http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1063/

A good option for an engine builder to own, along with that dial indicator.

 

I think you may be right. lol

That sounds like a great idea. I'll get one of those. I'm not planning on this being my last engine build.

And definitely one of those. Can't really go any further without that measurement.

 

While you looking at tools,your going to need a 1/2 drill to oil prime the engine after you got it back together.You're going to feel it slow down twice and after the second time stop priming it.You don't want to over prime it and wash off the break-in oil.

 

Ok. So I've been measuring the corner pistons at TDC, but I think I'm doing something wrong. I did the number 8 cylinder first and got: back of piston deck clearance around .013" and front around .002". Then did number 2 and got: back .010" and front couldn't even fit the .0015"???

I'm pretty sure the deck is not that uneven. I'm about to look for another straight edge just in case it's that. But could I be doing something wrong?

Edit: I finished all of them with a more reliable straight edge and same thing for all of them. One side can fit like up to the .012"-.015" range and the other either can't fit .0015" or up to .002". I'm measuring in the middle of the piston along the wrist pin, so it's not rocking. I'm pretty sure it's not the deck being that uneven because you can see where the piston is closer or farther to the straight edge. Would this be caused by not having the rings on?

 

That's EXACTLY what I expected you'd see, and is the reason why I told you to measure it.

Sounds pretty normal, really. Right about the mean of the variation on typical stock blocks I've bothered to measure. (.010" - .015" between the extremes of the individual cylinders)

Now you see why "take .015" off" doesn't work. Some, you'll be OK; some, you'll be seriously in hell.

The rings won't affect the measurement.

Your decks REALLY ARE that far off.The measurements don't lie. Like said though, not even remotely unusual; just typical stock machine work tolerances. Frankly I'd be surprised to find a block that was significantly closer than that.

The 60s and 70s blocks, especially 70s, are the worst. Those were the days of the extremely adverse worker-management relationship, the workers seeing their "entitlement" slipping away, the mgmt sticking their "entitled" heads in the sand and refusing to realize what was going on and deal with it effectively, the workers stretching every possible "work rule" to the absolute limit and then some just to see how far they could go, .... yeah. It's all part of why I won't build those old blocks any more, the "high nickel" myth notwithstanding. Be glad you have a "newer better" one.

Of course, some of it could be the crank (variation in stroke), and/or the rods (variation in length). Easy enough to tell about the rods; just take a .015" one and put it where a .002" one was, and see if it changes.

 

Wow. That sucks. What should I do? I want to zero deck it, but I don't want to leave any part of the piston out of the hole.

 

Amen to that!!
The fact of not pouring $ into a block just to be plagued with cam problems/noise because the lifter bores are worn out is worth it alone.
Most overlook that when doing a motor for some reason.

Dont be obsessed with 0 deck even 5-015 down is just fine. Youll never notice a difference trust me. These blocks are never perfect.
As sofa said switch the two rods see what you got.
Line boring making sure the crank is straight etc all has a little something to do with it.

 

Ok. Well that's good to hear. I'll have to switch the rods this afternoon when I get home.

Also, about the lifter bores, would the machinist take care of that while boring and all that? I figured that was part of it. My lifter bores look like they're in good shape (although looks can be deceiving).

 

I went to go switch some rods and realized that I forgot to torque the rods down to the crank. I couldn't find the right size socket for my torque wrench, so I'm going to get an adaptor to fit the right size socket. I'll re-measure after that and post the results here.

Sorry about the delay, I've been busy removing tinting from the car and re-tinting it.

 

I'm curious.
What are your intentions for the final assembly?
Have the bearing clearences been confirmed? What about rod bolt torque as opposed to stretch?

 

New numbers for deck clearance:
Piston 1: 0.013" on the front of piston and 0.011" on the back of piston
Piston 2: 0.007" on the front and 0.012" on the back
Piston 7: 0.015" on the front and 0.009" on the back
Piston 8: 0.004" on the front and 0.015" on the back.

By intentions, do you mean hp and tq or like how the car with be ran?

I haven't confirmed the bearing clearances yet. I'm using different bearing for the actual build. I'm not sure exactly how that's done. I've looked into it some but not 100% on it.

About the rod bolt tq, there is a sheet I have from the rot assy that has the tq specs on it. Says 40 tq for rod bolts.

But when it's all said and done, I'll probably have the bottom end built when they balance it, that way it's done professionally. I'm just trying to see if I can get as close to possible to zero deck. Right now, I feel like with the numbers I'm getting I might not be able to do much in that aspect though.

 

Yes have ea lifter bore measured individually. Can check for straightness also.

 

That would be my call too.
By intentions, I was asking how you would go about doing the final assembly if you were to do it on your own.
Having a shop assemble the short block is far and away the best idea unless you're well equipped with the appropriate tools and have had experience doing it before.
Yes, you could do it yourself but there are a lot of snags you could run into.

 

That's a interesting point that you've brought up.
I've just gone through a set a new Comp 853 lifters that I couldn't get to pump up despite having excellent oil pressure and relatively fresh short block.
The only variable in this build was that the fuel pump lobe on the cam had been worn down to zero and all that debris had been running through the engine. I had never thought to check the lifter bores for excessive wear. That short block is currently on the shelf but is still probably worth investigating.

 

Yea. I've assembled the short block before but that was on 2 stock non performance engines. I'd rather do it correctly by not doing it and letting the professionals handle it. I will be putting the rest on though. My biggest problem with this build is time though since I'm in college now.

 

Hey guys. I haven't given up on the project. I just haven't posted because I started college. I'm 4 hours away from the engine so I can't do anything until either winter or spring or worst case next summer. I have the block oiled and covered so it doesn't rust. I'll probably have my dad oil the cylinders every once in a while too. I'll post back when I'm doing something with it because I'll probably have more questions. Thanks for everyone's help so far.

 

Hope no one gets mad I'm reviving my thread.

Update: I just got my block back today. It is balanced and the short block is put together. Kept the flywheel/flexplate and damper from them. They will need to be neutral.

When I get time, I'm going to cleanup the oil pan and then throw it on after the oil pump. Pretty sure I have all gaskets needed.

I really want to put the heads on too so I can protect the cylinders from moisture as much as possible. The problem is I'm missing rockers and push rods.

I'm getting confused on picking rockers. The heads I have are RHS Pro Action cast iron heads(discontinued). They come with guideplates so no S/A rockers. These guideplates are found here. The rocker arms they come with are ARP 7/16 found here. I bought them last year and they've been waiting in my room. Can't quite remember the springs that are on there. Been a while and they can't be found anywhere. If I need to I'll call Competition Products. Any suggestions for rockers?

EDIT: This is what I came up with. LINK. Does this look good or am I missing something. I know how easy it is to screw things up in an engine; trying to avoid that.

 

Get the 1.6 version

 

I'm not sure if I have enough room under the springs for 1.6.

 

Rather than re-reading your entire thread, can you recap what you've got?
Short block specs like deckheight and piston. Flat tappet or roller cam and specs if you've got them.
I've got the RHS Pro Torker heads, also discontinued, but have all the specs like springs and such if you ordered them assembled or even purchased the install kits seperately. The head part numbers were different depending on the valve spring used based on the type of cam (Roller or flat).
For what it's worth and this is dependant on your application, but an aluminum rocker is probably not the way to go. Personally I'd be more inclined to go with one of the better steel rockers. To be absolutely sure that you can fit a 1.6 ratio rocker is something you'll have to measure once you've made a first assembly of the engine. It's also vital that you determine the proper pushrod length.

 

I didn't read the entire thread, but.... if its not a roller cam I would stick with 1.5 rockers, for the added 10hp its not worth the added complexity and geometry issues going 1.6. Hard enough to make a flat tappit cam live these days.
Harland sharp, price, service, and reliability second to none.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cs...make/chevrolet

I was cheap on my current build and went with a welfare comp rocker and they daily 6000rpm abuse and so far so good.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...make/chevrolet

 

The deck height should be around 9.010". I say around because I don't think it's PERFECTLY even. I never got around to zero decking it unfortunately. The rot assy has me at 9.008". The bore is 4.040 with a 3.75 stroke crank.

My cam is the flat tappet Lunati 60103 as they USED to call it. Specs found here. Block wasn't setup for roller.

I remember the Pro Action I have are the stage 1 assembled pair. Item # is RHS12317k1. That didn't seem to help. I don't have them out of the box right now for the castings. They definitely are 180cc/64cc, straight angle, and 2.02/1.60. If I need to find the spring specs I'll have to call Competition Products on Monday and have them look it up. Already called them once.

I took your advice Skinny Z about aluminum vs steel. I researched that after I read your post. Although many people have no problems with aluminum, I'd feel better inclined to used some nice steel rockers. What are thoughts on these? The price is hard but that's what I've noticed with steel rockers. It's chromoly steel; I don't know the adv/disadv for stainless vs chromoly vs whatever steel.

 

Quench.Man I don't know how I missed this thread.Tons of truth in this post.The target of .040 to .035 is a matter of fact when it comes to using the potential of a engine or it ending up being a turd.That said when your balancing the .040 with SCR the use of aluminum heads gives you a whole point in SCR using pump gas.Here is a good article about quench:

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Quench

Thank you for starting this thread out the right way when your concern is "matched parts build". When looking at heads for a stroker like yours,you have to decide where your want to tailor the torque curve.Street cars love torque.So a 180cc intake runner is going to keep the volume up for off idle to say 4 grand.Cam choices depending on compounding the intake runner size with what choice.And your going to give up HP when those heads are likely going to be all done for hp by 5 to 5,500.Now you don't want to build a engine the acts like a diesel with tons of torque,but cruise speeds falls on it's face in hp.It's for that reason the rule of thumb for a stroker SBC 383 or in your case.Is intake runners of 195CC.That will raise the beginning of the torque curve to about 2,500 to 3,000 grand and will allow for more room to a hp rpm range.More of a smooth transition .Better cruise speeds.

BTW-there has to be a consideration when choosing a cam for a given SCR.This article explains that:

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._compatibility

Most cams are not ground to straight up. Degree-ing a cam will confirm that,so often you find yourself having to advance the cam 4 degrees.

I have to admit I didn't read the whole thread and maybe you guys have cover this already.

I also have to tell you Sofa and I have gone round and round before disagreeing.From what I have read in this thread so far,I have to commend him for the solid good info he has provided you and the amount of time he devoted in doing so.

Sofa-good stuff on a first class job bud!!!!.

 

The advice on targeting a .040" quench is what I've followed on my Vortec and now my RHS iron headed build. It believe it's what allowed me to run in excess of 10.25:1 SCR with my relatively short cam. DCR is around 8.3. That said, it's not entirely necessary to bring the block back to the machine shop and get it zero decked. If you've established what your piston height is (relative to the deck) then you can choose an head gasket that gets you to the .040" value. Some might argue that .035" is getting a little close although we've run .036" and so far haven't had any trouble (that we're aware of). For the record, that was with a piston that's .010" in the hole and combined with the Victor Reinz or Clevite 5746 head gasket to get us to .036" quench. Some might also argue that you shouldn't use a head gasket as a tool to achieve your quench but realistically and especially if your short block is assembled and ready, then the gasket isn't going to make any measurable difference. At least not in my experience.

If your heads are like mine when I ordered them, the spring choice is probably the Comp 986. Here's a catalog cut for your heads (I think they're yours).
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rh...make/chevrolet

Regarding your cam, the first thing I'll ask is what piston are you using? Flat top or dish? If it's a dish, what shape and volume? I have to agree that your choice of cam is a little on the short side regarding duration. While I haven't done a DCR calculation for your combination, I'm willing to bet that it's getting up there. The RHS castings are better than the OEM Vortecs and as such I accept the 64cc chamber volume. Based on how my engine stacked up, a cranking test showed compression pressure in the 200 psi range which would indicate my calculated SCR as being fairly accurate (using 64cc as a guide).

The rocker arms you've selected are, in my opinion, about the best choice out there for your application. Yes they're pricey but they're an excellent part, durable and the new design is very light.

 

Well I already have the heads. So there probably isn't too much I can do about the 180cc runner. I wasn't that aware about that. I'm not familiar with what all makes the right tq/hp curves. Hopefully that doesn't screw me over.

Those spring's specs look familiar. I'll still call tomorrow when they're open just to be sure. I like to be as sure as possible with engine things.

The pistons I have are dish ("with a D-shaped cup"). They are +18.00 cc.

I knew my cam wasn't large in too many ways. It's probably around a good size for me. If I dropped it and found/ordered a better matching cam, how much would this help? I ask because I already have the cam as well.

Agreed. He has helped so much and taught me a whole lot. So has everyone else. When I first started all of this, I had no idea what I was doing. Now I sort of understand.

 

The D-shaped pistons are the preferred design for what your doing.

 

Got the rockers and pushrod length checker on the way. Along with the headers I'm using. I'll assemble the heads and put them on soon after I get them and check the pushrod length. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

As a general rule of thumb, I should get heat treated pushrods with guideplates? Is chromoly better as well?

 

Absolutely.
A quick SCR check with your specs and a .026" head gasket gets about a 9.7:1 compression ratio. I think that will work well with your short cam.
And for what it's worth, I find (and this is in research only with no applied experience with a 383) that a 180 cc intake runner will work well with the rest of the parts you've assembled. Odds are you've built an engine with a strong torque curve. It may run out of steam at the upper rpm range but it should set you back in your seat nonetheless.
That's my opinion anyway.

 

As far as pushrods go, my experience has been strictly with Comp. I go for their Hi-Tech pushrod which is a chromemoly heat treated piece designed to be used with guideplates.
That said, this time around, I've had to settle for their Magnum version. I believe the only difference is that the Hi Tech is seamless and the Magnum isn't. There wasn't any stock available for immediate delivery (in Hi Tech) from any of the mail order houses in the length I needed (7.15") so I went with the Magnum style. If a seam splits and grenades my engine I'll post up.
Further to that, use your pushrod checker to good use, otherwise you may find yourself following the path I did when I failed to pay attention!
Check this out.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...od-length.html
Live and learn.

 

Holy cow. That is a scary story. I'll be sure to be careful when checking. Such a small difference in correct length too.

Where did you get those numbers from? I'm getting a 9.67:1 with a gasket at 0.040" thickness and 4.100" bore.

 

I use the SCR/DCR calculator that's linked to this paper on dynamic compression. If you haven't read it, it's something you might consider doing.
http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
The values I used for your engine were:
combustion chamber volume; 64cc
piston dish; 18cc
piston below deck; .010"
bore and stroke; 4.04" x 3.75"
head gasket; .026" x 4.10"
I pulled those numbers from your post but I may not have all the latest data.

 

Oh. The rot assy has me at 9.008". My machinist said he took 0.015" off of the stock deck height of 9.025" due to imperfections. That should leave me 0.002" below deck. That's where I got mine from.

 

350 block you dont have a 4.1 in bore maybe thats the difference.

Good pushrods a must.
Dont get the house name hardened stuff. hardness may test fine bu the metal inside wont take it. Living proof of that one.

"Just the same as Manley". first time to 5000 rpm 2 of them broke the rest folded up like tinkertoys. Heads were beat up from the pushrods flexing so much motor never made an ounce of power felt like a 2bbl. Like variable valve timing lol. In 60 miles destroyed the valve tips. Also meant my brand new roller lifters were getting absolutely hammered on the cam, too from bouncing.
Little details matter.

 

Right. My block bore is 4.040" but the head gasket bore I have is 4.100". A guy from comp products told me to go with a head gasket with that bore with these specific heads.

 

Absolutely. All of the valve train parts for that matter.
I'm hoping that Comps "2nd line" don't fold up on me. Hi-Tech vs Magnum. I'll know soon enough.

 

Something interesting regarding the head gaskets.
I ordered the Clevite 5746 (from Summit) which carries the same part number as the Victor Reinz. The gaskets arrived today in Victor Reinz packaging despite placing the order as a Clevite part.
The catalog for the Clevite lists it as a 4.125" bore while the V.R. lists it as 4.100". Both at .026" compressed thickness.
I'll have to measure with my verniers. My bet is that it comes in at 4.100". I've found the Summit catalog to be wrong before.

 

skinny z (or anyone who knows): I need new head bolts of course, do I need a special style for the pro action heads you listed above? Or are these stock config?

EDIT: I mean of course these follow the same pattern but will they be longer or anything?

 

I'd check the ARP website to see if there's something specific for your heads.
I'm using ARP 134-3601 with are 12 point with washers.

 

I actually think these are my heads now: link

My receipt says 12317k1 for item number. The reason I ask about the head bolts is because I saw there was an option for head bolts for "Pro Action 23 degree heads." I don't think mine are "23 degree" unless I looked over that. It confused me because my heads have 23 degree valve angles. So it's either OEM style bolts or 23 degree, but I don't want to spend ~$100 on something that isn't mine. lol. The 134-3604's are the ones I'm talking about.

EDIT: Got ahold of Comp Products. It is the 134-3601's that I want. I'll be ordering those soon. I'll probably put the cam in today. I'm still giving the old oil pan a chemical bath. Once that's done I'll install the oil pump and the pan. I need to clean all the threads first; waiting on my thread chasers.

 

I'm so glad this thread got revived.

I was fortunate enough to have Atilla email me directly with some info but this thread is learning gold. I have a planned 383 project coming up and there's a lot of good info in here. Although I am probably going higher on CR (11:1) since its not a DD and I am planning on fitting up a FIRST tpi on the top instead of carb.

Great info - keep it coming.

 

It's been a couple of days. I have almost everything ready to go. I've just been trying to clean the old oil pan. Been soaking it and pressure washing it. Once that's done I'll be ready to start again.

Trying to get the old oil gunk out with some crazy shop cleaner we've always had for engines and then the paint starts flaking off so I'm trying to keep both out of the system.

 

I want to go ahead and install the timing gears. Whats the best way to put the crankshaft gear on without screwing over the crank/bearings?

I'll do the lifters tomorrow, I'm soaking them in oil right now.

After the timing I'll do the oil pump/pan. I read to put it on with the pickup high up, put the pan on to move the pickup, take the pan off, and then move the pickup about 1/4" off of where the pan was. Is this correct?


Also, I kind of messed up. I pulled the cam gear out of the box and used it to install the cam. But now I forgot which marking on the crank gear was supposed to be lined up with the cam gear dot. Any help?
EDIT: Answered my last question by looking at it a little harder. lol