other. There all in there.
Having re-read your post, with your deck at 9.010", the .025" gasket gets the quench to .035" which is running the ragged edge. I can't say whether or not you could pull that off so decking may be your only answer if .040" is a must.
Regarding the RHS heads, my experience is with the Pro Torker which they no longer make. Or the ones you're interested in for that matter. RHS doesn't have a cast iron head under the Pro Action name anymore. Check out this link for flow numbers.
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Inf...FlowCharts.asp
I've got the Vortec version of the RHS heads because I had invested in Vortecs in the first place. If you haven't ordered anything then the choice is yours. Check those flow charts and look to see what the difference might from one style of head to the other. There all in there.
Last edited by skinny z; 07-02-2012 at 09:30 PM. Reason: re-read posting
07-03-2012, 07:44 PM
#107
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
What do you guys think about this? I still feel like I'll stick with the 60103. But the rest is interesting.
yes, you will need a different intake manifold. my advise would be to sell the vortec style one on either ebay or craigslist. they normally sell pretty easy.
then look on ebay or craigslist for a used performer rpm intake like this one
EDELBROCK INTAKE MANIFOLD SBC CHEVY 305 327 350 400 V8 PERFORMER RPM 7101 | eBay
in IMHO stay away from the air-gap intakes, do a search on this forum about them and then form your own opinion is what i would suggest.
you also mentioned not knowing what to do for a distributor, here
White Performance Detail Description
you dont have to get the clear one, they also have them in red, black, and i think blue.
and as i mentioned i would not go with the 650DP carb, it will work yes, but i dont think that mechanical secondaries is what you are looking for. i think that this carb would better suit your needs and this carb is pretty much one of if not the most popular carb that Holley ever made. they have a very good reputation for being quality. I have used 3 so far with absolutley no problems. but as with all carbs you may have to tune it once you acutally get everything put together so it suits your motor. there may be some that claim to be but not many (if any) carbs are "plug and play".
Holley 3310-2, 750cfm vacuum secondary carburetor | eBay
with the howards cam i recomended, the RHS heads, 3310 750 carb, HEI distributor, the 9.6:1 that the 64cc chambers and 18cc dished pistons will give you, and all tuned correctly is the recipe for a 425hp/450tq 383 (385 in your case) motor.
now be sure to look up quench/squish before you buy a set of head gaskets so that you get your quench @ around .040-.046".
with these 3rd gen f-bodies you will need to do some work to the suspenion and the rear to get it to hold this kind of power. I would either recomend you get a set of moser or strange axles, a better aftermarket carrier, and some stronger aftermarket rear gears. all of this will cost you around 1000.00
here:
UMI Performance 2205-B - UMI Performance Transmission Mounted Torque Arms - Overview - SummitRacing.com
UMI Performance 2019-B - UMI Performance Single Adjustable Panhard Bars - Overview - SummitRacing.com
these served me well when i had my 355
Lakewood Suspension 21700 - Lakewood Traction Action Lift Bar Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Competition Engineering C3046 - Competition Engineering Weld-On Subframe Connectors - Overview - SummitRacing.com
and then i would recomend these for the rear end
Summit Racing SUM-700118 - Summit Racing® Direct Fit Axle Shafts - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Auburn Gear Inc 542046 - Auburn Gear Pro Series Differentials - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Summit Racing SUM-741011 - Summit Racing Street & Strip® Ring and Pinion Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com
you will spend some money but you have to pay to play, when i put my 385 in my camaro (under the old set up which made 500hp/490tq) I grenaded my rearend within 3 weeks, and that was with street tires, and only giving it about 1/3-1/2 throttle. I looked into fabricating in a 9" ford rearend but once i looked into the Moser 12 bolt direct replacement rearends i found the 9" rearend was going to be more of a hassle since i already had all the suspension parts i wanted and they would bolt up to the new Moser 12 bolt rather easily where as with the 9" is was going to require a good amount of work.
good luck, i hope that all the $$$ signs you just saw that you will likely need to have a stable car didn't scare you off. take your time, do it right, and in the end you will love what you end up with.
then look on ebay or craigslist for a used performer rpm intake like this one
EDELBROCK INTAKE MANIFOLD SBC CHEVY 305 327 350 400 V8 PERFORMER RPM 7101 | eBay
in IMHO stay away from the air-gap intakes, do a search on this forum about them and then form your own opinion is what i would suggest.
you also mentioned not knowing what to do for a distributor, here
White Performance Detail Description
you dont have to get the clear one, they also have them in red, black, and i think blue.
and as i mentioned i would not go with the 650DP carb, it will work yes, but i dont think that mechanical secondaries is what you are looking for. i think that this carb would better suit your needs and this carb is pretty much one of if not the most popular carb that Holley ever made. they have a very good reputation for being quality. I have used 3 so far with absolutley no problems. but as with all carbs you may have to tune it once you acutally get everything put together so it suits your motor. there may be some that claim to be but not many (if any) carbs are "plug and play".
Holley 3310-2, 750cfm vacuum secondary carburetor | eBay
with the howards cam i recomended, the RHS heads, 3310 750 carb, HEI distributor, the 9.6:1 that the 64cc chambers and 18cc dished pistons will give you, and all tuned correctly is the recipe for a 425hp/450tq 383 (385 in your case) motor.
now be sure to look up quench/squish before you buy a set of head gaskets so that you get your quench @ around .040-.046".
with these 3rd gen f-bodies you will need to do some work to the suspenion and the rear to get it to hold this kind of power. I would either recomend you get a set of moser or strange axles, a better aftermarket carrier, and some stronger aftermarket rear gears. all of this will cost you around 1000.00
here:
UMI Performance 2205-B - UMI Performance Transmission Mounted Torque Arms - Overview - SummitRacing.com
UMI Performance 2019-B - UMI Performance Single Adjustable Panhard Bars - Overview - SummitRacing.com
these served me well when i had my 355
Lakewood Suspension 21700 - Lakewood Traction Action Lift Bar Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Competition Engineering C3046 - Competition Engineering Weld-On Subframe Connectors - Overview - SummitRacing.com
and then i would recomend these for the rear end
Summit Racing SUM-700118 - Summit Racing® Direct Fit Axle Shafts - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Auburn Gear Inc 542046 - Auburn Gear Pro Series Differentials - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Summit Racing SUM-741011 - Summit Racing Street & Strip® Ring and Pinion Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com
you will spend some money but you have to pay to play, when i put my 385 in my camaro (under the old set up which made 500hp/490tq) I grenaded my rearend within 3 weeks, and that was with street tires, and only giving it about 1/3-1/2 throttle. I looked into fabricating in a 9" ford rearend but once i looked into the Moser 12 bolt direct replacement rearends i found the 9" rearend was going to be more of a hassle since i already had all the suspension parts i wanted and they would bolt up to the new Moser 12 bolt rather easily where as with the 9" is was going to require a good amount of work.
good luck, i hope that all the $$$ signs you just saw that you will likely need to have a stable car didn't scare you off. take your time, do it right, and in the end you will love what you end up with.
07-03-2012, 08:34 PM
#108
Supreme Member
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Six of one, a half dozen of the other. Vortec or otherwise, it won't make too much difference once you've made the move to the aftermarket.
n IMHO stay away from the air-gap intakes, do a search on this forum about them and then form your own opinion is what i would suggest.
This I don't understand as the Air Gap is BY FAR the best two plane manifold going. Doesn't seem to matter much who makes it or so it seems. Hood clearence is the only issue I can think of.
you also mentioned not knowing what to do for a distributor, here
No comment. As long as you have a vacuum advance, some means to limit the mechanical advance and a quality module and coil, you'll be fine.
and as i mentioned i would not go with the 650DP carb,
Agreed for a street application. 750 vac sec is an excellent fit.
As for quench, if it's your objective to optimize this spec, be sure to get the right piston. A full dish will ruin your attempt at any quech. A reverse/inverse dome with a substantial quench pad is the way to go here. Otherwise it's all for nothing.
As for the rest, I won't get into it other than to ask, what are your performance objectives?
Mid 12's? 108 mph trap speed? 1.7 sec 60'? 20+ mpg on the hiway?
It's all very reachable with a very modest package. If you want to go faster then you'll have to pay more.
Last edited by skinny z; 07-03-2012 at 08:39 PM.
07-03-2012, 09:07 PM
#109
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
This I don't understand as the Air Gap is BY FAR the best two plane manifold going. Doesn't seem to matter much who makes it or so it seems. Hood clearence is the only issue I can think of.
Agreed for a street application. 750 vac sec is an excellent fit.
As for the rest, I won't get into it other than to ask, what are your performance objectives?
Mid 12's? 108 mph trap speed? 1.7 sec 60'? 20+ mpg on the hiway?
It's all very reachable with a very modest package. If you want to go faster then you'll have to pay more.
Mid 12's? 108 mph trap speed? 1.7 sec 60'? 20+ mpg on the hiway?
It's all very reachable with a very modest package. If you want to go faster then you'll have to pay more.
07-04-2012, 08:27 PM
#110
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: fremont oh
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 85 built ta
Engine: 350 vortec roller .040 517 lift how
Transmission: 700r4 2800 stall
Axle/Gears: stock 291 need 411
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
id go with the 4150 youll b happerer the car will jump nice at part thottle smash i put 50 cc squirter on my vacum but i want a double pump you can get ukon or richmond ring n pinion sets with bearing for 275 and a better carrier for 400 i,m goin for a 373 at least i,ve got to much to much topend ill never use what trans u got i got 700 n this 1 is shifting and holdin nice the last 1 lasted 3 weeks
07-04-2012, 08:34 PM
#111
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
id go with the 4150 youll b happerer the car will jump nice at part thottle smash i put 50 cc squirter on my vacum but i want a double pump you can get ukon or richmond ring n pinion sets with bearing for 275 and a better carrier for 400 i,m goin for a 373 at least i,ve got to much to much topend ill never use what trans u got i got 700 n this 1 is shifting and holdin nice the last 1 lasted 3 weeks
07-05-2012, 04:58 AM
#112
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: fremont oh
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 85 built ta
Engine: 350 vortec roller .040 517 lift how
Transmission: 700r4 2800 stall
Axle/Gears: stock 291 need 411
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
mine is only round 400 i wish i could have stroked it but im used to bbc i havent built a sbc in 20 yrs i did al the marine bbc in the cig boats and keep all the core mtrs that was aweson but didnt want to delete heater and im more then happy now other then i need a 411 or 373 u wont b dissapointed youll have plenty of power at n e rpm id like a 6sp im 53 but drive my car probly like u will i have fun lite to lite car has very nice lope to it u should really think bout a roller if u can find 400.00 the howards r good cams i like mine better then the thumper i had didnt have enuf vacum for brakes both cams were close just less dur on new 1
07-07-2012, 04:28 AM
#113
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Here are a few combos for you to consider. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...d/viewall.html
Use the 6" rods!!!!
Call Scat and order a balanced kit from them. The 9000 series crank and rods are good to 7200 RPM and if you are going with Vortec heads, use the JE SRP piston as those pistons have a quench pad designed for Vortec heads. Joe Sherman made 540HP with that botto end, those pistons and Vortec heads along with a special single pattern cam ground on 106 LSA along with the Edelbrock Air Gap performer.
Also, make sure your cam is nitrate hardened as post 2006 oil no longer had ZDDP otherwise you will wipe a cam love very easy.
And make sure you use vacuum secondaries on your Caen otherwise your gas mileage and low end torque will be down.
You can see that the 6" rods lower friction and increase horsepower over the 5.7" rods so there's a street combo good for 476HP right there!
Use the 6" rods!!!!
Call Scat and order a balanced kit from them. The 9000 series crank and rods are good to 7200 RPM and if you are going with Vortec heads, use the JE SRP piston as those pistons have a quench pad designed for Vortec heads. Joe Sherman made 540HP with that botto end, those pistons and Vortec heads along with a special single pattern cam ground on 106 LSA along with the Edelbrock Air Gap performer.
Also, make sure your cam is nitrate hardened as post 2006 oil no longer had ZDDP otherwise you will wipe a cam love very easy.
And make sure you use vacuum secondaries on your Caen otherwise your gas mileage and low end torque will be down.
You can see that the 6" rods lower friction and increase horsepower over the 5.7" rods so there's a street combo good for 476HP right there!
07-08-2012, 08:46 PM
#114
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Ok. I think I'm going to go with this:
-The Eagle rotating assy kit I mentioned
-The RHS iron heads
-This intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7501/
-Holley 4150 DP
-Lunati 60103
-T56
-3.73 posi 12-bolt
-The oil pump setup earlier mentioned
-Head gasket 0.40" thick, probably MLS 4.060" bore?
-Distributor haven't figured out
But with that, I think I'm going to order the rot assy, heads, and intake pretty soon. Unless something on here doesn't work.
Also, if I'm missing something, which I probably am, let me know. I know I have to get a water pump, alternator, pushrods, and rockers. I'm about to fall asleep, so I probably left something out.
-The Eagle rotating assy kit I mentioned
-The RHS iron heads
-This intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7501/
-Holley 4150 DP
-Lunati 60103
-T56
-3.73 posi 12-bolt
-The oil pump setup earlier mentioned
-Head gasket 0.40" thick, probably MLS 4.060" bore?
-Distributor haven't figured out
But with that, I think I'm going to order the rot assy, heads, and intake pretty soon. Unless something on here doesn't work.
Also, if I'm missing something, which I probably am, let me know. I know I have to get a water pump, alternator, pushrods, and rockers. I'm about to fall asleep, so I probably left something out.
07-08-2012, 11:21 PM
#115
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
If you are punching out the bore to 4.060, why aren't you using the 6" rods? You're only going to really get one chance to build the bottom end. There is no re-boring again.
Also, if you're going to call Lunati for the cam, you may as well get the David Vizard spec'd DV268-06 made especially for a 383. (It's on 106 LSA/ICL so you have to advance it 4 degrees.)
Use the Comp Cam hydraulic roller tip'd 1.6' rockers.
Cam specs out at 268 Adv. 224@.50 on both intake and exhaust, and lift of 0.522 with the 1.6's.
Also, make sure that the Edelbrock intake matches the RHS heads. RHS makes Vortec style heads with regular intakes and vortec style intakes.
Also, if you're going to call Lunati for the cam, you may as well get the David Vizard spec'd DV268-06 made especially for a 383. (It's on 106 LSA/ICL so you have to advance it 4 degrees.)
Use the Comp Cam hydraulic roller tip'd 1.6' rockers.
Cam specs out at 268 Adv. 224@.50 on both intake and exhaust, and lift of 0.522 with the 1.6's.
Also, make sure that the Edelbrock intake matches the RHS heads. RHS makes Vortec style heads with regular intakes and vortec style intakes.
07-09-2012, 07:14 AM
#116
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
If you are punching out the bore to 4.060, why aren't you using the 6" rods? You're only going to really get one chance to build the bottom end. There is no re-boring again.
Also, if you're going to call Lunati for the cam, you may as well get the David Vizard spec'd DV268-06 made especially for a 383. (It's on 106 LSA/ICL so you have to advance it 4 degrees.)
Use the Comp Cam hydraulic roller tip'd 1.6' rockers.
Cam specs out at 268 Adv. 224@.50 on both intake and exhaust, and lift of 0.522 with the 1.6's.
Also, make sure that the Edelbrock intake matches the RHS heads. RHS makes Vortec style heads with regular intakes and vortec style intakes.
Also, if you're going to call Lunati for the cam, you may as well get the David Vizard spec'd DV268-06 made especially for a 383. (It's on 106 LSA/ICL so you have to advance it 4 degrees.)
Use the Comp Cam hydraulic roller tip'd 1.6' rockers.
Cam specs out at 268 Adv. 224@.50 on both intake and exhaust, and lift of 0.522 with the 1.6's.
Also, make sure that the Edelbrock intake matches the RHS heads. RHS makes Vortec style heads with regular intakes and vortec style intakes.
Also, I already have the cam. Came with lifters too.
07-09-2012, 09:08 AM
#117
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...carb-hats.html
Also what are you going to do about hood clearance?
Also what are you going to do about hood clearance?
07-09-2012, 10:01 AM
#118
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...carb-hats.html
Also what are you going to do about hood clearance?
Also what are you going to do about hood clearance?
07-09-2012, 10:34 AM
#119
Supreme Member
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
The interference is marginal. I've found several ways around it.
First thing is the standard 14" x 3" open element 2" drop base air filter housing (a smaller filter element could be used but the 14 x 3 doesn't provide any restriction to air flow as would a smaller unit). This puts the lid very close to the choke horn and isn't necessarily the best situation but it works. To make everything fit, I've trimmed the sheet metal brace on the underside of the hood. This isn't a big deal unless you place some real value on your existing hood. If that's the case you can probably find a replacement for very little cash and cut that one up.
The other route I've taken is to dent the top of the housing to conform to the brace. This isn't visually appealing so I chose to go with modifying the hood.
I've also found the K&N extreme air filter lid provides for just a little more room than the Moroso metal lid I was using.
I can probably post up a few pictures later if you're interested.
First thing is the standard 14" x 3" open element 2" drop base air filter housing (a smaller filter element could be used but the 14 x 3 doesn't provide any restriction to air flow as would a smaller unit). This puts the lid very close to the choke horn and isn't necessarily the best situation but it works. To make everything fit, I've trimmed the sheet metal brace on the underside of the hood. This isn't a big deal unless you place some real value on your existing hood. If that's the case you can probably find a replacement for very little cash and cut that one up.
The other route I've taken is to dent the top of the housing to conform to the brace. This isn't visually appealing so I chose to go with modifying the hood.
I've also found the K&N extreme air filter lid provides for just a little more room than the Moroso metal lid I was using.
I can probably post up a few pictures later if you're interested.
07-09-2012, 06:53 PM
#120
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
The interference is marginal. I've found several ways around it.
First thing is the standard 14" x 3" open element 2" drop base air filter housing (a smaller filter element could be used but the 14 x 3 doesn't provide any restriction to air flow as would a smaller unit). This puts the lid very close to the choke horn and isn't necessarily the best situation but it works. To make everything fit, I've trimmed the sheet metal brace on the underside of the hood. This isn't a big deal unless you place some real value on your existing hood. If that's the case you can probably find a replacement for very little cash and cut that one up.
The other route I've taken is to dent the top of the housing to conform to the brace. This isn't visually appealing so I chose to go with modifying the hood.
I've also found the K&N extreme air filter lid provides for just a little more room than the Moroso metal lid I was using.
I can probably post up a few pictures later if you're interested.
First thing is the standard 14" x 3" open element 2" drop base air filter housing (a smaller filter element could be used but the 14 x 3 doesn't provide any restriction to air flow as would a smaller unit). This puts the lid very close to the choke horn and isn't necessarily the best situation but it works. To make everything fit, I've trimmed the sheet metal brace on the underside of the hood. This isn't a big deal unless you place some real value on your existing hood. If that's the case you can probably find a replacement for very little cash and cut that one up.
The other route I've taken is to dent the top of the housing to conform to the brace. This isn't visually appealing so I chose to go with modifying the hood.
I've also found the K&N extreme air filter lid provides for just a little more room than the Moroso metal lid I was using.
I can probably post up a few pictures later if you're interested.
07-10-2012, 09:24 PM
#121
Supreme Member
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
If I had my choice I'd run a flat hood (because I prefer them) AND an RPM Air Gap manifold. This what I've done but there are a couple of problems with this. Hood clearence and air filter lid to choke horn interference. I'm not 100% happy with my solution as I've had to cut the hood and I also have to live with the choke horn restriction.
Visually, my Camaro is no show car, so the trimming I've done on the under hood bracing doesn't really represent much of a problem. If you didn't know what you were looking for, you may not see it. Keep in mind I have no hood insulation as does the OEM version so all my cuts are in the open. The part that concerns me most is the choke horn interference. If you're going to pursue as much power that's available with a given combination, then this represents a restriction to the ideal. There should be about an inch clearence at this point and it's not possible with this setup. If I were to pursue it to the nth degree then I would run a short cowl hood, maybe 2", AND a 4" element air filter.
That may be in the future plan but for now this is what it is.
You can see in first picture how I've trimmed away the brace. The duct tape is stuck there as part of the fabrication process. There were a few sharp edges that I didn't want hacking into my filter lid.
The second picture shows my old Moroso lid and the contacts marks from BEFORE the hood was trimmed. I've since moved on to the K&N Extreme filter lid which (I believe) alleviates the choke horn interference. If my trap speed is any indication, air flow isn't a problem.
Visually, my Camaro is no show car, so the trimming I've done on the under hood bracing doesn't really represent much of a problem. If you didn't know what you were looking for, you may not see it. Keep in mind I have no hood insulation as does the OEM version so all my cuts are in the open. The part that concerns me most is the choke horn interference. If you're going to pursue as much power that's available with a given combination, then this represents a restriction to the ideal. There should be about an inch clearence at this point and it's not possible with this setup. If I were to pursue it to the nth degree then I would run a short cowl hood, maybe 2", AND a 4" element air filter.
That may be in the future plan but for now this is what it is.
You can see in first picture how I've trimmed away the brace. The duct tape is stuck there as part of the fabrication process. There were a few sharp edges that I didn't want hacking into my filter lid.
The second picture shows my old Moroso lid and the contacts marks from BEFORE the hood was trimmed. I've since moved on to the K&N Extreme filter lid which (I believe) alleviates the choke horn interference. If my trap speed is any indication, air flow isn't a problem.
07-11-2012, 12:04 AM
#122
Supreme Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: St.Louis, IL
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 377
Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Sean, if you're going to go with a Lunati grind - call Steve @ Lunati and get his opinion. He's very straightforward and honest.. he'll steer you the right direction the first time. Also keep in mind you don't HAVE to get a shelf cam.. he can make one for you, also. Give him a call, you won't be disappointed.
07-13-2012, 07:54 PM
#123
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Sean, if you're going to go with a Lunati grind - call Steve @ Lunati and get his opinion. He's very straightforward and honest.. he'll steer you the right direction the first time. Also keep in mind you don't HAVE to get a shelf cam.. he can make one for you, also. Give him a call, you won't be disappointed.
Now about the heads matching the intake. I tried calling, but they're closed for the day. The Edlebrock 7501 says "Engine Block Style: Stock/OEM standard deck". It's too late to call anyone tonight, but does it look like the heads and intake match/fit? I don't really know what to look for. Here's the RHS description:
Features state-of-the-art technology and performance delivering "Power By Design" right out of the box. These utilize advanced airflow and cooling technology to deliver the most "out of the box" power and torque available. The unique RHS manufacturing process ensures its products meet strict tolerances and achieve superior final workmanship, something they've labled Clean Cast Technology, in order to eliminate the need for extensive after-purchase porting. As an added benefit, the refined RHS water jacket design flows much better than the competition, delivering improved heat dissipation and yielding more consistent and reliable horsepower for you! Pro Action 23-Degree Chev SB cylinder heads feature specially designed runners and combustion chambers to maximize volume, atomization and velocity. Improved valve guide material yields tighter tolerances and extended durability. Accepts 1.550-inch diameter springs and standard style rockers and valve train. Stage 1 Assemblies feature #3250 7 degree moly retainers, #4232 7 degree heat-treated valve locks, #98212 .560" lift valve springs, stainless one-piece chrome stem racing valves, guide plates, 3/8" or 7/16" ARP studs, and #5100 umbrella seals.
07-13-2012, 08:16 PM
#124
Supreme Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: St.Louis, IL
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 377
Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
I'll try giving him a call tomorrow if I find time. Been busy with work.
Now about the heads matching the intake. I tried calling, but they're closed for the day. The Edlebrock 7501 says "Engine Block Style: Stock/OEM standard deck". It's too late to call anyone tonight, but does it look like the heads and intake match/fit? I don't really know what to look for. Here's the RHS description:
Now about the heads matching the intake. I tried calling, but they're closed for the day. The Edlebrock 7501 says "Engine Block Style: Stock/OEM standard deck". It's too late to call anyone tonight, but does it look like the heads and intake match/fit? I don't really know what to look for. Here's the RHS description:
Last edited by DeltaElite121; 07-13-2012 at 08:22 PM.
07-13-2012, 08:24 PM
#125
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
I run an RPM Airgap. They're the best compromise for street/strip cars that don't want to suffer "down low" drivability issues that many of the single planes will give you. Don't run a single plane unless you want a more max effort car. Single planes are great intakes with plenty of porting options, but the RPM Airgap is the best of both worlds. I love mine.
But also, I was just talking to a guy from Summitracing on their live chat (which was pretty cool) and he said that the Edelbrock 7501 performer RPM air gap would fit the RHS's.
It's looking like tomorrow I'm going to go ahead and order, the rot assy, lighter pins, oil pump items, and intake. I might order the heads tomorrow too.
That engine looks really nice. How much room do you have under the 2 1/2"? How big is your filter?
07-14-2012, 01:57 AM
#126
Supreme Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: St.Louis, IL
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 377
Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Yea. I've heard great things about this intake + yours now. I've read that the single plane intakes are better for higher RPM builds and take away from the idle and torque from low engine speeds.
But also, I was just talking to a guy from Summitracing on their live chat (which was pretty cool) and he said that the Edelbrock 7501 performer RPM air gap would fit the RHS's.
It's looking like tomorrow I'm going to go ahead and order, the rot assy, lighter pins, oil pump items, and intake. I might order the heads tomorrow too.
That engine looks really nice. How much room do you have under the 2 1/2"? How big is your filter?
But also, I was just talking to a guy from Summitracing on their live chat (which was pretty cool) and he said that the Edelbrock 7501 performer RPM air gap would fit the RHS's.
It's looking like tomorrow I'm going to go ahead and order, the rot assy, lighter pins, oil pump items, and intake. I might order the heads tomorrow too.
That engine looks really nice. How much room do you have under the 2 1/2"? How big is your filter?
07-18-2012, 12:31 PM
#127
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
So I talked to my machinist about zero decking the engine and he said I need to put the crank and corner pistons in. Then measure from TDC, take it all out and bring it back with the measurement to be taken off. What tool will I need to do this?
07-18-2012, 05:23 PM
#128
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,046
Received 1,668 Likes
on
1,266 Posts
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Feeler gauge & straightedge; or, a caliper, using the part that slides out the back.
Put in the crank and the 4 pistons with no rings; measure right above the wrist pin so "rocking" the piston has as little effect on it as possible.
Put in the crank and the 4 pistons with no rings; measure right above the wrist pin so "rocking" the piston has as little effect on it as possible.
07-18-2012, 06:41 PM
#129
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
I'm just trying to get a visual since I don't have those tools yet and rot assy is still on the way.
07-18-2012, 08:47 PM
#130
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,046
Received 1,668 Likes
on
1,266 Posts
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Right: lay the straightedge on the block across the center of the pistons from front to rear, where the wrist pins are, and stick the feeler gauge under it. The sides of the piston toward the outer and inner edges of the deck can rock up and down, but right over the wrist pin, they can't move more than a .001" or 2, which is not significant.
07-18-2012, 09:20 PM
#131
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Right: lay the straightedge on the block across the center of the pistons from front to rear, where the wrist pins are, and stick the feeler gauge under it. The sides of the piston toward the outer and inner edges of the deck can rock up and down, but right over the wrist pin, they can't move more than a .001" or 2, which is not significant.
The intake and oil pump parts arrived yesterday. I just ordered the heads and the rot assy along with lighter wrist pins are special order so those might be a little longer.
The 4150 that I have has a broken fast idle cam plate and lever. I just need to order a new one and replace it and it should be good to go.
07-20-2012, 04:26 PM
#132
Supreme Member
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
.002" is definitely not worth the added expense.
Truthfully, as sofa has pointed out, .001" -.002" will probably be the margin of error in your measurements and as such, you may find a piston that's ends up OUT of the hole by that amount.
Just to put it into perspective, the stack up of machining tolerances on the crank, rods and pistons will undoubtedly exceed .002" from cylinder to cylinder. A stock short block can have a deck height variance of .010" of more.
To truly blueprint an engine, that is trying to get every measurement of one cylinder to compare exactly to the next requires a careful measurement of the entire assembly and machining of the aforementioned components to compensate. Chances are, despite your best efforts, decking the block is not likely to yield an even deck height on all cylinders and your quest for a zero deck isn't likely tio happen across the board.
This is something you may want to reconsider unless of course you've got the cash to throw around.
Truthfully, as sofa has pointed out, .001" -.002" will probably be the margin of error in your measurements and as such, you may find a piston that's ends up OUT of the hole by that amount.
Just to put it into perspective, the stack up of machining tolerances on the crank, rods and pistons will undoubtedly exceed .002" from cylinder to cylinder. A stock short block can have a deck height variance of .010" of more.
To truly blueprint an engine, that is trying to get every measurement of one cylinder to compare exactly to the next requires a careful measurement of the entire assembly and machining of the aforementioned components to compensate. Chances are, despite your best efforts, decking the block is not likely to yield an even deck height on all cylinders and your quest for a zero deck isn't likely tio happen across the board.
This is something you may want to reconsider unless of course you've got the cash to throw around.
Last edited by skinny z; 07-20-2012 at 05:24 PM. Reason: clarification
07-20-2012, 07:10 PM
#133
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
.002" is definitely not worth the added expense.
Truthfully, as sofa has pointed out, .001" -.002" will probably be the margin of error in your measurements and as such, you may find a piston that's ends up OUT of the hole by that amount.
Just to put it into perspective, the stack up of machining tolerances on the crank, rods and pistons will undoubtedly exceed .002" from cylinder to cylinder. A stock short block can have a deck height variance of .010" of more.
To truly blueprint an engine, that is trying to get every measurement of one cylinder to compare exactly to the next requires a careful measurement of the entire assembly and machining of the aforementioned components to compensate. Chances are, despite your best efforts, decking the block is not likely to yield an even deck height on all cylinders and your quest for a zero deck isn't likely tio happen across the board.
This is something you may want to reconsider unless of course you've got the cash to throw around.
Truthfully, as sofa has pointed out, .001" -.002" will probably be the margin of error in your measurements and as such, you may find a piston that's ends up OUT of the hole by that amount.
Just to put it into perspective, the stack up of machining tolerances on the crank, rods and pistons will undoubtedly exceed .002" from cylinder to cylinder. A stock short block can have a deck height variance of .010" of more.
To truly blueprint an engine, that is trying to get every measurement of one cylinder to compare exactly to the next requires a careful measurement of the entire assembly and machining of the aforementioned components to compensate. Chances are, despite your best efforts, decking the block is not likely to yield an even deck height on all cylinders and your quest for a zero deck isn't likely tio happen across the board.
This is something you may want to reconsider unless of course you've got the cash to throw around.
Also about the distributor, I was told a GM HEI would be a good addition and was also told by the same guy that I could find a good one for a price around $60. I'm having a hard time finding what I need when it comes to a distributor.
07-21-2012, 09:20 AM
#134
Supreme Member
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Ok. I still want to measure the deck clearance to be sure though. I know he said he took .015" off. But I'd like to know for a fact.
Also about the distributor, I was told a GM HEI would be a good addition and was also told by the same guy that I could find a good one for a price around $60. I'm having a hard time finding what I need when it comes to a distributor.
Also about the distributor, I was told a GM HEI would be a good addition and was also told by the same guy that I could find a good one for a price around $60. I'm having a hard time finding what I need when it comes to a distributor.
As for a distributor, I'm not sure about $60 except for a rebuilt unit however there are several at Summit or Jegs in the $130 price range. I can only suggest that you should be sure to get a unit with vacuum advance (and mechanical of course) and if at all possible, both advance mechanisms should be adjustable. Those are my preferences because it helps in the tuning, not to mention fuel economy. This link is for a non computer controlled HEI style distributor. I haven't checked further to examine the quality of the module or coil.
http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...Ns=Price%7cAsc
07-21-2012, 10:48 AM
#135
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,046
Received 1,668 Likes
on
1,266 Posts
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
With the rotating assys you have been asking about, you will probably be taking something in the neighborhood of .025" - .030" off of it.
Main things for the machinist to get right, is for the deck to be ABSOLUTELY PARALLEL to the crank centerline (i.e., front cyl deck the same distance from crank CL as rear cyl deck); ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to the line from the crank CL to the EXACT CENTER of each cyl; and the 2 sides ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to each other. Similarly, when the block is bored, the boring bar should be located such that the cylinders are EXACTLY where they are supposed to be, that they are NOT bored "on the wear" like a "rebuilt block usually is, and that they are ABSOLUTELY PERPEDICULAR to the crank centerline.
This set of measurements is part of that word you see bandied about casually all the time without any knowledge of what it means: "blueprinting". Imagine that you have this blueprint right here, and you're going to make the block EXACTLY MATCH it, to within a .001" or 2; MUCH closer than the factory's work, by a factor of about 5 to 10. Furthermore, you're going to make all the angles between things correct; the decks parallel to the crank, the BH flange perpendicular to the crank, the head and BH dowel pins in the right place, etc. etc. etc. Obviously at some point you reach overkill doing this, but the part about locating the cylinders is one of the secrets to a motor that makes the "ad copy" power numbers.... yerbasic "slap it together" build will often miss AFR or Edelbrock or whoever's "published" numbers by easily 20% from lack of attention to these details. Think about that for a minute.... by NOT managing these details, you're leaving an unknown amount of power on the table in your build, realistically 50 HP on an average street build, and potentially ALOT more.
Main things for the machinist to get right, is for the deck to be ABSOLUTELY PARALLEL to the crank centerline (i.e., front cyl deck the same distance from crank CL as rear cyl deck); ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to the line from the crank CL to the EXACT CENTER of each cyl; and the 2 sides ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to each other. Similarly, when the block is bored, the boring bar should be located such that the cylinders are EXACTLY where they are supposed to be, that they are NOT bored "on the wear" like a "rebuilt block usually is, and that they are ABSOLUTELY PERPEDICULAR to the crank centerline.
This set of measurements is part of that word you see bandied about casually all the time without any knowledge of what it means: "blueprinting". Imagine that you have this blueprint right here, and you're going to make the block EXACTLY MATCH it, to within a .001" or 2; MUCH closer than the factory's work, by a factor of about 5 to 10. Furthermore, you're going to make all the angles between things correct; the decks parallel to the crank, the BH flange perpendicular to the crank, the head and BH dowel pins in the right place, etc. etc. etc. Obviously at some point you reach overkill doing this, but the part about locating the cylinders is one of the secrets to a motor that makes the "ad copy" power numbers.... yerbasic "slap it together" build will often miss AFR or Edelbrock or whoever's "published" numbers by easily 20% from lack of attention to these details. Think about that for a minute.... by NOT managing these details, you're leaving an unknown amount of power on the table in your build, realistically 50 HP on an average street build, and potentially ALOT more.
07-22-2012, 06:25 AM
#136
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: fremont oh
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 85 built ta
Engine: 350 vortec roller .040 517 lift how
Transmission: 700r4 2800 stall
Axle/Gears: stock 291 need 411
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
i hve a procomp hei 65000volt i paid 50 from skip whip perf. on ebay have had it 6 years n 6500 rpm its great lifetime warranty
07-22-2012, 07:01 PM
#137
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
With the rotating assys you have been asking about, you will probably be taking something in the neighborhood of .025" - .030" off of it.
Main things for the machinist to get right, is for the deck to be ABSOLUTELY PARALLEL to the crank centerline (i.e., front cyl deck the same distance from crank CL as rear cyl deck); ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to the line from the crank CL to the EXACT CENTER of each cyl; and the 2 sides ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to each other. Similarly, when the block is bored, the boring bar should be located such that the cylinders are EXACTLY where they are supposed to be, that they are NOT bored "on the wear" like a "rebuilt block usually is, and that they are ABSOLUTELY PERPEDICULAR to the crank centerline.
This set of measurements is part of that word you see bandied about casually all the time without any knowledge of what it means: "blueprinting". Imagine that you have this blueprint right here, and you're going to make the block EXACTLY MATCH it, to within a .001" or 2; MUCH closer than the factory's work, by a factor of about 5 to 10. Furthermore, you're going to make all the angles between things correct; the decks parallel to the crank, the BH flange perpendicular to the crank, the head and BH dowel pins in the right place, etc. etc. etc. Obviously at some point you reach overkill doing this, but the part about locating the cylinders is one of the secrets to a motor that makes the "ad copy" power numbers.... yerbasic "slap it together" build will often miss AFR or Edelbrock or whoever's "published" numbers by easily 20% from lack of attention to these details. Think about that for a minute.... by NOT managing these details, you're leaving an unknown amount of power on the table in your build, realistically 50 HP on an average street build, and potentially ALOT more.
Main things for the machinist to get right, is for the deck to be ABSOLUTELY PARALLEL to the crank centerline (i.e., front cyl deck the same distance from crank CL as rear cyl deck); ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to the line from the crank CL to the EXACT CENTER of each cyl; and the 2 sides ABSOLUTELY PERPENDICULAR to each other. Similarly, when the block is bored, the boring bar should be located such that the cylinders are EXACTLY where they are supposed to be, that they are NOT bored "on the wear" like a "rebuilt block usually is, and that they are ABSOLUTELY PERPEDICULAR to the crank centerline.
This set of measurements is part of that word you see bandied about casually all the time without any knowledge of what it means: "blueprinting". Imagine that you have this blueprint right here, and you're going to make the block EXACTLY MATCH it, to within a .001" or 2; MUCH closer than the factory's work, by a factor of about 5 to 10. Furthermore, you're going to make all the angles between things correct; the decks parallel to the crank, the BH flange perpendicular to the crank, the head and BH dowel pins in the right place, etc. etc. etc. Obviously at some point you reach overkill doing this, but the part about locating the cylinders is one of the secrets to a motor that makes the "ad copy" power numbers.... yerbasic "slap it together" build will often miss AFR or Edelbrock or whoever's "published" numbers by easily 20% from lack of attention to these details. Think about that for a minute.... by NOT managing these details, you're leaving an unknown amount of power on the table in your build, realistically 50 HP on an average street build, and potentially ALOT more.
And that kind of scares me. How do I know if the deck is "ABSOLUTELY PARALLEL" to the crank centerline along with the other stuff? Since he already milled the deck down, I would think that he made sure all of that is correct, but now that you say that I'm worried in case he didn't make it perfect.
i hve a procomp hei 65000volt i paid 50 from skip whip perf. on ebay have had it 6 years n 6500 rpm its great lifetime warranty
07-23-2012, 12:22 AM
#138
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,046
Received 1,668 Likes
on
1,266 Posts
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
How do I know if the deck is "ABSOLUTELY PARALLEL" to the crank centerline
Yerbasic corner parts store place won't be set up to do that; a racing shop will.
he already took about .015" off
This is what I'm trying to tell you: you can't take a random block with .010" of random unknown variation in these measurements, and "take about .015" off", and end up RIGHT. To get it RIGHT it might need .020" taken off here, .012" taken off there, and different other amounts taken off somewhere else. The end goal is to know the dimensions of the thing is when it's DONE, not "how much is taken off"... if there's .010" of variation before he "took about .015" off", there'll STILL be .010" of variation afterwards.
Personally I wouldn't buy anything from Skip White. Too much of a crap shoot. Kind of like ..... deck height. Like, order 10 of em: 2 might be DOA, 3 might fail by 5000 miles, 3 might go 50,000 miles, and the other 2 might last as long as the cars they're put into do and go to the grave with them. Problem is, you don't know which one is going to come out of that box when you open it.
Variation. It's the root of all evil.
07-23-2012, 04:53 AM
#139
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: fremont oh
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 85 built ta
Engine: 350 vortec roller .040 517 lift how
Transmission: 700r4 2800 stall
Axle/Gears: stock 291 need 411
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
it works about the same as the accel 1 i had its polished n clear cap its good qaulity ive been byin his parts for 10 years aluminum heads pistons n cams servive n parts r great n its skip white perf hes in tennesee hes on ebay
07-23-2012, 05:18 AM
#140
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: fremont oh
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 85 built ta
Engine: 350 vortec roller .040 517 lift how
Transmission: 700r4 2800 stall
Axle/Gears: stock 291 need 411
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
have you ever got ne thing from him i tried kmj for my rockers n broke 8 out of 12 they wouldnt talk to me but ive haad great luck with white to each his own some of us cant pay hi dollar at least his stuff is warrantied
07-24-2012, 03:23 PM
#141
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
That's what you're paying your machinist to measure and put into effect for you.
Yerbasic corner parts store place won't be set up to do that; a racing shop will.
Yerbasic corner parts store place won't be set up to do that; a racing shop will.
Off of what? The cyl that the deck was farthest from the crank CL to begin with, or the lowest? Or somewhere in between?
This is what I'm trying to tell you: you can't take a random block with .010" of random unknown variation in these measurements, and "take about .015" off", and end up RIGHT. To get it RIGHT it might need .020" taken off here, .012" taken off there, and different other amounts taken off somewhere else. The end goal is to know the dimensions of the thing is when it's DONE, not "how much is taken off"... if there's .010" of variation before he "took about .015" off", there'll STILL be .010" of variation afterwards.
Personally I wouldn't buy anything from Skip White. Too much of a crap shoot. Kind of like ..... deck height. Like, order 10 of em: 2 might be DOA, 3 might fail by 5000 miles, 3 might go 50,000 miles, and the other 2 might last as long as the cars they're put into do and go to the grave with them. Problem is, you don't know which one is going to come out of that box when you open it.
Variation. It's the root of all evil.
This is what I'm trying to tell you: you can't take a random block with .010" of random unknown variation in these measurements, and "take about .015" off", and end up RIGHT. To get it RIGHT it might need .020" taken off here, .012" taken off there, and different other amounts taken off somewhere else. The end goal is to know the dimensions of the thing is when it's DONE, not "how much is taken off"... if there's .010" of variation before he "took about .015" off", there'll STILL be .010" of variation afterwards.
Personally I wouldn't buy anything from Skip White. Too much of a crap shoot. Kind of like ..... deck height. Like, order 10 of em: 2 might be DOA, 3 might fail by 5000 miles, 3 might go 50,000 miles, and the other 2 might last as long as the cars they're put into do and go to the grave with them. Problem is, you don't know which one is going to come out of that box when you open it.
Variation. It's the root of all evil.
I'll measure when the rot assy gets in. The measuring tool and heads came in. Summit emailed me that the wrist pins were shipped but I don't think the rot assy even shipped yet.
07-29-2012, 11:19 AM
#142
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
The rot assy just arrived. I want to go ahead and measure deck clearance and then take it out to either get the deck machined if need be or bring to a shop to balance it and install. Or both.
So to measure this, I should only put the corner pistons in?
Also, am I still going to need to lube the bearings this time around since I'm just taking it right back out?
So to measure this, I should only put the corner pistons in?
Also, am I still going to need to lube the bearings this time around since I'm just taking it right back out?
07-29-2012, 01:06 PM
#143
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,046
Received 1,668 Likes
on
1,266 Posts
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Yes only the corner pistons are necessary... unless you think there's a possibility the deck might be curved. But you can check that with your straightedge.
Yes of course you'll need to lube the bearings. Otherwise you'll damage the crank.
I'd suggest buying an extra set of bearings for your test fit (or for the finish build, whichever). Obviously they don't have to be high-$$$ "good" ones for testing, in case your assy came with some kind of nice ones. But if they're just Clevite or Vandervelle or some similar run-of-the-mill stuff, go ahead and burn them off, and just replace em when completion time rolls around.
Post up the measurements you get. I'm suspecting they might be eye-opening to some people.
Yes of course you'll need to lube the bearings. Otherwise you'll damage the crank.
I'd suggest buying an extra set of bearings for your test fit (or for the finish build, whichever). Obviously they don't have to be high-$$$ "good" ones for testing, in case your assy came with some kind of nice ones. But if they're just Clevite or Vandervelle or some similar run-of-the-mill stuff, go ahead and burn them off, and just replace em when completion time rolls around.
Post up the measurements you get. I'm suspecting they might be eye-opening to some people.
07-29-2012, 07:46 PM
#144
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
These questions are probably stupid, but I just put a corner piston in and..
1. How do I turn the crank without the pulley on there? (it was easy to turn without the piston in)
2. How do I know it's at TDC with just the rot assy in?
1. How do I turn the crank without the pulley on there? (it was easy to turn without the piston in)
2. How do I know it's at TDC with just the rot assy in?
07-29-2012, 07:52 PM
#145
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,046
Received 1,668 Likes
on
1,266 Posts
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
How do I turn the crank without the pulley on there?
How do I know it's at TDC with just the rot assy in?
07-29-2012, 08:03 PM
#146
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Put a flywheel on it.
With a dial indicator.
07-29-2012, 08:15 PM
#147
Supreme Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
I'm going to be honest about this.I missed most of this thread and am not going to read back 3 pages.I did however skim some of it.RHS heads are a good buy because they are a as cast head with very good flow numbers.RHS has done a ton of R & D and has the program for a true actuate CNC 5 position port job if you elect to have them port your heads.They has been at this for yrs and are a good buy.Not imported junk that tells you their heads as CNC ported and not based on any research.
You guys have been talking alot about deck heights I gather.The Eagle junk is all over the map with their cranks,rods,pistons.Damm near imposable to deck anything with that.Hard to do even low averages.My main point is don't ever kid yourself.Quality parts and the way they are machined matters.For me I use Howards.Perfectly round,correctly indexed,great finish.
While I appreciate you looking at the SCR,by knowing that it just sets the stage to apply that to DCR's and cam choices.I strongly suggest you stay the course on this build no matter what anyone tells you.
While you trying to set the clearances for you bearings,you might find you have to use two hafts of different size bearings.One standard and one slightly undersized.For bearings I use kings bearings.They are completely round with really good materials.
While as far as I know,you didn't ask about ring gap's.Those should be set based on use.Here is a example:
Before I forget,free floating piston pins do nothing fore more power.Unless you planing to change pistons often press pin pistons as ok.
You guys have been talking alot about deck heights I gather.The Eagle junk is all over the map with their cranks,rods,pistons.Damm near imposable to deck anything with that.Hard to do even low averages.My main point is don't ever kid yourself.Quality parts and the way they are machined matters.For me I use Howards.Perfectly round,correctly indexed,great finish.
While I appreciate you looking at the SCR,by knowing that it just sets the stage to apply that to DCR's and cam choices.I strongly suggest you stay the course on this build no matter what anyone tells you.
While you trying to set the clearances for you bearings,you might find you have to use two hafts of different size bearings.One standard and one slightly undersized.For bearings I use kings bearings.They are completely round with really good materials.
While as far as I know,you didn't ask about ring gap's.Those should be set based on use.Here is a example:
Before I forget,free floating piston pins do nothing fore more power.Unless you planing to change pistons often press pin pistons as ok.
07-29-2012, 08:51 PM
#148
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1992 Firebird
Engine: 3.1L(swapping in 385)
Transmission: Looking for T56
Axle/Gears: Looking for 3.73 posi
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
WOW. Forget question 1... Wasn't a stupid question, I was just being stupid. I had the piston backwards.
I knew the right way but forgot the engine was upside down on the stand.
I knew the right way but forgot the engine was upside down on the stand.
07-29-2012, 09:09 PM
#150
Supreme Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build
Maybe you want to buy a crank socket which has got a slot to fit on the crank key and on your 1/2 ratchet.Little easier than the flywheel.
http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...kshaft-Sockets
http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...kshaft-Sockets
Last edited by 1gary; 07-29-2012 at 09:15 PM.