FireDemonSiC

I was initially going to wait to post this, but I am just itching to reveal my sinister 305 related plan. So here goes.

Right off the bat I would like to establish that this project is going to happen slowly over the course of the next two years. DO NOT expect weekly or even monthly updates, but be sure to subscribe because as long as finances permit they WILL come. This is going to be done in 4 stages:

- Machine work
- Bottom end kit (Keep reading because this is the exciting part)
- Valvetrain
- Heads

The machine work and the bottom end kit I am planning on having by the end of the year or very early next year, so the shortblock should be assembled within the next 6 - 8 months.

What I am posting here, is the most controversial motor this side of the bowtie. The well known and much neglected 305. This project is dedicated to anyone and everyone who was ever called stupid or put down for running a 305 with pride. One more thing I need to establish. This is going to be a "highly" modified motor. Don't expect to spend $200 on a ragged out 305 out of an 80s truck, dump a few hundred bones into it and start breaking records. I am doing this for my own personal goals, but also to show everyone that it is OK to run a 305 and there ARE people out there who are not going to consider you an idiot for doing so. With that being said...



DISCLAIMER: I am very well aware of the costs/efforts involved in building a 305 vs a 350, 383 or whatever other motor you can think of with a more ideal bore size or technologically advanced platform (Read LSx). I am aware that the 305 mod for mod will ALWAYS have comparatively LESS displacement and power output than a 350+ for MORE money. I am also aware that the smaller bore size of the 305 limits valve choices significantly. I have done the research, crunched the numbers, added up the costs and thought it over strongly for the past FOUR YEARS (Might I add that all the constant hate towards me and my car for having pride in my american V8 platform albeit a 305 only strengthened this decision). I am building this motor solely for myself and will NOT be swayed away from it no matter how much 350 is thrown my way. I would sincerely appreciate it if the anti 305/suggestive 350 comments/advice were kept out of this thread. If you choose to pay no mind to this disclaimer, you will be told to go jump off and promptly ignored.



Now that we have that out of the way, here is what I am proposing:

- 305 ROLLER block bored .030" over
- Comp Cams XFI276 cam
- 334 eagle stoker kit consisting of a custom 3.75" steel crank, forged rods and hypereutectic pistons with 10:1 compression
- Trickflow TFS30300002 heads: 56cc chambers, 175cc runners and 1.94/1.50 valves. I am also planning on smoothing out all internal castings and pathways with a cartridge roll job.
- Who can forget the smaller items like clevite bearings, moly rings and all ARP hardware


The motor is going to be powered by my modified TPI setup which consists of:

- Ported GM base
- Ported SLP runners with big siamese mod.
- Plenum matched to SLP runners and internally ported with all castings removed/smoothed over.
- Bosch 22/lb injectors w/ Holley AFPR
- 58mm throttlebody (Last piece I have not yet acquired)


The exhaust setup that will be allowing this motor to breathe:

- Hooker 2055 headers and Y-Pipe. The next time the headers are removed I will be opening the flanges up now that I have a nice carbon blueprint on what to grind away
- 3" straight pipe dumping into 2x 2.5" out the back. Catalytic converter and muffler DELETE. Later down the road I might consider an electric cutout around the catalytic converter area for the ability to tune the exhaust length for higher RPM "on the fly".


Mods I currently have installed on my POS 310 flat tappet low compression longblock that will be getting swapped over to the 334:

- Aforementioned TPI setup
- Aforementioned exhaust setup
- Aluminum high flow waterpump
- Scorpion 1.5 full roller rockers
- BBK underdrive pullies


Future "Piddling" mods I have planned for the 334:

- ECM upgrade. Haven't decided yet. I am either going with a megasquirt setup or the 86+ upgrade. The archaic 85 ECM just isn't cutting it for my CURRENT tuning demands. Either way, the MAF setup is going in favor of MAP.
- Ram-Air "Boxes" and modified TPI airlid.
- Can't think of anything else right now but It's been a long day and I know I'm forgetting a few things.


Pretty much the goal here is to build a 305 that has been maxed out in terms of a street motor with an attractive torque curve, great mid-range and able to run on pump gas with NO power adders making 350ish RWHP and capable of mid to low 12s. The vehicle it is going into (The one from my build thread in the auto detailing and appearance forum) has already been equipped with a built 700R4, TSI 2800 stall converter and a built 10 bolt rear with 3.73 richmond gears.

Right now, as I mentioned almost all the intake/exhaust stuff has been done and I even have a few longblock goodies that can be re-used. As of last week I have also acquired the block itself. From my friend I picked up a very nice 42k ORIGINAL mile virgin roller block out of a 92 bird. It took 3 of us to drag it out of the back of his truck and carry it all of 200 feet into my backyard stopping to rest about 5 times along the way (This was before pistons, rods and crank removal). When I got it home and tore it down, the motor was ridiculously clean except for the #7 rings which were seized to the piston grooves and a badly scored #1 main bearing. However, both issues resulted in no damage to the block or any of the internals for that matter so the block is good to go.

If there is anything else beneficial to this build I haven't mentioned please feel free to chime in. I want this to be a no stone left unturned build.

That's it for now. Remember, SUBSCRIBE and BE PATIENT!

FireDemonSiC

Block:

FireDemonSiC

Intake:

cuisinartvette

Interesting..I get it.
Stroking it sounds like fun, thinking a 48mm TB will feed it fine.

Smoothing out your heads you probably wont see any gain but sure wont hurt anything. Pay attention to the short turn if anything

if youre digging into the intake carbides>cartridge rolls for good gains.

Keep us posted.

FireDemonSiC

Exhaust:

FireDemonSiC

Appreciate the approval.

I actually think 58mm might be a tad overkill, but I don't want to potentially limit anything. The thing I've learned about bottlenecks with cars unlike computers is that It's not about the single BIGGEST restriction but rather a compound of all the restrictions put together.

52mm would probably be just fine but I think the stock 48mm might be potentially leaving that unturned stone.

zraffz

Can't believe I'm the first one to say this... wasting money on a 305 lol.

Anyway, do your machine work after your bottom end. This way they can balanced it while they have it all and machine everything more precisely and give it the appropriate final hone.

FireDemonSiC

The bottom end kit I am going to buy is actually externally balanced like a 400. I am sure I could have the machine shop add heavy metal to the crank in order to achieve an internal balance but the stroker kit bears an increased price tag over the better known $700 POWERHOUSE kit due to the addition of the balancer and flexplate. I am going to call the machine shop and talk balancing prices to decide which would be the (slightly) cheaper route before pulling the trigger. Either way is fine with me as long as the motor remains properly balanced, although I would PREFER an internal balance.

Go find your nearest bridge/cliff with at least a 300 foot drop and jump off

cuisinartvette

Understand getting all you can but dont see where the gain would be on a 52. 334 is an improvement over 305 for sure but bet the 48 feeds it fine with room to spare thats all.

learned my lesson on big TBs and carbs/cams long ago. Kinda like cams choose one size smaller than you think youll want and youll be Ok.

FireDemonSiC

I forgot to mention. In order to make the power levels I am after the motor is going to need to spin high. With the 276XFI cam I am expecting a peak in the mid to high 5xxx rpm range and hold that peak until low to mid 6s.

dangerboy

iTrader: (1)

i am currently removing the 305 out of my 83TA so if a part of it can be of any use to you let me know. i live about 16 miles from you and would rather see it go to use than steel weight at a scrap yard.

shawn

FireDemonSiC

Thanks for the offer.

What kinds of mods has it had done to it? Does it have aftermarket heads? Unfortunately the stock bottom end I have no use for because the stroker kit uses a different crank, different rods and .030" over pistons.

What does your car look like? Every time I see a thirdgen around here I always wonder if they're a member on this board.

dangerboy

iTrader: (1)

no mods that i am aware of. i bought it because i wanted an easy home for a 350 i already had but have grown to love the car. it hasnt left my garage since i bought it last december but hopefully that will change soon. i too think that ive seen a member here everytime i see a local 3rd gen (which is not too often). i was in newport news last week for work however and i must have seen 10 3rd gen camaros in the 8 miles between the jobsite and the hotel.

FireDemonSiC

You have probably seen mine before. I drive it in the Dumfries/Woodbridge area daily. Frequent the stafford area and occasionally go into manassas.

It (was) white with gold GFX, smashed up front end and an exhaust you can hear a mile away.

Unfortunately, there isn't anything from a stock 305 I'll be able to use. Toss it on craigslist for a few hundred bones. I'm sure someone with a DD that has a blown motor will ****** it.

dangerboy

iTrader: (1)

you saying "was" makes me second guess myself but i remember seeing a white one on the parkway not far from 66 a few weeks ago. i expected to see alot once i actually owned one because thats how it always goes but ive probably only seen 3 between now and then.

shawn

FireDemonSiC

If it was an early model camaro, it might have been my friend who owns an 82. Here is how mine used to look:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...227_174032.jpg

It's been in the bodyshop since May and here is how it looks now (Getting re-assembled and released from "jail" this week):

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...1-post127.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...3-post128.html

1gary

I suggest the power curve on this would start very much like the days of old in the 265's.Say about 4,500 RPM.Right??. Or you have a different game plan for this??. Wouldn't you want Trick-Flo to 5 axis CNC port the heads because of how important it is telling them the intended use??. Then have them port match the intake??. I'm thinking to have that dead on right is a cornerstone of the build.

I'm not a 305 hater.All I am saying is when you build smaller c.i. engine,all the little things adding up become more critical.Stuff like u-shrouding the intake valve because of the bore size,etc.

1gary

Hot rodders improve on the production built engines.That is any production built engine.Innovation being very important part of that.So if I ask you questions about your build,it is a inquiry about tricks you may have found on 305's.Try to be not so defensive about 305's so maybe a free flow of info can be exchanged.

FireDemonSiC

The trickflow heads are pretty much going to be all the 334 needs right out of the box. I'm just going to cartridge roll inside the runner and valve bowl areas to smooth out the cast finish.

I would expect top-end power to begin really coming on around about 4500 and peak by mid to late 5s, however since this is going to be a 3.75" stroker motor with a TPI on top it is going to have more than enough torque under the curve for daily street use even with the 276 cam (Stroker motors can handle more duration without a significant midrange torque loss).

And pretty much the only way to get on my bad side in this thread is by doing what everyone else does and trying to convince me that the 305 is a waste of time and to build a 350.

1gary

Stroker motors also like alittle more duration on the exhaust side.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Are those factory TPI runners?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Trinten

Good for you man. I caught a fair amount of flack for sticking with the V8 swap in my Fiero instead of going with one of the other "more powerful, cheaper" swaps.

I can't tell you how things will work out with your cam, but I can tell you the right cam will do wonders for you. My near-peak HP starts around 4750-5k, but it STAYS up there till he let off the gas at 6750.

One of the things I did learn about cams, but is rarely talked about, is that while duration is important, the "ramp rate" of the cam is just as important (and often overlooked!), and if I am remembering right, having a roller block opens you up to have a pretty aggressive ramp rate.

Needless to say, subscribed.

FireDemonSiC

That is correct. Flat tappet cams have a mild ramp rate because they are unable to open the valve more aggressively without the lifter literally digging It's way into the sides of the cam lobes. Roller blocks also allow for much better lift numbers without having to employ 1.6 or 1.7 ratio rocker arms.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

kewl..youll,be running with the 327 guys..
a bit better the the 283 guys.. lets get that monster running would be kewl to see 350 hp

FireDemonSiC

FireDemonSiC

Bumping this thread to give everyone a 3 month progress update.

I finally got around to getting an engine stand that a friend donated and drug the block inside. It is now resting in my basement safe from the elements and in a month or two once my finances recharge just a LITTLE bit more, it will be going to the machine shop.

Also, around the month of april when tax returns come in I will be firing up my summit speed card and getting the stroker kit.

My cat seems pretty cozy sleeping under the block. Let's hope those bolts hold. LOL!

smgseanmicheal

iTrader: (1)

if you can find vandervell bearings the shop I worked in preferred them and as far as pistons what brand were you looking at and if you can find them with a stock skirt length (chevy knew what they were doing) probe pistons are lighter but have a short skirt that I dislike personally. I like the idea of taking a 305 and seeing what it can do we already know what a 350 can do.

cuisinartvette

If it were me Id probably spend a little time in the bowls and the short turn
Do you know the CSA of the heads?

Those runners can use plenty more porting now that you got it siamesed get in there with a carbide and go to town theres plenty of metal in there

The entry to the plenum-probably wont make a difference but sometimes like to cut out the center divider abotu 1/8 or so above that V peak

48mm is plenty you arent leaving anything on the table. Will be nice and snappy too.

cuisinartvette

If it were me Id probably spend a little time in the bowls and the short turn
Do you know the CSA of the heads?
(before mentioning anything about the pinch)

Those runners can use plenty more porting now that you got it siamesed get in there with a carbide and go to town theres plenty of metal in there

The entry to the plenum-probably wont make a difference but sometimes like to cut out the center divider abotu 1/8 or so above that V peak

48mm is plenty you arent leaving anything on the table. Will be nice and snappy too.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Subscribed!

avangeline

Hot rodders improve on the production built engines.

FireDemonSiC

Pardon my ignorance but what does CSA stand for? I still have much to learn in terms of performance engine building. There's a few books I have my eyes on I am going to invest in before starting.

The siamese in the runners has already been hogged to high heaven. What else did you have in mind? I was thinking of an extrude hone but $$$$$$$$$!

As for the 58mm throttlebody, I think I might settle for a 54. I know a 48mm will feed the motor fine but my logic to a bigger TB was part throttle airflow due to the fact that this is a street car. Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the engine be able to flow better and give better response with a 54/58 at part throttle vs a 48 at part throttle?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Honestly, get a internally balanced kit. I saw in a later post you said you want to spin it high to make the power. You'll be glad you went internal..

FireDemonSiC

They don't make that kit internally balanced. My only option is to spend extra money at the machine shop having heavy metal added to the crank.

The absolute highest I see it being spun is 6500rpm and that is being generous by at least 2 or 300rpm. What would be so bad about getting externally balanced?

cuisinartvette

Think of external balance like tying a rock to the end of a string. Faster you spin it-eventually somethings gonna give. Kinda like what a chick will do to your finances LOL
If the rpm stays low external is probably ok but if youre going to beat on it and you might wanna get the internal balance.



High heaven? Those runners are barely even scuffed!! it ends after a few inches then its bone stock . The siamesing can help a litte and I see some was removed from the floor then it all stops- overall ID of the whole piece needs to be increased to pick up total airflow. IMO taking the wall down is just providing you access to get to the real meat and potatoes of the work Think guys, without knowing better go nuts on some huge opening leave the rest then get disappointed when the car is really no faster if any at all.
CSA=cross sectional area of head

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Get your pistons before machine work. Most good macine shops I have delt with bore to match the intended pistons.

I read your disclaimer, and am interested, however I did not see one thing,

Why?

Why are you set on a 305? What is your goal?

Blk91Firebird

Subscribed. Keep it up bud

FireDemonSiC

I am in the middle of a job transition right now. I have parted ways with the dead end job AKA advance auto parts and in the process of becoming hired at a car dealership with a position on the sales floor.

I have decided 2013 to be the year big things go into motion. I want to move into my place and major to be an electrical engineer.

I do have a very strong prior sales/retail background though so if I land this job, I am thinking of quickly building the motor before I don't have time for it anymore. Everyone keep their fingers crossed because if things play out the way I am hoping for, it could be fully assembled and IN THE CAR before the end of this year.

Blk91Firebird

I actually got more done on my cars while I was in college. Helped to relieve stress when the workload got to be too much, even if I did miss out on alot of sleep Good luck!

Anti-Venom

So why a 305? Just to be obscure and say that you did it? I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, it just seems...well uh...counterintuitive, perplexing, and illogical.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Repeated for you:

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Iread his disclaimer, he stated what he did not want to hear from everyone as to why he should not build a 305. But it is never stated why he wants to build a 305.

I think the OP should at least say what his goals or reasoning is, before he attacks people that say its not the best idea.

I understand there are reasons for building something different, heck in the world of LS swaps just sticking with a TPI is a stupid move in some peoples eyes. For me I wanted to stay with TPI for a few reasons, one being the originality of the car, not too mention tpi looks cool.

I had a hot rod inline 6 in my old pick up, sure it would have been cheaper to swap a v8 and I did at one point, but the 6 with headers and a 4 barrel were cool and different.


Obviously the OP has a reason for why he is sticking with a 305. I am curious what that reason is.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Why does a dog lick his *****?


Seriously, it doesn't bother me one bit not knowing why.
I'm very interested how he makes out with this. Sometimes you learn new things when odd restraints are imposed. Look at the innovations and extreme measures that NHRA Stockers have come up with working within rules like max valve lift of .450'ish on LT1 engines when we all know they really want .700" lift.
I wouldn't be doing this, but I think it's cool that someone else is.

NBMIROC

Not to be an ***, but this is the same approach that most of the import guys go .(civic and integra drivers). Throw money and time into something that isn;t close to worthwhile.

Your car and your money, I get it, jump a cliff har har. Just such a waste going to all that trouble for something that'll still be slower than a bolt on L98.

TheGr8erG00d

iTrader: (2)

Why are you still posting? Read the opening post. He explicitly asks not to receive the usual 305 bashing.Troll a different thread.

As one of the 305 guys, I'm interested to see where this goes.

FireDemonSiC

Thank you to the members defending me.

As for the reason why I want to build a 305, it's because nobody does it (I understand why for those of you who don't like to read) and because I can. I also insinuated a great deal of sentimental attachment to the 305 for the exact reason people are coming in this thread crapping on it despite the fact that I POLITELY asked not to. So I see a good deal of people either can't read or just aren't bothering to before jumping on the hate the 305 and call the builder an idiot bandwagon.

And slower than a bolt on L98? Are you kidding me? You guys are morons.

I realize I stand a good chance of falling a tad short of 350 REAR-WHEEL horsepower mark. Possibly landing in the 320ish range. But if you think a BOLT-ON L98 makes these numbers, you obviously have not done your homework. It is common for an overbored 355 with 195 AFR heads sporting 2.02 valves, a pretty radical cam and a siamesed TPI to make in the neighborhood of 350ish +/- TO THE WHEEL. That is not a farcry off from my goal with a smaller bore size sporting less head than these motors have.

Why is everyone always interested in being the FASTEST? That is not my intention with this car. Everything I have done and will do to this Z are strictly for me myself and I. I very rarely go to the track, and do this solely as a hobby not to make a name for myself. If you think 320 - 350rwhp is a shame just because it is done with a 305, I advise you to promptly exit the gearhead world because it is asshats like you that ruins the fun for the rest of us.

Who cares what someone decides to do with their time and money as long as it is done right and it makes THEM happy. If I get tired of the engine the way I build it and it starts to feel slow again, I will still have a very nice, strong engine to move further with and can always go forced induction/laughing gas.

Anti-Venom

I don't think anyone is purposely trying to "crap" on your build, rather they're trying to help you. Your right, ultimately it's your cash, and your decision. I can respect that. Waste it as you wish.

It has nothing to do with being the fastest. It does have everything to do with math, empirical data, economics, logical reasoning, and physics to name a few. As most are aware, 350 blocks are plentiful and cheap. Look the same, and provide a better return. I can't tell you how many people I've seen do what your doing, for the same reasons only to eventually wastefully spend the same cash twice for a rotating assembly later on.

So if you post a build "publicly" on an open forum, doing things backwards, where everyone is free to excersize their opinion. Then you better come prepared with thick skin.

It amazes me the people that will spend $1400 on the best heads, $400 on a cam, $1500 on the bottom end. And stop short of a $300 engine block. Purposefully engineering in a restriction. Think of building a 383, then running stock log manifolds on it? Or maybe a peanut cam. Because you were emotionally attached to those two pieces of cast iron.

Likewise if top hp isn't a concern. Larger cubes facilitate broader torque, a milder cam, and better driveability.

True, there is a certain novelty to seeing what an uncommon build will yield. We're not building an ultra competitive class cheater here by a pro-builder, or re-inventing the wheel. The 305 has been around a long time. A google search will show results of what you can do with one in any number of configurations.
I hope that about covers it, because now I still have a cliff to jump off of. You've obviously made it clear your aware of the stubborn endevour you've undergone. Are willing to accept the financial consequences. So I agree, going forwards everyone should leave you to it.

FireDemonSiC

And why build a 383? I'm still restricting myself compared to going with a 400s 4.125" bore size and 2.05+ valves.

I commend you on trying to assemble an intelligent response to facilitate your backhanded points, but at the end of the day you still don't seem to understand the proper usage of "your" and "you're".

It's cool. Hate on. Power to you

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Because you can build a 383 for less then a 400, or a 305.

I wasn't trying to hate, just curious, and I understand your emotional
attachment to the 305.

I know there are some fast 305's on thus board.