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Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

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Old 05-25-2012, 03:25 PM
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Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

This is the first v8 I have ever built. I have a 350(casting 10054727, code K1115TPA) that came out of an 88 IROC, but I think it was swapped into the IROC from a truck. It's also now carbed, I guess someone replaced the TBI with a carburetor. I've taken everything off the engine except for crank, cam, pistons, lifters, and timing set. Just waiting for our tools back. I really need help matching the cam, heads, intake, and all that because I don't want to buy things that don't match. I'm thinking my goal is 400+hp and it to be a street car, maybe see strip rarely. I'm not really concerned about gas mileage. This is going into a 1992 firebird. Currently stock 3.1L with stock transmission and rear end. But I have a 700r4 to match the 350(although now I'm thinking about buying a nice manuel to hook up to it) and I'm planning on putting in a posi rear. I'm planning on replacing the cam, heads, intake, carb, possibly pistons, plus anything to make this work. I just need help matching everything and I don't know where to start. Anything is appreciated.
Old 05-25-2012, 03:34 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Doesn't particularly matter where the block came from or what it's out of. It IS what it IS, which is, a 350 block.

I'd suggest flat-top pistons, Vortec heads (casting 062 or 906; either get a pr from the junkyard off of a 96-2000 truck, or consider ones already finish-prepped from SDparts or the like), a Performer RPM intake, a Comp XE268 or Lunati 60103 cam, and a Holley manual secondary carb. 3.73 gears if it's a stick, 3.42 and a 2800 RPM stall if it's an auto.
Old 05-26-2012, 12:33 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Would something like this be going down the right path?
-heads: Vortech heads with 0.600 springs
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...er/sd8060ragp2
-Intake: Edelbrock performer RPM intake, square bore
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7516/
-cam: Lunati 60103
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60103/
-carb: Holley 4150 650 cfm, square bore
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-0-4777S/
Haven't decided on pistons yet. I'm looking at forged flat tops but haven't decided brand. I probably need to know the bore of the block I have before buying, right? I'm currently looking for a T56 trans and the 3.73 posi rear. If this combination so far doesn't work, please let me know.

Last edited by Seanphelps321; 05-28-2012 at 03:52 PM.
Old 05-28-2012, 03:07 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

If the above does work so far, I've done a lot of research but still not sure if I'm picking the right parts, what kind of lifters, rockers, and pushrods will I be looking at? Should I get lifters with a link bar or not? For the rockers, is 1.6 a good idea? And I have no idea about pushrods.

Last edited by Seanphelps321; 05-28-2012 at 03:31 PM.
Old 05-28-2012, 06:52 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

THose are all pretty decent... one thing though, you might want to see if you can score a factory roller cam setup (the lifters and hardware, not the cam...) and switch to a roughly equivalent cam, which you should look for a spec of about 8° or so less intake duration; that'll improve the odds of first-time success. You'd want to switch to these heads instead (main difference is the springs) http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...nter/sd8060ra2

Probably don't need 1.6 rockers with those heads.

Link bar lifters are MAJOR $$$$ compared to factory ones; which is why coming up with all that hardware will give you the extra spiff of the roller cam without having to spend so much to get it.

Push rods are the last thing to buy; after everything else is installed, you measure to determine the correct length. Don't worry about those yet.
Old 05-28-2012, 08:07 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Will a roller setup work in this block? I was under the impression that it's a non roller block. If it does work, by factory setup, do you mean roller setup that was stock in one of the blocks or aftermarket roller setup with same specs? Also by
and switch to a roughly equivalent cam
do you mean roller cam or flat tappet? Sorry, I'm trying my best to keep up.
Old 05-31-2012, 10:21 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

On a side note, I have the block all the way stripped down now. Unfortunately there's a little bit of rust and buildup in a couple cylinders. Hopefully getting it honed out will fix it, if not I may just bore it out. But I will be taking it to the shop soon to get it ready for the build and I'll start buying parts as soon as possible.
Old 06-01-2012, 06:08 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Quick question, since I have just the block on the engine stand, would it be worth it to convert this engine to be a 383 stroker? I feel like it might be easier to produce the power I was looking for. If the conversion would be worth it, would there be a considerable change in the price I would have to pay?
Old 06-01-2012, 06:14 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

I am selling a Lunati 60103 cam, brand new in the box, with the lifter kit for ALOT less than summit. I'm looking for 120 plus shipping. I also have a thread in the for sale section about this. I also have a 650cfm double pumper I'm selling. If you're interested just let me know.
Old 06-01-2012, 06:23 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by calamitascamaro
I am selling a Lunati 60103 cam, brand new in the box, with the lifter kit for ALOT less than summit. I'm looking for 120 plus shipping. I also have a thread in the for sale section about this. I also have a 650cfm double pumper I'm selling. If you're interested just let me know.
I'll have to keep that in mind. That would help me a lot. Dumb question though, if I were to convert this 350 to a 383, would most parts I would use for a 350 still work, besides the crank, connecting rods, and maybe pistons of course.
Old 06-01-2012, 06:24 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Yes; in fact, ALL would.

As far as the block being a roller, put up a pic of it showing the lifter area, and we can tell you instantly whether it's set up for the factory roller system or not. Seems to me, at least SOME of that casting #, are.
Old 06-01-2012, 07:15 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build




Last edited by Seanphelps321; 06-01-2012 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Better than links
Old 06-01-2012, 07:40 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Unfortunately, no... not set up for it.
Old 06-01-2012, 07:46 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Unfortunately, no... not set up for it.
I didn't think so. A hydraulic flat tappet setup can give me a good amount of power with decent drivability though, right?
Old 06-01-2012, 08:30 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Yup, been doing it for decades... the other kind just does it a bit better, with the added bonus of not having to worry about lobes "going flat".
Old 06-01-2012, 08:53 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Yup, been doing it for decades... the other kind just does it a bit better, with the added bonus of not having to worry about lobes "going flat".
True. So I'm actually thinking of making this a 383 now. I will be taking this to a shop that we've had engines machined at before. I need to bore it .030" over with a 3.75" stroke crankshaft with something like 6" rods? Something like http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-935060L/ ?

Also, am I still ok with the setup so far:
Heads: http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...nter/sd8060ra2
Intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7516/
Cam: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60103LK/
Carb: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-0-4777C/
Accompanied by a T56 and 3.73 posi that I haven't found yet. lol

Still holding back a little on pistons, need to do a little more research.

Last edited by Seanphelps321; 06-01-2012 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Added lifters to match cam
Old 06-01-2012, 09:39 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by Seanphelps321
thinking of making this a 383 now.
I need to bore it .030" over with a 3.75" stroke crankshaft with something like 6" rods?
Something like http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-935060L/ ?
That crank is listed as for a 1 pce RMS block ; is yours 1 or 2 pce RMS crank?
Old 06-01-2012, 09:41 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

I have a 1 piece
Old 06-02-2012, 07:11 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Yup that's a 1-pc... has most of the roller features cast into it, but not machined... you can see the reliefs in the water jacket next to the lifter pairs to accomodate the "figure 8"s for example, and maybe the nubs where the "spider" would bolt to, but none of it was finished. It lacks the cam retailer plate place though.
Old 06-02-2012, 09:49 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Alright, so when it comes to rockers, what should I put on this set up?
Old 06-02-2012, 12:42 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Depends on how the heads are set up.

If whatever you get has the narrow slots, you MUST NOT use self-aligning rockers, or guide plates.

If whatever you get has the bigger holes that don't touch the push rods, then you MUST use either SA rockers or guide plates.

If you use SA rockers, you MUST NOT use guide plates.

If you use guide plates, you MUST NOT use SA rockers.

Basically there are 3 ways to restrain the rocker on the valve stem: the narrow slots, guide plates, or SA rockers. One of these, AND ONLY ONE, MUST be in effect at all times.
Old 06-02-2012, 07:07 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Depends on how the heads are set up.

If whatever you get has the narrow slots, you MUST NOT use self-aligning rockers, or guide plates.

If whatever you get has the bigger holes that don't touch the push rods, then you MUST use either SA rockers or guide plates.

If you use SA rockers, you MUST NOT use guide plates.

If you use guide plates, you MUST NOT use SA rockers.

Basically there are 3 ways to restrain the rocker on the valve stem: the narrow slots, guide plates, or SA rockers. One of these, AND ONLY ONE, MUST be in effect at all times.
How can I tell if these heads have narrow slots? Should I just buy the heads and look to see what they are?
Old 06-02-2012, 07:31 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Yup, pretty much... although AFAIK, all of the stock Vortec heads come from GM set up for SA rockers.
Old 06-02-2012, 07:58 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Yup, pretty much... although AFAIK, all of the stock Vortec heads come from GM set up for SA rockers.
Ok. That works. Now if that crank I listed works since I'm going to make it a 383, should I use 6" connecting rods? Also from what I've read, an I-beam connecting rod would be better for a stroker engine than an H-beam because of clearance, correct? What about floating vs press fit wrist pins?

When it comes to buying the flat top pistons, I need to know the compression distance and piston head volume to choose correct ones. Am I missing it from the head's specs?
Old 06-02-2012, 09:22 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

The reason stock 400 rods are 5.565", is to allow for an equal ring package to a stock 350. I.e. same width rings, same distance down from the top of the piston. They felt - at the time - that they didn't dare compromise this aspect of the 400.

To use longer rods, the wrist pin has to be moved up. When that happens, one or more of several things must also happen: the rings must be narrower, or closer together, or closer to the top of the piston (the fire), or the oil ring must overlap the pin.

Pick your poison.

OTOH, the 5.565" rods caused a different problem.... consider a "counterweight" on a crank. Pretty easy to see, when the throw is at TDC, the counterweight is at BDC, directly opposite it. Not so obvious maybe, when the throw is at BDC, the CW is still opposite it; at TDC - right immediately underneath the bottom of the piston. Problem is, with a 5.565" rod, there isn't enough room for enough counterweight to completely counterbalance the rod & piston; therefore the requirement for "external" balance.

Longer rods leave enough space for a large enough CW at a 3.75" stroke; but introduce the ring compromise issue.

5.7" rods allow internal (i.e. "stock" in the case of the 1-pc RMS motors) balancing.

For a street motor, 6" rods are probably unnecessary.

The beam design has nothing to do with clearance. The use of cap screws vs bolts & nuts however, DOES.

Here's some rods I have laying around.



These are stock X rods, and Eagle H-beams.

Which one do you suppose will require less grinding?

Stock Vortec heads are 64cc nominal, but more often, are a little smaller; 62cc is more typical. No way to know for sure until you cc them.

Stock small block deck height is 9.025", -.000" +.025" or so. Not uncommon to see more than .010" difference from front to rear (deck not parallel to crank) or side to side (decks not the same) or both.

Stock "height" of the SBC rotating assy is 9.000". Half the stroke, plus the rod length, plus the "compression height" of the piston (distance from center of pin to top), equals 9.000". In the case of the 350, that's 1.74" (half of the 3.48" stroke), plus 5.7" rod length, plus 1.56" CH, equals 9.000". In the 400, it's 1.875" (half the 3.75" stroke), plus 5.565", plus 1.56".

Virtually ALL cast pistons, MOST hypers, and MANY forged, add an extra .020" to the deck clearance (how far "down in the hole" the piston is at TDC) by reducing the CH; on account of, if you're rebuilding a motor, a little bit too low of compression, is preferable to the piston smacking into the head, if heavy decking has to be done to the block to repair whatever damage (a severe scour from a blow head gasket for instance). The CATALOG almost NEVER tells you the REAL compression height; instead, it's more like, the "catalog" "specs" should be read as "designed to fit" as opposed to "measures exactly".

REAL racing pistons don't do this, but most all others (including for example almost all TRWs) do.

If you get around to wanting enough precision to run with people like .... me ... who sweat details like that, you'll have to buy REAL pistons, and then have your block decked TO MATCH THE MOVING PARTS. Ideally you'd want flat-tops, or "reverse dome", WITH ZERO DECK CLEARANCE, and a .039" head gasket. For a street 383 with Vortec heads, I'd shoot for about 9.7:1 compression ABSOLUTE MAX, and 9.3 MINIMUM. To get this, you'd buy pistons with a "reverse dome" that would give that CR with some size close to the "nominal" for the heads; cc the heads to identical; then plane them to get the desired chamber size.
Old 06-02-2012, 10:50 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

So 5.7" rods would probably be the best application for my case, and H or I beam is more of a preference instead of an issue of the engine not running? Also, do I need to wait on the heads to determine what pistons to use too? I'm still a little lost in what to do with pistons. I think I understand most of what you're saying, but I don't know where to go from here.
Old 06-03-2012, 08:57 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

I think, if you want the Vortec heads and know for sure that those are what you're going to get, that you then know enough to choose pistons.

Yes I think 5.7" rods for a 383 are the most suitable choice for a hot street motor that's expected to last lots of miles. I would avoid "external" balance at all costs, and the advantages of 6" rods are not significant in this application, or at least, don't outweight the disadvantages.

Probe, JE/SRP, or the Keith Black hypers all have decent choices for this setup, without having to spend wads of $$$. You can buy "kits" from several mfrs such as Eagle or Scat that use these pistons. IMO the choice between H & I beam rods is not critical for this kind of motor; I beams are probably less $$$ and would be fine. Likewise, you don't need some mega$$$$ crank, if you're running stock heads; it's not "insurance" against anything that's likely to happen. Kind of like, building a house in Florida and bracing it for earthquakes, but forgetting to harden it against hurricanes... doesn't matter HOW good a job you do of making it stand up to earthquakes, a hurricane will still flatten it. Same mental process applies to buying parts: only choose parts that offer features that apply TO YOU, not just waste money on stuff that doesn't improve your product.

Here's the difference between "inverse dome" and "dish" pistons.



Compare to http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC9926-030/

Download or use any of the various compression "calculators" anywhere on the Net; doesn't matter which one, they'll all give the same results, within roundoff error, just like any calculator you buy at the store will give the answer 4 if you add 2+2. Getting the right #s to put in is what's critical; and making sure those #s ACTUALLY REPRESENT what you're building. I.e. don't leave out the deck clearance if you don't do the machine work, etc.

Make sure that whatever "kit" you buy uses the word STOCK to describe the balance. NOT "internal" or "external". Those words cause a great deal of confusion, so avoid them altogether. The question to ask is, "can I use my STOCK crank damper and flex plate". If the answer is "no", keep looking, EVEN IF the kit comes with those things. You DO NOT want to be forced to deal with the situation that creates on down the road.

Last edited by sofakingdom; 06-03-2012 at 09:08 AM.
Old 06-03-2012, 10:52 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Ok. So if I were to use:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-2570020P/ rods
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DMS-1303SX-030/ pistons
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FOG-918044060/ gasket
Mostly for specs..
I got a CR of 9.36:1 with 64 cc heads and 9.56:1 with 62 cc heads
Bore: 4.030 in
Stroke: 3.750 in
Cyl Head volume: 64/62 cc
Effective dome volume: 16 cc
Deck clearance: .025 in(1.875+5.7+1.425=9, 9.025-9=0.025)
Gasket thickness:0.040 in
Cylinders: 8
CR= 9.36:1/9.56:1
I did 62 cc and 64 cc because
Stock Vortec heads are 64cc nominal, but more often, are a little smaller; 62cc is more typical. No way to know for sure until you cc them.
Did I screw anything up?
Old 06-03-2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

No; good so far...

Those rods should require very little, if any, clearancing of the block.

See if you can locate some pistons with a little larger dish, and consider having the block "zero decked" to match the height of the rotating assy. I.e., lower the deck clearance to zero, while also taking out the MASSIVE uncertainty and inconsistency that the factory leaves there, because it basically doesn't matter to them... ultimately it would be the "overprocessing" form of "muda" for them to make it any better than they do. Like these: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PBP-12344-030/ with zero deck clearance. Of course, verify that the true compression height is what they say it is, and that they didn't throw in the extra .020" of "rebuilder" padding... you can measure yourself with a digital caliper, should be the CH spec minus half the pin dia should equal .9615 (1.425" - .927"/2), as opposed to .9815" ... pretty easy to spot without having to even worry about the last 2 decimal places. Any good racing machine shop should be able to do the deck work for you accurately.

A crank somewhat like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-935050L/ should be OK.
Old 06-03-2012, 12:33 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Interesting thread...thanks for the detail sofa.
Old 06-03-2012, 12:42 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
No; good so far...

Those rods should require very little, if any, clearancing of the block.

See if you can locate some pistons with a little larger dish, and consider having the block "zero decked" to match the height of the rotating assy. I.e., lower the deck clearance to zero, while also taking out the MASSIVE uncertainty and inconsistency that the factory leaves there, because it basically doesn't matter to them... ultimately it would be the "overprocessing" form of "muda" for them to make it any better than they do. Like these: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PBP-12344-030/ with zero deck clearance. Of course, verify that the true compression height is what they say it is, and that they didn't throw in the extra .020" of "rebuilder" padding... you can measure yourself with a digital caliper, should be the CH spec minus half the pin dia should equal .9615 (1.425" - .927"/2), as opposed to .9815" ... pretty easy to spot without having to even worry about the last 2 decimal places. Any good racing machine shop should be able to do the deck work for you accurately.

A crank somewhat like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-935050L/ should be OK.
Alright, If I were to get crank, rods, and pistons(verifying, first, the compression height is 1.425" instead of an extra .02" rebuild pad) I can get the block deck milled down to zero deck and machine shop could do this for me if I brought them the block, crank, rods, and pistons. If I did find out that the pistons had the extra .020" could I still get them and just have the block zero decked just a little less? I don't think I've heard of that rebuild padding you mentioned, didn't know what that was.
Old 06-03-2012, 05:39 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350 build

Originally Posted by GICATA
Interesting thread...thanks for the detail sofa.
I agree. This is helping me greatly. Thanks so much sofakingdom.
Old 06-04-2012, 09:54 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Alright, just to make sure I'm on the right track, how does this setup look so far:
383 (1 pce RMS, 2 bolt main, bore 4.030) hooked up to a T56 6 speed with a 3.73 posi rear end(12bolt?)

Pistons: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PBP-12344-030/ **I will have the block zero decked
Rods: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-2570020P/
Crank: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-935050L/
Cam + lifters: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60103LK/
Heads: http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...nter/sd8060ra2
Intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7516/
Carb: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-0-4777C/

These rings were suggested for those pistons: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PCR-3150036-030/
Maybe not this exact gasket, but the bore and thickness specs of it: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FOG-918044060/

Rockers and pushrods will be decided once I get most of the other parts.

Would the stock oil pump be good enough?

Do I need to find a bigger oil pan to fit the crank?
Old 06-04-2012, 11:47 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

For the price of the whole rotating assembly it might just be cheaper to buy a 383 kit instead of piece ing it together i know eagle sells a whole 383 balanced kit for around $750
Old 06-05-2012, 11:17 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Originally Posted by IroczFan
For the price of the whole rotating assembly it might just be cheaper to buy a 383 kit instead of piece ing it together i know eagle sells a whole 383 balanced kit for around $750
Just my opinion, but you get what you pay for, and with Eagle and the cheap assemblies that ain't much.
Old 06-05-2012, 12:42 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

I did look into some rotating assembly kits, some were balanced and some were not. If I were to not get a kit, is it difficult to balance the engine by yourself? Would a machine shop do this?
Old 06-08-2012, 04:58 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

ive got a howards .501,509 oe roller vortec heads dual plenum intake roller rockers 850 vacun secondaries real happy just at 400 hp .040 9.75 compression car is fun other then on my 4th trans redi to put a 400 in it if i could hookup tq arm
Old 06-08-2012, 03:14 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Still not totally sure what I'm going to do about the rotating assembly, still leaning towards piecing it together for some reason. But a quick question, if I were to buy a rotating assembly kit, many of them give me about a 10.5:1 compression and sometimes higher. The recommendation was 9.3-9.7:1 CR. What would be the advantage or disadvantage of the different compressions?
Old 06-09-2012, 10:33 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

more hp n tq but then youll need higher octane i run 93 shell it is enriched n it does work or sunoco 94
Old 06-10-2012, 06:53 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Originally Posted by transam357jim
more hp n tq but then youll need higher octane i run 93 shell it is enriched n it does work or sunoco 94
Hmm. Ok. I'll probably just stick to the parts I was looking at then.
Old 06-10-2012, 07:25 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

my mitor is 98 5,7 bored.040 9.75 cr vortec heads roller rocker 517 howards oe roller cam im rite at 400 hp my timing is set at 30 btdc spins 6500 no problem i searched car craft engine builds and copyed part for part im more the happy with what i have
Old 06-11-2012, 05:08 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

try skip white on ebay best seller n prices or kmj there great to work with ive had problems with every1 else
Old 06-11-2012, 07:32 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Since the stock 350 connecting rods are 5.7" and I'm planning on keeping the rod length 5.7" would it make sense to just re-use the stock rods? I know these probably weren't meant for a 383 stroker, so I don't know if they'll fit my setup.
Old 06-11-2012, 07:46 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

would it make sense to just re-use the stock rods?
Go back and look at the pics of the stock vs aftermarket rods I posted earlier.

Stock 400 rods use a shorter rod bolt, that's also relieved on the outer side, to gain clearance to the block and the cam. 305/350/etc. rods don't.

Speaking of the cam, that's the most troublesome part that rods can hit... can't very well just grind that out of the way if it interferes, like the block. The block, even if you go too far, you can fill or epoxy. Not so with the cam.

If you're going to build a stroker, and want it to be trouble-free, do it right. The parts just don't cost all that much. Especially not, considering how LITTLE you will "save", comparatively speaking; the difference in price between buying a rot assy DESIGNED as a 383 one, vs hacking together something out of stock parts like we all used to have to do back in the 70s, is NEGLIGIBLE nowadays. Probably less than 5% of the TOTAL drive-in to drive-out cost.

I'd skip Skip White. Right on up there with CAT parts and Harbor Freight tools... for the same reason. Yeah if you just want to own a [fill-in-the-blank] and you don't intend to use it, at least not for anything important or more than once or twice, sure; but for anything you want to be able to DEPEND on, ... not so much. I wouldn't be surprised in fact, to find out that Harbor Freight's maintenance dept doesn't even use Harbor Freight tools (I don't know that, I only suspect). You don't see ahelluvalotta Chinese low-bid crap like that even at low-bid construction sites or repair shops, for the simple reason that it costs LESS to spend MORE to buy a QUALITY thing ONCE, than to keep buying cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep Chinese crap over and over. Not even the Chinese themselves will buy that crap: you might be surprised at how often, in RFQs coming from Chinese companies especially in medical or heavy industry type settings, "no China content" is specified. Better than anybody else on the planet, THEY ALREADY KNOW how crappy that crap is. Don't even bother.

Last edited by sofakingdom; 06-11-2012 at 07:57 PM.
Old 06-11-2012, 07:57 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Oh I forgot to mention, the rest of your parts list looks ok. Should give a motor that'll put a big smile on your face and be a major bummer to all the Mustang owners nearby.

For gaskets, all you'll need is something like this. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-HST7733PT16/
Old 06-11-2012, 08:36 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Go back and look at the pics of the stock vs aftermarket rods I posted earlier.

Stock 400 rods use a shorter rod bolt, that's also relieved on the outer side, to gain clearance to the block and the cam. 305/350/etc. rods don't.

Speaking of the cam, that's the most troublesome part that rods can hit... can't very well just grind that out of the way if it interferes, like the block. The block, even if you go too far, you can fill or epoxy. Not so with the cam.

If you're going to build a stroker, and want it to be trouble-free, do it right. The parts just don't cost all that much. Especially not, considering how LITTLE you will "save", comparatively speaking; the difference in price between buying a rot assy DESIGNED as a 383 one, vs hacking together something out of stock parts like we all used to have to do back in the 70s, is NEGLIGIBLE nowadays. Probably less than 5% of the TOTAL drive-in to drive-out cost.

I'd skip Skip White. Right on up there with CAT parts and Harbor Freight tools... for the same reason. Yeah if you just want to own a [fill-in-the-blank] and you don't intend to use it, at least not for anything important or more than once or twice, sure; but for anything you want to be able to DEPEND on, ... not so much. I wouldn't be surprised in fact, to find out that Harbor Freight's maintenance dept doesn't even use Harbor Freight tools (I don't know that, I only suspect). You don't see ahelluvalotta Chinese low-bid crap like that even at low-bid construction sites or repair shops, for the simple reason that it costs LESS to spend MORE to buy a QUALITY thing ONCE, than to keep buying cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep Chinese crap over and over. Not even the Chinese themselves will buy that crap: you might be surprised at how often, in RFQs coming from Chinese companies especially in medical or heavy industry type settings, "no China content" is specified. Better than anybody else on the planet, THEY ALREADY KNOW how crappy that crap is. Don't even bother.
Alright. That makes sense. I had just walked into the garage and happen to see the pistons+rods that came out of that engine, and had the thought. I didn't think they would work, but just curious. With that in mind, the rods I had picked out earlier should work well? Also, when looking at those rods, I saw this
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-25700P/ and
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-2570020P/
The crank selected has a rod journal of 2.100", which I'm assuming the first link would match this, instead of the second that I originally posted, better because it says 2.100" also.

But then again, reviewing what you said earlier about rods, I started to rear your post after that about the engine kits and balancing. Would I be better off going with a rot assy kit that's already "balanced"? If I were to piece the rot assy with the crank, rods, pistons, etc that I've already picked out would balancing this be hard?
Old 06-11-2012, 09:29 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

"Balanced" "kits" are basically never "drop-in"; rather, think of them as being close enough that no unusual contortions will be required.

OTOH, if you stick with buying similar parts intended for similar purposes, they will all have been designed with roughly each other in mind. The problem comes in when you have some cast-steel crank, cheeeeep hypereutectic pistons like SpeedPro or something, and Carillo rods; or some similar mismatch. The guys that made the $1000 a set rods, were expecting lighter pistons; and the guys that made the $189.99 crank, were expecting heavier rods.

IMO the parts in your list are typical of what would come in a "kit". They sort of naturally fit together. That minimizes the odds of some unfixable mismatch. You can get the specs for each - big & small end weight of the rods, weight of the pistons, and the raw bob weight of the crank - and ask your machinist if those are close enough to work with. Keep in mind, as long as you can take weight off of the crank to get the counterweights right, but not have to take off too much, you're in good shape. The problem comes when the crank CWs are already too small to counterbalance the rest.

Just remember, when you get your balancing done, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES allow your crank damper and your flywheel to exist in the shop at the same time as your engine internals!!! Otherwise what will invariably happen is, they'll get the engine "close", then they'll "trim" your external things to "match".... which sounds OK, and for that matter even "works" OK, until you realize that when that's done, then on down the road a few years if you have to change one of those externals (for example, your damper breaks or you decide to put the motor in a car with a stick instead of an auto) you CANNOT POSSIBLY duplicate the balance. This is why the operative concept in balancing a street motor should be STOCK; to maintain interchangeablility.

One of the best ways I've ever found to manipulate the ability to balance a motor, is with the wrist pins. You can buy all sorts of lighter ones. Use that to your advantage if necessary.
Old 06-11-2012, 10:14 PM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
"Balanced" "kits" are basically never "drop-in"; rather, think of them as being close enough that no unusual contortions will be required.

OTOH, if you stick with buying similar parts intended for similar purposes, they will all have been designed with roughly each other in mind. The problem comes in when you have some cast-steel crank, cheeeeep hypereutectic pistons like SpeedPro or something, and Carillo rods; or some similar mismatch. The guys that made the $1000 a set rods, were expecting lighter pistons; and the guys that made the $189.99 crank, were expecting heavier rods.

IMO the parts in your list are typical of what would come in a "kit". They sort of naturally fit together. That minimizes the odds of some unfixable mismatch. You can get the specs for each - big & small end weight of the rods, weight of the pistons, and the raw bob weight of the crank - and ask your machinist if those are close enough to work with. Keep in mind, as long as you can take weight off of the crank to get the counterweights right, but not have to take off too much, you're in good shape. The problem comes when the crank CWs are already too small to counterbalance the rest.

Just remember, when you get your balancing done, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES allow your crank damper and your flywheel to exist in the shop at the same time as your engine internals!!! Otherwise what will invariably happen is, they'll get the engine "close", then they'll "trim" your external things to "match".... which sounds OK, and for that matter even "works" OK, until you realize that when that's done, then on down the road a few years if you have to change one of those externals (for example, your damper breaks or you decide to put the motor in a car with a stick instead of an auto) you CANNOT POSSIBLY duplicate the balance. This is why the operative concept in balancing a street motor should be STOCK; to maintain interchangeablility.

One of the best ways I've ever found to manipulate the ability to balance a motor, is with the wrist pins. You can buy all sorts of lighter ones. Use that to your advantage if necessary.
Alright. So I should basically take the specs from the crank, rods, and pistons and ask my machinist if these work.

Once I do get everything balanced, leaving the damper and flywheel at home, this brings up another question. I'll need another flywheel to match a T56, I should also buy a new damper. What should I look for?

About wrist pins, so the lighter the better?
Old 06-12-2012, 07:40 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

A stock T-56 flywheel will work fine. Just get that when you get your T-56.

No particular need for a new damper if your old one is OK. Again, one made to stock specs is fine.

Yes in general lighter is better for wrist pins... after all, for every power-producing stroke of the engine, they get accelerated to the top of the cyl, stopped, accelerated to the bottom of the cyl, and stopped again; all this energy-wasting motion, TWICE. No sense diverting any more of your fuel's energy than absolutely necessary to this task.

I used a word up there, that sort of applies to the situation... "muda". Read about it and understand it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muda_(Japanese_term) The wrist pin is a necessary part, doing a necessary thing; but does not "add value" to the engine's operation. Kind of like, in your office where you work, the carpet has to be vacuumed every so often, say, once a day; but, vacuuming the carpet twice as much, say, once at lunch and once in the evening, doesn't make your company's product any better. That would be considered "muda". Same deal here. Use enough to be adequate but no more. In the case of wrist pins, the lighter they are, the less energy they waste, therefore the better; as long as they're heavy enough to (a) not break, and (b) be within the range of the crank's ability to balance to them.
Old 06-12-2012, 08:20 AM
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Re: Need help matching cam, heads, intake, etc for 350/383 build

Sounds like you will have a nice combo. You guys think a bigger cam would be too much for the heads? Something like this?
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...x?csid=88&sb=2

I built a 383 hydraulic roller setup last year and I am very happy with it. Mine is slightly bigger than what you are doing, bigger cam, 210cc pro comp heads, 11:1, 750 barry grant, performer rpm... as it sits right now with huge jets in the carb (def rich) I keep up with high 12 sec cars. This motor will be fun. You are doing the right thing researching all of this.


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