NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Opps, i didbt know that a 305 couldnt get you to school and work.

FRMULA88

I may come off like an a$$hole because I am not in the mood to take $hlt from kids who think they know it all already and don't want to heed the voice of wisdom.

whatever. I drove my car stock with a 305 for 3 years,, then spent 17 on and off to make it what it is now.

Glad you race bikes.. I don't

My advise is sound... he will be much happier building a 350... it will cost him the same.

The guys restoring a classic Mustang with a 289 that is a classic car and worth money if numbers matching... there
is nothing rare, classic, or special about a smog era F-body.. they ran that body style for 10 years... a fox body even longer.. Besides both built the same 289 with a 4.00 bore will outgun a small bore 305.

Where do you think the 302 Ford came from? it is a stroked 289... KIds geesh

FRMULA88

I certainly did not need to seek vindication on a web forum either...

figure out how to maintain your junk first... then learn how to be hot rodder.

This forum used to be full of real car guys...

boo hoo pm me that I am pissing on your 305 parade

LOL

FireDemonSiC

Double post.

FireDemonSiC

You truly have no idea just what I have done with this car judging by your response. And I don't need your douchebag approval to feel content about it, either. As I told you prior, you are an arrogant know-it-all douche.

Just for S&Gs, here is what I sent Mr. Guru FRMULA88 in a PM only an hour ago:

And here is his response:

So now that we all know Mr. FRMULA88 is nothing more than a big talk punk in an older man's body, i would like to kindly request that everyone ignore his responses so we can get back onto a constructive track.


Trash has a habit of blowing away in the wind when left alone.

FRMULA88

Another PM that I deleted without reading.

Don't worry, in a few months after you are broke and done screwing up that car, you will sell it and move on to something else. Hopefully accept your flawed logic and make the correction.

Sorry but I call them like I see them.

Good luck with your "vision" I sincerely hope I am wrong about you because the car deserves better. But most people in this hobby flip cars left and right or just dreamers that talk but never do.. I have seen it / heard it all before... .


Son, if you still have this car in 5, 10, 15, 20 years please let me know...that would make me happy that you had the commitment to see it thru. MOST people don't

I won't waste my oxygen on this post anymore...

FireDemonSiC

FRMULA88

[QUOTE=FireDemonSiC;5598816]I can make FAKE QUOTED TOO QUOTE]

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Well, you know what they say about fighting on the internet

FireDemonSiC

Precisely! Maybe one day we will bump into each other at an F-Body meet

3rdgenlewis

I just don't understand why he thinks displacement makes you a "car guy". Go to the track and get beat by a 1.6L l4 turbocharged civic and tell me there's no replacement for displacement. I really like threads like this, because it just shows that 305's aren't junk.. and can be built to respectable performers.

FireDemonSiC

FRMULA88

what does a turbo do? simply this: increases the displacement by increasing pressure.. (boost)

so at 12.8 psi of boost that 1.6L thinks it's a 3.2L at 25.6 it is 4.8L

Why are Grand Nationals turbo TAs so baddass?// because that 3.8L V6 acts like a 7.6L under boost...




The same principle applies to supercharging and nitrous...


So when I install a F-2 pro-charer on my 421 SBC (6.9L) and just apply moderate boost of 7-8 psi... that 6.9 will act like a 10.4 L

No replacement for displacement I don't car how you approach it.. (mountain motor, forced induction, N20)

an engine is just an air pump... the more air you can stuff in it, the more fuel you can burn = the more power it will make.

FRMULA88

This is why dollar for dollar an equally built
N/A 350 will out perform a N/A 305..

You can sugar coat this all you want, tell people to jump off cliffs. but you are not going to defy the laws of physics, mechanics, etc. that is naïve in-experience even your "305 gods" eventually switched to LS & other engines.. what does that tell you?


SO yes by all means enjoy what you have, when you are ready to do performance mods start with the right platform.

In the long run you will be happier and if this is about making performance with less money.. you will also be ahead in the pocket book versus building a 305.. that you say you will happy with.. realize you are not and then doing it all over again...

LOL just food for thought... look at one of this site's sponsors catalog... (SDPC ) and tell me what you find for 305 "performance parts" LOL...

FRMULA88

I offer this up for your reference..

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...d/viewall.html


Yes, you can build a modest 305 I am not arguing that. IF the engine is in good shape and you can afford 1,600$ in parts.. (1999 money so adjust for inflation)

However in the long run when you want more power... you have the privilege of starting over...

FRMULA88

I scanned this from the January 2011 Car Craft magazine and thought it might help with this often asked question. Seems many of the younger guys are willing to attempt a build-up on their own but are stuck with a 305.

Here's the mag's technical editor Jeff Smith's response to this question from a reader in the "What's Your Problem" section..............

THE 305 CONTROVERSY, REVISITED—AGAIN

Ed Shagman; Corona, CA: This appears true of your magazine as well as your competition: A reader asks about building his 305 small-block, and the answer is to dump the 305 and start with a 350. This is an ongoing path you all seem to take. Why not change course and build a stout 305 new or a junkyard dog to prove it's possible? Also, why is it that Ford fans routinely build 281-inch two-valve engines with tiny 3.5inch bores and get 400 hp or more, and the same magazines joke about the Chevy's 3.75-inch bore? i think a 305 can be built to 450 hp and more, so maybe you should come up with an engine builder's competition.

Jeff Smith: It seems we have to deal with this question about once a year.

Some people just want to build a 305—and that's fine. But let's go over why that's not the best idea if you're building an engine to make good power. You brought up bore size, Ed, so let's start there. The reason the Ford guys build the 281-inch mod motors with their tiny 3.5-inch bores is because that's all they have to work with within the engines available for the late-model Mustangs. Even the 5.4L truck engine only has a 3.5-inch bore, and the new 5.0L is only slightly larger at 3.029 inches. The mod engine was designed with a 3.93-inch bore spacing, so a 4.00-inch bore is physically impossible. But if the bore spacing were wider, you can bet your last lug nut that any engine builder would be using a 4.00-inch bore. When you're forced to work with an engine with a tiny bore, you make the best of what you have.
One reason tiny engines like the Ford mod make good power (besides three and four valves per cylinder) is because the builders are willing to spin those overhead cam engines to the moon. The classic equation you should have tattooed on your forearm is Horsepower =TorquexRPM/5,252. Using this equation, if you make 30O Ib-ft at 4.000 rpm, the engine only makes 228 hp. Take that same 300 Ib-ft and apply it at 7,500 rpm and the number jumps to 428 hp. That's great if you like to spin the engine that high. This also means you should shift at closer to 8,000 rpm to maximize acceleration. All that rpm is abusive on parts— much more so than shifting at 6.000 rpm. But even beyond that, a tiny, 281ci, normally aspirated engine that makes 420 hp at 7,500 rpm would make a miserable street engine because it would deliver minimal torque below 5,000 rpm. Then you have to put a deep gear in the car to make it accelerate.

Let's stick with this displacement idea for a moment longer. Let's use a typical 350ci small-block that makes 1.1 Ib-ft per cubic inch. Multiply 350ci x 1.1 = 385 Ib-ft. which is fairly typical of any mild small-block. GU s 353 H.O. crate engine is rated at 380 Ib-ft at 3,800 rpm and 330 hp at 5,000 rpm. While enthusiasts are drawn to the horsepower numbers.
I prefer to look at torque and horsepower because torque is what accelerates the car. A larger-displacement engine will always make more torque as a result of its size. (ME TOO)That's how engine designers made power back in the '20s—with giant engines that ran slowly. They made monster torque—just no horsepower.

Now let's take that 305ci engine and multiply 305 x 1.1 = 335.5 Ib-ft of max torque. We're down roughly 50 Ib-ft.and that's just at torque peak. So a 305 up against a 350 (even at the same horsepower) will always lose to the larger engine because the 350 will make more torque.

[COLOR="red"] I completely agree that a 305 can be built to make 450 hp. That's not too difficult. The engine is limited to smaller heads with 1.94-inch valves because larger 2.02-inch valves won't clear the cylinder wall. [/COLOR](this is why you don't put 350 heads on 305)You're also going to give up roughly 10 cfm or more of flow because the small bore shrouds the valves and reduces flow. You can make 450 hp, but this will require a much-longer-duration camshaft to make torque at higher engine speeds—around 6,500 rpm. A longer-duration camshaft merely moves the torque peak higher in the rpm curve. To make 450 hp at 6,500, this engine has to make 364 Ib-ft at that engine speed. Most street engines create a span of 1,500 rpm between peak torque and peak horsepower, which puts peak torque at 5,000 rpm. That means that at 4,000 rpm, the engine is barely making 320 Ib-ft. Compare that with the mild 350 H.O. engine that makes 380 Ib-ft at 3,750 rpm—or roughly 60 Ib-ft more torque at this lower engine speed. That additional torque is there every time you touch the throttle, making the larger engine much more fun to drive.

We could also talk about how the 350ci engine parts are substantially cheaper because of the insane volume those engines enjoy. Compare replacement piston prices between a 350 and 305. The 305 piston is smaller, so it requires less aluminum, yet the 350 pistons are less expensive. That's because the 350 pistons are sold at ridiculously high volumes, which means the price comes down.

So what have we learned? Can you build a 305 to make 450 street horsepower? The answer is yes. Will it run as quickly in the quarter-mile in the same car as a 450hp, 350ci engine? No, because the 350 will make more torque that will help acceleration. So the bottom line is the 305 will cost more to build and won't make as much torque as a 350. Now I'll agree that if you live on a desert island and all you have is a 305 to build, go for it. But given a choice, I'll always go for more displacement to make more overall
power. I understand that engine-building decisions are often based on what you have lying around. All I'm saying is that you can find Chevy small-block engines on almost every street corner in America, so unless you enjoy spending more more to make less power, the answer seems obvious.

FireDemonSiC

3rdgenlewis

People build WAY smaller engines than 305's for respectable power, every day. Actually, a guy I work with has a 01' Firebird with the 3.8 in it. We've done all bolt ons, and are getting ready for a cam swap.. and I have to say even though it's a 3.8 it would smoke A LOT of V8's on the road today, with less displacement requires more effort, that's a given.. but why can't all builds be fun?

A 305 can be built too 300 horses easily, it can be built to 400 HP with the right parts.. the same way a 350 can be built too 450 HP, it's all about what you want to do. My friend from work could of easily pulled that 3.8 and put a LS1 in it but why? The car came with a 3.8, it's unique too see a 3.8 pull on a modded LS1.. so why not do it? I understand 305's and 350's really have no physical difference, but it's like apples and oranges, you may not find it reasonable to build a 305 since the wall for power is pretty much blocked at around low 400's N/A, but for a lot of people that's pretty damn good.. Especially coming from a 5 litre. I owned 3 trucks before my thirdgen, the thirdgen was my first car.. My first truck was a 1991 F350 with a 7.3L IDI in it.., the second was a 96 Chevy 2500 with a 6.5L diesel in it, last was a 92' Silverado 1500 with a 5.7 in it.. So yes, my thirdgen has the smallest engine and doesn't produce as much potential power as the others, if I had built them.. but who cares? If you're not going to do the drag strip every day, why do you need it? The 305 serves it's purpose if used correctly.. and if you don't aim with unreasonable expectations, is a GREAT street motor.


And as I've said before, if it was really about who's the fastest.. I would leave my thirdgen in the driveway and get on my GSXR, which has seen well over 180 MPH, and that's when I got scared and let out because of speed wobble, she still had more guts left in her.


Just let the man build his car.

FireDemonSiC

FireDemonSiC

Alright. Got a battle plan.

Been making some moves behind the scenes and getting my ducks all in a row.

I located a good machine shop that is actually about 8 miles from my house. People say he's the best in the area for sbc.

In two months I am going to be purchasing my truck (Daily beater) and am going to start building the motor over the winter and hopefully have it ready to drop in by spring/summer of 2014. That is not guaranteed but this thing is going to at least kick off here around October or November at the latest. I just have to take care of a couple things so I can refinance with the bank and buy my truck. That's the only thing standing in the way.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If being "unique" means more to you than making more power for less money then that's wonderful, have fun being unique. No one can tell it's a 305 from the outside anyway, so the only really unique thing about it is the wasted money and slower times.


And the above article pretty much nailed the problem. high horsepower 305's are more than doable, but 350's are easy easy easy to find and cheap cheap cheap. Unlike a 3.8 vs LS1, the 305's and 350's bolt in exactly the same way. To exactly the same transmissions, headers, serpentine systems, heads, cams, connecting rods, etc. So we are in a unique position of clearly being able to judge, dollar for hp, which engine is better. It's a very, very, very clear, cut and dry comparison. A 3.8 to LS1 swap requires the swap costs to be evaluated, drivetrain upgrades, computer changes, exhaust changes etc, to all be evaluated. It's basically rebuilding the car.

You could be more unique by building a 283, if uniqueness is that important to you. Even a 327 is a waste of potential cubic inches, but it's more unique than a 305. Moreover a high horsepower 305 is going to be a dog on the street because once you make the power curve sacrifices to make the hp you want, there's not much torque left in the everyday driving range.

Also, most people stick with the 305 because they feel it's "free" or "cheap" because it's already there. The problem is that it costs you more money in the long run. A whole 350 longblock is cheaper than machinework on a 305. The cost of the block is pocketchange compared to how much it costs to build an engine. We are a penny pinching demographic and all the people here who say to go to a 350 are trying to help you get the most out of your pennies.


Also, firedemon, I love your car and I think you're doing something fantastic with it by saving it and upgrading it even though I disagree with you on the 305. Good luck with your endeavors. But I would bet hard cash money that in 5 years you'll wish you hadn't built up the 305.

kmcn47

theres alot of hate in this thread, firedemon pisse veryone off more, build an l99

FireDemonSiC

Phew. It's been awhile since I've posted here. I'm pretty sure you guys thought this project had been abandoned by now. Due to a few issues I will not discuss here, I ended up having this thread locked and took a hiatus from TGO. However, the project was not abandoned. I have been busy behind the scenes.

I was able to have this thread re-opened to show everyone how far the engine is progressing. JT, if you are watching, I would like to extend a thank you. I know you were under no obligation to re-open this thread.

So, here we go. Where we left off, this project was just a used up old bare 305 block in peeling orange chevy paint. However, alot has changed. I've spent alot of dollars on this project and obviously if raw power and timeslips is what you're after this isn't the course to take. But like I've said since day one I knew what I was getting myself into.

So with all that being said (Get ready for ALOT of pictures)... Ladies and gentlemen, I give you,

*DRUMROLL*

The 334 stroker!



Trip 1 to the machine shop. Tossed the block in the back of my suburban:



Meanwhile, I purchased the Trickflow 175 heads with the cheapest valvespring option and swapped them out for comp cams beehive springs. I also returned the hypereutectic pistons that came with the stroker kit for store credit and used the money to purchase a set of 2618 forged ICON pistons (Since I started this thread, the vehicle has been equipped with a nitrous oxide system and the possibility of mild boost in the future isn't out of the question). Compression with these pistons and the heads I'm using will be 10.4:1 static and around 8.4:1 dynamic.




Block is back from round 1 at the machine shop (Hot tank, magnaflux and rough bore) and home for clearancing:





Drilling the front oil galleries for screw in plugs. Had an oops moment when a tap broke off in the block and I had to use a 7MM socket and the dremel tool to come up with a homemade tap extractor:





Continue clearancing and begin smoothing of the lifter valley and enlarging/radiusing of oil drainbacks:

FireDemonSiC

Even the rear main cap where the oil pump feeds the block through got the treatment:



Back at the machine shop for round 2. Line hone mains, re-tank, hone cylinders, balance rotating assembly, install cam bearings and freeze plugs. Boring and honing was done using a torque plate.




Back home from the machine shop. And my car's future engine in pieces with a quick pose to the vehicle it will be paired with:




Unloaded and painted the block that same night:

FireDemonSiC

A quick mock-up for fun with the trickflows:



Meanwhile, once I got a break from the life of a service writer, we went ahead and yanked the dog 305 out of the car:



Another intermittent goodie. The 2800 12" converter was swapped for a 3000 stall 9.5" Street EDGE



Drag the block and rotating assembly into the shop for a cleaner and more practical work area and begin blueprinting:






Two front lifter gallery plugs drilled 1/32nd for chain lubrication:



Commence assembly:

FireDemonSiC

Cam is in. And BTW here is the spec sheet on the grind I decided to go with:




Cam end play was extremely right around .002. So, I "machined" the thrust plate on the belt sander to get the endplay to .006. Success!




More blueprinting, bearing oil hole matching and assembly. Begin file fitting rings. Gaps I was shooting for were .020 top and .022 second. Had a single oops moment on piston #4 before I got used to the filer and took the top ring to .030. There goes 1/2 HP, Bearings and rings were chamfered (Bearings only) and deburred after of course.






Had an oops moment on one of the main bearings as well. Dremel tool went ape for a second and the grinding stoneput a few very minor nicks into the #4 upper main bearing. Had a mini freak-out, then after showing a few builders the photo I was told the bearing was still very saveable. You guys will get a kick out of this. I used the slug portion of a .45 Hydrashok round to "roll" the burrs out of the nick marks then used a small piece of 5000 grit emery cloth to smooth the bearing in the affected area. Measured clearance at that exact spot and everything was still in spec:

FireDemonSiC

Everyone needs a little fun during their build to keep the process entertaining. So here's my betty crocker windage tray:



Bottom end fully blueprinted and assembled (Minus oil pump).

- 305 Roller block bored .030" over, studded mains
- Eagle steel 3.75" stroker crank
- Eagle 5140 forged rods - ICON 2618 forged pistons - Comp cams custom grind 272XFI 110LSA 222/230 @ .050, double roller timing set - Total seal ductile iron/moly face ring set, Clevite 77 Tri-Metal bearings - Rotating assembly fully balanced, block clearanced and lifter valley ground/oil drainbacks radiused

FireDemonSiC

Hope you guys enjoyed the show. It won't be long now. I just need to buy the pump/pan kit, lifters and then blueprint the valvetrain. It should be in the car and running by late summer/early fall. I've come way too far to back out of this now. I'll update the post regularly as progress is made.


Stay tuned...

gm muscle

Wow, looks like quite a bit has been accomplished! Also quite a lot of money spent! Lol! Reminds me when I stroked the 400 Pontiac motor in my '77 T/A. I had thought about stroking the 305 in my '87 Monte SS but unlike you, I listened to my machinist and others....kinda wish I had gone through the 305 stroker project I was planning. Oh well... Now I am eye-ball deep in swapping in an LS2/4L65e. No turning back now!


Congrats on the progress and kepp the pics coming!

FireDemonSiC

Yeah this little freak motor has always been a dream I had 7 years in the making. The funny part was even after all I've learned on this journey I had plenty of other options. Big blocks, LS and more potent smallblocks. I knew damn well what every one of them would have been capable of and for cheaper to boot or worst case scenario roughly the same amount of money for more power. Somehow though I never lost sight of that little 305 project I thought up back in the day.

I just placed the last $700 summit order last night. More mayhem to follow in the next couple days.

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

Sub'd. love it so far

hectre13

iTrader: (4)

can't wait to see what kind of numbers you put down.. good job man!

FireDemonSiC

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

FireDemonSiC

Placed the final order last night. Another batch of parts coming in. And I'm about done throwing big money at this motor.

I will also be pulling piston #4 back out to replace the .030 top ring as I contacted total seal and they informed me that they CAN in fact sell me a single ring outside of a full set.

dbrochard

iTrader: (3)

Looks like a lot of fun, good luck with the build and don't listen to people saying you should build a 350. Your car, your engine, your choice.

FireDemonSiC

Give that man a cookie.

mk1431

I agree I love my 305 no plans to do anything to it. Its a show'er not a go'er lol not everything thing has to be fast. beside I've whoop a LOT of 350 lead sled 3rd gens with my supercharged 6cly tacoma Srunner

Ron U.S.M.C.

Welcome back Friend.......

cardo0

Though i skipped page 2 i think is was an awesome thread FD. I always wanted a "square" motor - stroke = bore. Ive seen a "square" BB dyno sheet and that motor had a power curve flat as a pancake. Awesome for a street car or drag car too. Since im running a Gen II motor now ive looked long time at stroking an L99 "baby LT1". Gen II LT1 has very good stock heads - maybe not the best but very good for stock sbc heads. My concern was vlv size. How large of vlvs can u install in the 3.74" bore? Im hope to at least fit 1.94"/1.55" vlvs w/o hitting the cyl walls on the 3.74" bore. Did u verify vlv clearances?

Well u really have a lot of work in that block and i like how u cleaned out the lifter valley. I glad u found a new ring set as i was too late here to help with that. BTW bearings are fairly cheap also and i wonder if u can buy a single bearing also.

Man i like your cam choice. It maybe a tiny bit large but if the next step down is not what u want then u should be good - it maybe a little gnarly in street traffic though. But it matches your combination to a T. Once u drive the car for awhile an easy swap to 1.5 rockers will indicate whether u want to drive a smaller cam or not. And FIY at lot smaller displacement engines respond better to larger 1.6 rockers on the intake vlv and 1.5 rockers left on the exh - more so with added exh duration.

Your getting close now and keep us informed. Thx for posting as it helps us all.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

LOL, I'm trying to decide if people would think what you're doing to yours is crazier than what I'm doing to mine...

Are we going to race when we're both done? My worn out weeO5 vs your MONSTER 334?

FireDemonSiC

Capitol after break-in

Blk91Firebird

I didnt figure that after you had put so much time into blueprinting EVERYTHING that you would leave that #4 ring alone lol

He makes a pretty decent point. I am very impressed with how well your bearing turned out and your awesome method for deburring, but i always thought that main bearings had a coating of some kind on them. Either way its your decision

And hopefully I wont jinx the whole thing but Im very happy to see that everyone has been friendly this time around instead of making fools of them selves. You have made incredible progress keep up the amazing work

apie2546

Just read this entire thread, very interesting! I'm looking forward to seeing this done, and in the car (with a burnout video )

Trying to find a way to say this without offending someone, but the reason to build a fast 350 engine, and make a powerful 305 is the same reason. For fun. Don't understand the hate, when both parties just want to have fun, and go fast. Limitations or not!

Good luck!!

gm muscle

^^^^ Well said!

FireDemonSiC

Thanks for the support guys. And that's exactly why I'm doing it. I could have done a 350 or even a 383, but like everyone is well aware of the main limiting factor of the 305 is the bore size and valve choices. You can get into the nitty gritty with things like volumetric efficiency and bore/stroke ratio but I feel those are all trivial items on a street motor.

Plenty of fast street engines have been done on a 1.94 valve and if setup properly the setup as a whole can decently make up for the lack of a larger valve size.

When you start getting into the 400hp range (As far as power levels I will need to switch from a long tube runner setup to hit that mark but 350ish definitely isn't out of the question), the question becomes just how much is enough on a street car?

I don't go to the track regularly and when I do it's just to see what I'm putting down and for fun. Having the best timeslips in my case isn't at the top of the totem. I wanted to be able to look back and say I followed my dream of doing something different. Something everyone told me not to do and still be happy with the results.

Regarding the bearing, they do have a protective coating. These are tri-metal bearings and the main purpose of the outer coating is to protect the bearings during start-up and break-in. It will all wear away in little time. The fact that I used 5000 grit for a few passes and the bearing clearance measured at the "repaired" area tells me the amount of material removed is so small it won't matter. Also remember, as long as your clearances are right, the oil is right and everything is assembled properly the journal will actually touch the bearing. It rides on a thin film of oil.

Damon

I just tuned in because I was thinking "wasn't this thread locked??", which I now know the story. (Man, that's a lot of venom up top, there!)

You made a good choice with the heads. It's not JUST the valve and chamber sizes, it's that they moved the intake away from the cylinder wall to unshroud it (the exhaust moves closer to it's cylinder wall to allow this, but there is much less effect on exhaust flow from doing that). When Trick Flow says they were made for the 305, they aren't kidding.

Sure, it won't make as much low end grunt as an equivalent 350, but I bet the peak HP will be right there with it.

If you can fill those long skinny cylinders, it'll make the power despite the nearly square bore/stroke ratio. And those heads will get you about as close as anything off-the-shelf will.

Blk91Firebird

That is Engine tech 101 and I completely forgot. Thanks for the reminder

*I added a word to your quote*

FireDemonSiC

UPDATE!

Have not kept up with this thread like I should have.

Engine has been in the car and running to the tune of 6 months now. Currently has about 1200 miles racked up.

You guys ready for some more photography and to hear it run?

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Performance numbers please! Trap speed? Chassis dyno results?