I have $500 and a stock LT1 that already breaths well..

intake and exhaust are taken care of.

The motor was 260 stock in the caddy it came out of.

Is it safe to assume that without a catalytic converter, a 3" exhaust, and an all metal cold air intake that it's maybe closer to 275 with a good tune? or is that wishful thinking?

Basically.... i have $500 to put towards MOTOR parts... internals... I'd like to make a SOLID 300-350hp minimum .


we talkin cams?
stroker crank?
what do i need.

please don't send me links telling me to talk to so n so or call this or that place. i assume you have already done all of that and got the answers, so just help me out.


Links to PRODUCTS are welcomed

thx

 

i have a freind run a cammed fbody lt1 with supporting mods, tune, slp ls1 air box, and ported lt1 heads in his car making 375 with a dyno tune.

i say find some cheap lt1 heads on craigslist and get a tune if you can for $500

that amount of money isnt much to work with. an engine isnt something you skimp out on and make faulty decisions.
so either wait till you have some more breathing room or spend it run it and get possibly poor results because you couldnt finish your project properly.

 

Find a used cam and get new springs. Not much to do with 500

 

Then you need another 350-500 for the tune

 

pod..... i have that budgeted as well outside of what i have budgeted for the parts...

 

For $500 , you CAN'T go into the motor, except for possibly new valvesprings and rockers. Springs are cost effective; rockers probably not.
If your 300-350 hp goal is at the motor, you're already there with a good PCM tune combined with your exhaust and intake if the motor is mechanically healthy. I put down 309 RWHP with my B-body LT1 with no internal motor mods; only better valvesprings and 1.6 rockers.

 

what CI is the caddy motor?

 

94-96 Fleetwoods (D-body) ran the same 350 ci, 260 hp, LT1 that the B-bodies (Caprice, ImpalaSS, & Roadmaster) got.

 

cool.. yeah, that's what i like to hear - 300-350 if it breaths and has a good tune without doing anything to it.

i was going to ask about 1.6 rockers v stock and if they would help performance, so glad you covered that as well. before i posted this, i considered that as the first option.

cuis, yeah, 86 is right.. 5.7 LT1 iron heads iron block..


oooh.... yeah... forgot .. i'm using the stock lt1 manifolds. so, it COULD breath better



but that's more than 500 bux for a minimal improvement.


i guess what this post was about is:

can i get 30hp from a cam for $300

or 10hp for used headers for $300

or 5hp from rockers for 400?

i see cam shafts all day long for around $300 and, im NOT paying a mechanic to put it in.. my step dad is a master mechanic and has been helping me out with this. my dad, is an auto body master craftsman, and will help me with the exterior... and... me, i own a motorcycle repair and restoration shop..

so i guess with paying for labor out of the question,

does the answer stay the same 86?

but... if i put a cam in, i need springs, lifters, rods, rockers and accompanying crap as well obviously, but may be able to just do cam and lifters, but would be cutting it really damn close to 500 if not over by 100 or so...


idk.. any other thoughts?

 

Oh.....I didn't realize you're still running stock manifolds. In that case, you won't gain much at all with a cam swap until you get some headers on it.
A cam with the stock manifolds will not get you 30 hp. Headers first!
Is this for your '91 RS? Stock stall and gears? Be aware that a higher stall torque converter is pretty much mandatory with a cam swap. More bang for the buck with the converter than with the cam. Are you getting my drift?......forget about the cam swap until you've upgraded the higher priority areas of the car
I've been 12.3's in a 3925 lb B-body with the stock cam.

 

lt4 cam used on ebay goes for around 150-200 dollars . that a tune an the right valve springs for the cam ought to net you close to 400 hp i would think

 

both good points...

As for the car, yeah the 91, and i'm running the 4L60E that was originally attached to the LT1 from factory, which has never been separated from the motor.

If i remember correctly, it seems like the 4L60e shifts a little differently from the 700R4 by nature, but i dont remember how it feels really.

i do know that the 700r4 i had shifted what i would consider to be wayyyyyyyyyy too early.. but i think the other one is more performance based.

As far as getting a stall, yeah i know it's necessary, but for my own knowledge, wouldn't tuning the shift points be almost as beneficial? granted, it would be the same stall, but could get more rpm out of each gear.

?????



as for the LT4 cam, yeah that seems like a good option and i've looked at it, but the main thing is, beyond power, i also want an aggressive loping 5 legged horse with rabies sound coming out from under the car.

stock lt4 won't necessarily have that, but, would definitely add more power..

hmmmm...

 

ok so this is 80 over my budget but...... seems like a really damn good deal considering what it includes

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Pe...03b9ed&vxp=mtr


but i stil agree with the headers / stall convertor / rear end / suspension etc issue i'll have...

thing is..........

despite the stall converter issue, i have to have this motor tuned... i'd rather tune it once with all the crap i need in it rather than tune it, then mod it then tune it...

BUT....... i guess if i put a stall converter in it in a few months i'll probably need to have it re-tuned for shift points anyway right???

argg ... ?

 

stock lt1 cam wont have that either.

 

hence why i wanna change it haha

aside from power gains obviously

 

will ANY small SBC headers work on the LT1 ? or do i need to find LT1 headers?

I can find 350 headers all day long for dirt *** cheap, and can sand blast and powder coat them in house.

 

lt 1 engine with lt4 cam an borla exhaust :

 

hmm.... yeah that's pretty mean....

 

Converter stall and shift points or gearing are really two totally different areas.
On this website, there's a pretty good explanation of what a higher stall TC does for you: www.converter.cc
That Hotcam kit is a good deal, BUT.......your car will be a dog at low revs and from a dig when you combine that with the stock TC.

If considering used cams, ZZ3/ZZ4 cams show up for sale once every couple of months for $75 to $100 and are more of an upgrade than the stock LT4 cam.

Any cam with a noticeable lope, ie. Hotcam or bigger, combined with stock stall and gearing will NOT result in an enjoyable ride.

You won't need to re-tune after installing a higher stall converter. Just make sure to tell the tuner that you plan on it in the future so he can put the "stall wall" fix in it that will prevent it from going into limp mode when launching with a ~3200 or higher converter with sticky tires.

 

You're getting a lot of good advice. It's easy to hit 350-400hp with an LT4 or bigger cam swap, but your car isnt set up to handle that and it will be awful to drive. You need the right gears, the right stall, and a real exhaust system to get ANYTHING from a cam swap. Without full exhaust, stall, and gears (what gears does your car have? 2.73s?) you will probably LOSE power, either measured or perceived, and the car will definitely be slower than it is stock.

Set the car up first, then do cams.

 

I've seen used roller cams go for around $100 on Ebay or classifieds and such. Honestly I'd just save up the money and get a new one. You're talking under $500 for cam/springs/gaskets and a little more to replace the lifters as well.

You can have it tuned by pcmforless.com for around $100 plus shipping. As long as you stay mild with the cam it'll run great and have around 350 fwhp.

 

yes, definitely a lot of useful info...

ok.. i completely agree with you guys. no sense in messing with the motor until the rest of the car is built up... im running stock gears on the stock rear end, stock tranny, etc...

so.... putting a stall converter in it would definitely be a leap forward.. it wont get my the aggressive sound i'm longing for, but... it will definitely get me started on the platform.

so...

given this is a STREET car not a drag car.... i don't need a 10000000rpm stall converter, i need to be able to take off normally at stop lights without having to nearly redline the motor.

so... 2400 stall ????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-M-GM-TH700...194835&vxp=mtr

3200 stall?

what do i need - also assuming that i WILL end up putting all the other crap on this car that we've talked about as funds come in... cam etc...

and yeah, i have read the articles about how stall converters work, why they work, what makes them stall what stall is etc etc...

just wondering which one to get that would benefit me most given current gear and future and what my plans are for the car overall..

thx

 

The best converter you could get that would work great with the stock cam and still be enough for most any streetable cam in the future is a Yank SS3600.
It's arguably the best street/strip converter ever made for the 700R/4L60.
Whatever you do, DON'T waste your money on any stock diameter converter; they offer very little gain. Go for the 9.5" units; they typically start about 2800 stall speed.
Watch for used ones. Yank SS series is best for performance and driveability.
Vigilante is great quality, but equivalent stall rating feels slightly looser than the Yank SS in daily driving; I'd limit stall to about 3400 in a Vigilante. Edge is good value for the money, but looser still; 3200 would be a prudent limit in an Edge. Coan is about the same quality and driveability as Vigilante. These numbers I'm throwing out there are for aggressive street/ mild strip. Adjust as necessary to your taste/goals.
I've heard good things about Circle D, but have no experience with them.
I ran a Yank SS3600 in a 3900-4000 lb car with the stock LT1 B-cam and it had the best driveability of all the TC's I had in it and ran 1.59-1.62 60' times; it will be even better in a lighter car.

 

hmm.... sooooooooooooooooo vigilante is claming on their website that: "There is a gain of 40-50 horsepower at the rear wheels due to increased torque multiplication with (their) 9 ½ and 10½ lock-up models."

you agree to that????????? i'm skeptical...

 

well, coan and edge are both within my budget... and.. i think a stall converter would definitely liven up the existing setup and would be a good building platform.

 

Nope that's not right. The increased performance may be the equivalent of adding 40-50 hp, only because the higher stall converter can better keep the engine in its powerband.

 

Well... hp is torque x RPM. Torque converters do multiply torque, so I can imagine there would be a gain of perhaps that much lower in the RPM range. Your peak hp would stay the same or go theoretically lower due to slippage I imagine, but the curve as a whole may show a net gain, it just wont be a gain at peak hp. When they say 300hp at 5000 RPM, there's also 150hp at 1500 RPM too... So perhaps theres potentially a 40-50hp gain in certain parts of the RPM range. Still doesnt QUITE make sense in my head... but if you're talking wheel horsepower based on RPMs, it's possible that you get more torque to the ground early on and you could spin it that way I guess.

The engine itself is going to be making the same power but regardless the power will be distributed to the ground much better.

 

A chassis inertia dyno such as a Dynojet won't show a gain in hp anywhere on the hp curve with a higher stall converter. If it does show higher, it was because that converter is higher quality/efficiency, not because it has a higher stall rating. The dyno calculates power delivered to the drum based on the inertia of the drum and the measured acceleration of it. It then back-calculates torque, and what you see on your graph is an inflated torque curve at the lower rpm's because it uses power delivered to the drum and rpm at the ENGINE, not rpm at the drum.
Back to what I said earlier: the dyno won't show it, but you'll be putting more power to the ground over a given time or distance on the street or track.
IF the dyno plotted hp versus time instead of vs rpm, THEN it would show you true performance picture. In that case, the hp vs time curve WOULD in fact show more area under the curve.

 

Man here we are again slamming cams and ignoring SRC's/DCR's. Do you guys read the other posts about that??. If the purposed cam is a match for the SCR than ok.But if it is too big for the SCR than all your doing is forcing the a/f back into the intake with too big of a duration/overlap. THAT is how it works guys!!!.

You need to consider as you move up in stall it creates more heat. So you need to take care of business with a aftermarket tranny cooler and or a fan for the same. These trannies are not going to show you back all the love if you don't. Number one enemy is heat for these trannies.

 

Gee thanks WOW for setting us all straight on that
Did you read the first line of the thread? We're not talking about a high CR race motor here! You can assume stock CR, ok? The LT1 cam he has will present no mismatch; surely you will agree with that since you're schooled on the subject. Then again I don't know, with a comment like "if it is too big for the SCR than all your doing is forcing the a/f back into the intake with too big of a overlap".... ...I think you meant IVC event

Credit to you for the warning about heat from a higher stall though.
We could talk about which converters need it and which don't, but yes, the safest path for him would be to just buck up and put a good cooler on it. I forget about that a lot with the F-cars since the external + radiator cooler is stock on the B-bodies.

 

Read the edit. Tough to teach huh...........

 

B-body lt1 swap with bolt-ons got me about 320hp at the crank based on my trap speed and race weight measured at the drag strip. My car was converter unlocked the whole way and shifting at 6k which wasn't optimal for a internally stock bbody lt1.

PCM was commanding shifts at 5400rpm but it wasn't happening.

I don't think the lt4 hot cam is too large for a stock converter. Plenty of lt1 guys do it with just bolt ons and the cam kit. Though it only results in about 315-330rwhp on average. Some m6 cars have dyno'd higher though.

$500 will barely be enough. You don't just need the cam, you need springs that can handle it too. And it will not like a cam and stock manifolds. Then throw in the price of a mail order tune.......things add up fast.

For $500 focus on external boltons. I'll post a link to my bolt on b-body lt1 swap in a second. Get the foundation set then go for power.

13.35 @ 103 on very crappy street tires. 3770lb race weight.

 

3600 stall converters are known for bucking and kicking because of the cheap torque converters. Get a GOOD converter and I would bet $20 you'de enjoy it problem-free. I personally jumped from a Hughes 2500 (that I didn't even use and still have BRAND NEW) to a Circle D 4200. Not saying you should, but I AM saying - don't get so caught up on the stall number. Quality affects everything in a converter.

I'd change to a quality converter before changing the camshaft, but that's me.

 

LT1's are pretty high compression from the factory. They're not exactly your grandpappy's farm truck v8. They have a lot of potential with just cam swaps, even very large cams. I think the stock compression ratio is in the 10.5 range, plenty for even moderate cams. Will the heads support that? Probably not as efficiently as aftermarket heads but cammed LT1's can really scoot.

 

I definately agree that if you go with the converter, get a good quality built one. I learned my lesson and it cost me. Driving around now with a cheap crappy stall converter just to get the car back driveable, spent enough money with the previous crap converter that I could have bought a very good converter once and never had problems.

If you cant afford it now, wait a couple of weeks until you can.

 

Op said 260 ci
400hp not going to happen with a cam

 

Go back and read the whole thread before you make a comment like that.

 

No, he didn't.
"I have $500 and a stock LT1...."
"The motor was 260 stock in the caddy it came out of." ...that's 260 stock HP The Caddy (Fleetwood) came only with the LT1, not available with the L99 4.3L (externally looked identical to an LT1) that was common in the plain jane Caprices.

 

Ok, LT1 + cam wont see 400 lol

 

At the crank ?

 

Jasonshort on cz28 made near 380rwhp on a stock head stock shortblock lt1 with a custom solid roller cam back in 2004 or so. 380rwhp is wayyyyyy over 400 at the crank.

Cc306 and gm847 cam bolt on guys regularly see 350-370 rwhp and about 350lbft. Most of the higher dynod cars are M6 cars.

 

The horse or the cart first when you talking about a t/c purchase. The power curve
normally dictates what the stall of a t/c should be and not trying to fit a cam to the t/c.

 

I'm well aware of what they are capable of, I was trying to see if that clown was as foolish as I suspected, or if he was gonna say over 400 at the wheels wasnt going down with just a cam.

 

Who are you calling a clown?

A stock LT1 engine with just adding a LT4 cam will not make 400 chp
puny cam in a stock motor .

100hp gain dont think so!

 

You said "with a cam" you didnt specify an LT4 cam, learn to read and communicate, or at least try not to cover up your lack of knowledge by going back and picking a specific cam after the fact.

Yes 400+ at the crank is easily attainable in an LT1 with a cam.

 

No, but a big cam + LT1 is a proven combo. People have been getting close and beyond 400hp with Vortec heads for a while, and LT1 heads are similar. The thing is the LT1 has a great intake for high RPM power. 400 is probably near the limit of what can be obtained and stay streetable, and includes minor bolt ons, but a stock intake, stock heads LT1 CAN get in the 400fwhp range. Those things can really move. They were blessed with a high compression ratio and a short runner intake that just loves big cams.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-mo...-i-expect.html

325-350 rwhp from the LT4 hotcam swap, and that's a pretty old, tame cam. Many people go with bigger, more aggressive modern roller cams and get even more power.

 

360rw is plenty common with cams that are definetly not tiny, but still streetable and off the shelf.

Thats around 420 crank.

 

You wouldnt want to drive it either plus youre almost guaranteed a bottom end failure the bottom end failure with the rpm youd need to do it.

You dont have 1 clue about my experience.
Ill say this I dont get it from reading internet fantasy builds.

 

Come on guys, add information pertaining to the thread and stop cluttering the thread with useless banter on who thinks they know more.

 

You are quite a fool if you are trying to dispute the numerous 350/360rwhp cc306 cammed stock heads LT1's