eblove911

So I have a brother in law that races cars imports him and his friends....I like pure american muscle. I am on my 7th Camaro third gen. I have a 1990 RS that had a 305 v8 in it. I purchased it with a rod knocking was told a tensioner but i knew better. Pulled motor and the crank was shot decided to build a 350 since it bolts right up. I looked and saw a magazine article about the "chump change challange" 350.
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...d/viewall.html
thats the link. Thats my goal. Mad horsepower a guy has a 1989 350 from a truck he is selling me for $420 so I have a motor 5.7litre. I found the 190cc head for $630 basically. I found the 7.4" push rods. I can't find the cam or anything else they used. Not including the motor I'm going with $1500 budget. I'm going to build my first v8 and if anyone can give me a list of parts and links I would appreciate it. They also say go carb but my 305 was tbi not sure what to do there either? Come on Thirdgeners HELP ME OUT!!!!

DeltaElite121

$1,500 will make a decent motor if you know how to play your cards perfectly. Don't assume pushrods will work just because something/someone told you they would... always measure, or you might find out you've got issues that cost you MORE money with nothing to show for it.


Here's the thing: I could give you a build/list of parts all day long. I'm not going to do that, and nobody here did that for me (nor did I want them to). We can guide you, but we will not spoonfeed you. You need to learn what works with these motors and what doesn't so you REMEMBER it and don't just go parroting misinformation like so many others do.

Here's my information for you: You must balance the combination of heads, cam, and intake. Peak power means almost nothing; it's about average horsepower across the RPM's. It's also about balancing your compression ratio with your internals and tuning/timing so you get the best performance while still running pumpgas effectively without detonation. There are many, many ways and directions you can go. The question is - what do YOU want to do with YOUR car?

If you have any specific questions, then ask them.. but asking for a build list is not the way to learn things properly. Research will make you the builder you want to be. Learn from other people's successes and mistakes, and you'll find a short budget will work properly provided you play smart.

ksith

I second what delta has said. That and If you want to beat a modern ***** done correctly you will need more then just engine. A good suspension set up is in order as well as rear end. If you're going for the twisties then you're going to need good brakes too. On a road coarse it's better to be the last one to slow down the first one through the corner and the fastest up to speed. That takes good brakes, good suspension and a good motor with enough torque to push your car up to speed. Good luck with your build and I hope it all goes well.

zraffz

Don't believe everything you read. Magazine articles seem to be the biggest offenders because they are trying to compete with other magazine companies.

You should never take a higher mileage motor and bolt new heads on it. With Pro Comp heads, you get what you pay for. That cam would probably like to see 6,400ish RPMs (btw it's part # 01-418-8] which is just a ticking time bomb.

Can you build a $1,500 350 and make 400 horsepower? Probably but I'd bet somewhere in your near future you'll be needing a tow truck.

NotsosleepyZ

ive fallen for it im following one from super chevy for my 305 although it wasnt cheap, in hind sight (and this is before ive even bolted anything on) i shoulda just built a 350 and followed sound advice, first thing i noticed was the heads they recomended and suggested a more aggresive cam could be used (which i ordered) had to much lift for the heads thankfully i noticed and ordered the heads with the proper valve springs... then i noticed they were calling the pistons in an 87 "lg4" with roller rockers dished (which i later found they stopped using in 84

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

get a decent modern pullout engine.. the whole engine. Run it as is and hope it works. If it's not healthy, rebuild it stock.

Thats about the best way to make it happen. an LT1 is a good option, as is a Vortec L31, or an L98.

DeltaElite121

considering Lloyd Elliot and Ai's achievements with stock LT1 heads, I definitely think this is a good idea.

1gary

Dated but entertainment value when you have time to read it.

http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html

108 comic book combos

zraffz

Best bang for the buck that I've built was defiantly rebuilt 350 (roller block; polish crank, hone, new rings/bearings) with vortec heads (valve job, screw in studs) and an XR276HR cam. In a 1990 Camaro RS with 3.73s, a built 700R4 and a 2,400 stall it lights up the tires through 1st, 2nd and sometimes into 3rd and has a very solid pull.

eblove911

So I placed a ad on craigslist for a motor and picked up a 1989 5.7litre 350 from a camaro originally then placed in a truck changed the pan to the truck one, so I know I need to change it back. Got it for $450 the intake and all minus acessories. I will need to get a tbi since my 305 one the injectors are too small I researched. I need to find a prom also. I was told I can just buy the rebuild kit for $280 off ebay. Then $150 for the crank kit from the same company. Oh I got a set of long tube headers one has a weld that needs to be cleaned up and fixed but it came with motor. I am so lost on the cam to chose or heads. My brother in law soon as he saw it said even with $1500 budget 400 hp still I need 200 more to match his supra but I just want it as a beast. I has the stock 700r4 might get asmart shift kit? Just never seen a thirdgen with paddle shifters automatic or not. But so far this motor is first. I'm thinking the rebuild kit so I KNOW the bottom is good. that's $500 of budget then intakes idk I looked they $250.And heads are $650 anywhere assembled not sure how to know if compatible. Taking advice and researching. LOL more ?'s after looking than answers. Oh a member said he has the prom for $50 shipped. So far I got $50 left over if I'm doing this right? Not buying anything still "window shopping" Hearing more advice so input appreciated. Called the seller he owns a speed shop the bottom is warrantied to be good so maybe not going to touch it now so that'll help with tbi unit and anything else. So chime in on some good cams heard a lot of comp pro??? xr276hr??

hjsmith00843

Let me know if you need a TBI unit. My motor is the zz4 motor that currently has the TBI installed. Think it came from a truck. I will sell it for next to nothing when I switch over to carb. in the coming few weeks.

eblove911

I looked at the motor and I found the casting number on it to be 10054727 which after some research turns out to be a 4 bolt main canadian 350 5.7litre. It has the headers also. so I will load pics and show what i'm starting with. Can only put three pics at a time i think though.

eblove911

Here's my shopping list so far for my
5.7 litre 350 block#10054727
Original heads 14102193 swirl port heads
Intake for tbi also

So for me I'm looking at these options
Camshaft lifter kit $175 xe268 flat tappet
Intake $180 sbc polished dual plane up to 6500rpm mid rise
180 degree firing order 1500-6500 top end horsepower
Hei distributor $60 efi
Heads 2.02 vortec heads $600 brand new pair with accessory holes
$500 46mm tbi with adapter plate and all injectors
650cfm unit thinned shaft custom built can choose 50,80 or 90lb Injectors
Custom built.
So far that's my $1500 but I know I have headers but saw they aren't too expensive for others and not sure what hp it'll bring at all lol maybe someone could help me with that?
All this stuff I found is through eBay

T/Aperformance

Since you are on a tight budget Are you looking at free or cheep HP from port matching the intake and heads followed by some polishing.

eblove911

I am just bolting everything on it says that it all will go together no issues from what I was told by the salesmen. Once I found a part I was told it would all match up fine. As is so far I have reached my $1500 budget but I know I will order new headers to match exhaust. I know I need a new timing setup also so guess the budget needs to rise to what $2000 to include exhaust a 350 prom there's a guy pming me says $50 shipped.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

That would be the way to go. These cars are computer controlled and therefore extremely sensitive. A custom prom would do wonders.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

If you are looking for a starter tune you can use this prom and I will price match. There would be more to gain with going with dynamic efi ebl or data loging and tuning yourself of course.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...sion-prom.html

CreativeIndy

iTrader: (1)

If I'm not mistaken that engine you have is a factory roller block... would make no sense to switch to flat tappet cam from roller cam. You can get an LT4 hotcam which is a good choice upgrade from quite a few TGO members for roughly 25.00 more(I got mine from Jegs for 199.99) than the cam you listed and you should be able to resuse your roller lifters in the engine already. There is no way I would go from a roller cam/lifter to flat tappet.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

+1,000,000

No way do you run a flat tappet if you have the option of running a cheap OEM roller cam setup.

eblove911

I have researched every 10054727 block and on ebay even they all look to be non rollers. so I have no choice but flat tappet. Only issue is that I cant find a single ad or anything online that shows a flat tappet build on a 350 that was a good build. When I take the intake and timing chain off today I will post pictures I'm seeing this to the end. I CAN'T FIND INFO ANYWHERE. So I'm shocked bc race engines use the flat tappet applications I read also.

DeltaElite121

Solid flat tappets, yes. Hydraulic flat tappets are not impressive. They are a compromise on everything with no benefits whatsoever outside of catering to those who are too lazy to check and adjust their valves... Which should periodically be done on all motors, regardless of cam type or profile.

eblove911

So I found on eBay a flat tappet top end kit for $925 comes with 200 aluminum heads basically vortec the intake seems to be like the dual plane type no center bolt no cam or lifters though. I never got response on the other items so that's why I'm still looking. I'm ready to buy parts though get this thing going.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

That's because roller cams are a "newer" type of cam. Flat tappet is old school.

CreativeIndy

iTrader: (1)

# 10054727
350 TBI
engine block casting (350 87 or later, 2 or 4 bolt main, single piece rear main, made in Canada or US)

Correct. 10054727 is a non roller block 87 and later out of a truck. I forgot not all 87+ are roller blocks. This casting happens to be one of them.

Drac0nic

This seems somewhat disjointed. Do you know if your engine is healthy? That's a biggie no use replacing one blown up engine for another.

Second, I would probably count on puking the 700 at some point. Just saying.

Third, I would be looking for an intake on the secondary market. ZZ4 take off, Performer RPM or the air gap variant or a similar knock off. Bet you can save ~100 by looking on craigslist for it. Get a chunk of hard wood and make your self an adapter plate with some drills/hole saws.

Do the headers you have even fit your application? There are a lot of headers out there. Just saying. Find a buddy to weld em up for a 12 pack and run em if they fit. Probably the simplest power you'll dig out of this engine quite frankly.

Cam wise, the XE or a Voodoo cam will probably give the best power. Some people don't like them due to aggressive lobes on the cam and eating lobes/lifters. Have no opinion myself I've run Summit cams in the past or OEM rollers.

I'd probably get a TPI/Walbro fuel pump and home brew an adjustable FPR. It's easy enough to do and will extend the usable range of your injectors.

Lastly, on head swapping I'll take some heat for this probably but back cut the valves, get a good valve job done and leave them be. They flow ~180 CFM stock and if you got to the 190s you'd have a shot at 400hp. I would realistically expect somewhere in the mid 300s though if everything falls into place.

One other thing don't get envious of the guy who's faster. Someone will always be that guy. Don't care who. My buddy built a 2JZ powered Lexus IS300, it made 690 at the wheels when fully tuned. He also had 15-18K into it. A Supra by its self is well over 12X your budget for a decent sample. That excludes modifying and its expenses. The long block may be stock in his car, but he could easily still have 40K wrapped up into it.

eblove911

Thank you for that info yeah I'm not looking to be the fastest but just aggressive sounding and reliable. His eats up three dollars in town at every stop light. On the highways it's decent but in town kills him. I was looking for vortec heads and A guy has them 30mins away but he wanted 175 I told him if I have him deliver them I'd pay 200 he came back with he has the same exact motor rebuilt by a tech school with vortec heads 875 of work done to them bored over and a 270 cam flat tappet block like mine no carb or intake though for 300 for it all!? I still have the 305 it needs the crank I already had bought to be installed to be complete. Then the 10054727 flat tappet motor I was about to build its still stock I paid 450 for that. Those two basically can be backups but he is offering 300 for his setup just need to ring the pistons that was going to be the next project for the class but he took his motor back. Should I get this setup? I mean the heads alone they said 300 was top for used ones but these are refurbished already machined block and all just need to put intake like u said in it and a carb I guess what to do

CreativeIndy

iTrader: (1)

Hell shame you don't live closer, I could have sold ya a low miles, complete running, L98 roller long block with mild cam, full TPI and all the front accessory's including a new smog pump and Alt for 300. Hell, I would just give someone the engine if they yanked it out and helped me slide my new 383 back in.

I did the same thing you did here back in Jan of this year. I got my Iroc with the original motor in pieces. To get it on the road I went for cheap as possible since the holidays blew most of my parts cash. I had a budget of 1200 to find a reliable running 350. I ended up going a tad over that, but in the end I still ended up with a reliable daily driven motor with decent power above stock.

I bought a 1989 TPI block off of craigslist for 350 complete, minus TPI setup. First thing I did was took the block to a machine shop and had both heads cleaned and checked, had 3 angle valve job, new guides, seals and .600 lift springs. I bought a set of .030 pistons, rings, bearings and had the crank ground and polished. I grabbed a .492 lift cam and timing set off summit. I ended up spending right at 725 at the machine shop for an assembled short block that even included a new oil pump, pickup and the remainder of an engine gasket master kit.

I tossed it all together within a few days, ordered a flowtech y-pipe and headers, and dropped the engine back in and I had a whopping $1531.77 in a fresh strong, 355 L98. The motor only had 96k on it to begin with, but at the time I was initially going to use this as a 90mile round trip daily driver. So it had to be decent on fuel as well as have some nice pickup and torque.

Whatever you do, make sure you do your research, have a well thought out game plan on what you plan to do, and try to stick to it. 1500 won't get you a high HP motor, but it can build a nice reliable Saturday night tire burner that will also be decent on gas.

eblove911

Yeah I was shooting for high hp at first then I realized I'm not racing my car with these Cracker Jack cars. It can be aggressive just as it sits. If I get this setup for $300 get a great intake and now a carb and get a custom chip from the guy who pmed me for $50 shipped get some new headers I will be happy. His setup was being built for nos the intake and all but that was stolen I'm not going nos I like all motor. I guess with the other 10054727 block I will rebuild into a flat tappet old school 383 and throw the original 305's new crank in it since I can't take it back and have those two to swap. I do have another 86 with the 2.8 in it needs the front passenger impact bumper bracket to be fabricated onto since the wife hit a pole in it. Frame is good I just can't weld got a stick welder just to scared to try it out. Down the road maybe throw either in it if the 2.8 goes out.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If you want reliable you want a roller cam. Go add up how much it costs to retrofit one and then consider hte cost of a rebuildable roller cam core 350. I guarantee you it is cheaper to find a roller block. More reliable AND more power.... it's a win win as long as you dont invest a bunch of machinework into your current block.

But first check a few things on your block. See if the tops of the lifter bores are machined for the dog bones...

Apparently this is vetteoz's photobucket account. found this on google images, but it shows what Im talking about. Look at the 3 pedestals in the center of the lifter valley. This block has the holes drilled. See if yours do. If not that's an easy fix. The tricker part is look at the tops of the lifter bores. Do you see where they have been machined, and partially into the walls of the lifter valley above each set of lifter bores? That's so the dog bones can seat on them properly.


This is what I fear you have, but many of the later truck blocks have this machining done. This is my block:



The tops of the lifter bores do not form a sharp right angle against the walls of the lifter valley because they werent machined for dog bones. THIS is the issue, and it MAY be solvable, but I dont feel like investing in the parts to find out.

The last difference is this, the timing chain area. Roller blocks have a special cam retainer. See if the holes are drilled there on yours.



The two side holes are not drilled on mine. Again, if they are not drilled on yours, you can ahve a machine shop drill them assuming the face the retainer mounts to is machined flat. I honestly dont remember if mine was. After that you must acquire a factory-style spider/dogbone setup and some factory style roller lifters. Still comes out cheaper than aftermarket roller lifters, at $300-$700 a set.

Even aftermarket roller setups will come out cheaper in the end after you have to deal with the stress and hassle of buying special oils and additives and constantly worrying about zinc and break ins and tappet wear and spring rates.

Drac0nic

Good point on the truck blocks, they are a craps shoot though; My 92 didn't even have the bosses. If you have bosses and they're already set up, get a spider/roller lifters (I've seen em used here for $40 in the classifieds, or find any of the myriad of roller 305/350s to steal em from.) Be sure they roll smooth and don't have scoring on the rollers you're probably good at that point. Besides this, Elgin makes a couple cams for around 200 that are rollers for a stock block. They have a 230 single pattern and a 210/215 that I believe is lower lift so it would work decent with a set of stockish heads. Should sound good, make decent power and provide good drivability.

eblove911

UPDATE I GOT A 5.7 350 ENGINE FOR $300 vortec block and heads the accessories fan flex starter and all included said it had white smoke but doesnt need rings actually it was the bad head gaskets and intake manifold will post all pictures also has chrome valve covers and timing cover the cam is a 270? lifters loo good, the heads are 062's vortec no center hole. i am going to get the rering kit anyways so i know its all good. SO $300 OF MY $1500 BUDGET IS GONE. Motor all together minus intake and carb. I saw 750 holley but which intake and which 750 to go with? the double pump? the air gap? rpm proformer? and the cam I guess I can change to something else That I now for sure.its not letting me add pictures though?

DiabolicalRS

lucky man, i was following this thread and was gonna use it as a guide, but the guy i was gonna buy the block from sold it to someone else.. well have fun man

eblove911

Well I am going to see it through. A lot of people never do so people never figure it out so that's why I am going to keep everyone posted. That way u can still come back and follow along. The cam I found out is the xe270 by comp cams they recommend it to be the largest cam to go with WITHOUT having to change the stock torque converter is why.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I don't want to be "that guy" but I tried to fix the above quote so others could read it without getting a splitting headache.
From now on, could you please use a few periods, commas or something to make it easier to read for us all ?
Thank you

What do you mean by the 062's have no center hole??

eblove911

Ok, so here's the list so far
$300 for 1024880 vortec block with 255062 heads all accessories also everything minus intake
Comp cam xe270hr cam already installed
Largest cam to go with the stock converter is why it was used I guess?
New alternator, rebuilt ac compressor
New lifters installed with cam kit.
$200 eBay 5.7 350 re ring kit
Headers came with another flat tappet motor I purchased before roller block
1 3/4" long tube headers
Now comes the intake,I have seen the performer rpm for $250
Will need intake gaskets also.
Hei distrib $50 eBay new
And now I'm stuck at the carb Holley 750 is what I'm told to get.
However it comes in double pump which delivers more fuel as needed, and I'm not sure
If I need electric choke or manual to hook up to it?
The prom a member of thirdgen.org is offering custom $50 shipped.
What else do I need people I'm purchasing on Friday.
Cheapest I seem carb ready and new is $300
So I'm $1100 in on the build if I did math right minus gaskets and not sure what else yet this is my first build from block up

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The only headers that will fit these cars are headers SPECIFIC to these cars. long tubes are great but only in very select situations do they actually make sense. They most likely do not fit anyway, so be ready to get a set of shorties.

A 750 double pumper is maybe a little large. You might want to go to a 650 double pumper if that's the route you want to go. Qjets are fine, so is any other vac secondary carb, even those ugly edelbrock carbs. Be aware you will need to get a VORTEC SPECIFIC intake for VORTEC heads, Performer RPM is probably perfect but you may need to urn a smallish air filter to fit it under the hood, it's doable though no problem. If you get any carb that isnt a qjet, get a squarebore carb and a squarebore intake.

Also, remember you will need a 3-port fuel pressure regulator (mallory 4309), gauge, and fittings and fuel line and a feed line to get fuel to the carb. You will also need a throttle cable bracket with a TV cable geometry corrector, look into TVMadeEZ. Then do some research on how to lock your torque converter. THere are kits for this.

eblove911

Ok so a 650 double pumper should work? Then do I get the manual choke? Qjet though is the type I need? And then the Mallory 4309, and tv correction kit. And I have to lock my torque converter? No one told me this shorty headers are fine too

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Is your car a fuel injected car or a factory carb car? That makes all the difference.

The 700r4 needs to have the torque converter locked for cruising for various reasons. It's designed to be operated that way and if it's not it can cause overheating.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...c-control.html

And you need to read this, it's about how to swap EFI to carb.

https://www.thirdgen.org/carbswap

There are 3 popular carbs for our cars. Holleys (various sorts, but Double pumpers are probably the most common of those), Edelbrock, and the factory Quadrajet carbs. Electric or manual doesn't matter. Do you want to run an ignition power source to your carb to run the choke automatically? Or do you want to run a cable inside the car and control it manually?

The factory quadrajet carbs are the best for a lot of reasons, but they're not as performance oriented as the double pumpers are. You need to pick one. A quadrajet has a different venturi arrangement that requires a different intake flange. Edelbrock and Holley use what's called 'squarebore' and Quadrajets use whats called 'spreadbore'. Some of the more low end and mid level intakes are "dual pattern" for both, but many of the performance intakes are squarebore, or at least available in separate patterns.

This is a dual pattern flange:



This is squarebore:


This is spreadbore (factory quadrajet):

eblove911

My car is originally factory tbi 305 but all this tuning in my area isn't possible I'm two hours from even a Walmart. So that's why I was going carb. I did more research and yes 650 should be more than enough. Everyone has said double pumper though bc the performance advantages. So, if I add the $90 lockup kit b. I'm not using a higher stall converter that should work? To control the lock up feature for the 700r4? Thanks for the info really!! I can't find any videos anywhere online how to perform the install so I make record everything myself.
Update to list then
$300 5.7 litre motor with 062 heads and accessories minus intake
Xe270hr comp cams camshaft and lifters
That kit on eBay I saw for $500 though
The motor can b found for $500 at a junkyard also.
Re ring kit eBay $190
Intake will be from eBay also edel performer rpm $200
Holley 650 double pumper $275
Transmission lockup kit $90
Hei distrib eBay $50
Mallory 4309 fuel pressure regulator $110 eBay
And that's it so far....
So about $960 in parts to order and $300 on motor already purchased
I am $1260 into the budget if I get it as it sits

TP383LT1

I realize this thread is for the motor - but I'd encourage you to consider buying a wideband 02 sensor like what AEM offers. $150 on ebay.

A lot of people assume a new (or pre-owned 'tuned' carb) is good to go as long as the car doesn't run real rough / etc. This isn't true. A brand new carb out of the box is going to be close enough to drive the car, but you're going to want to tune with an 02 sensor to ensure you aren't too rich or lean - both of which can kill a motor over time.

Good luck and take your time. PM me if you have questions.

Brando5641

iTrader: (-1)

It takes close to 1500 just to properly rebuild a SBC let alone get 400hp out of it.

Have you bought an engine yet? If so chances are it needs bored to correct the massive ring grove it will probably have, then you have to replace pistons, and get it balanced. What about the crank shaft?
What about the oil pump?

I have tried what you are doing a few times and the engines don't last long.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

he ended up with a Vortec long block. The newer EFI engines were really good about bore wear, so given his budget it's not the worst idea in the world to just run it like it is. It's worth the gamble to try it on the budget he's got. I trust the newer stuff a lot more for that.

eblove911

eblove911

more pics

eblove911

the mock up begins

eblove911

i test fitted the intake carb and distrib and it looks awesome the more that goes on makes me wanna finish faster. Also the guy was only using a felpro vortec gasket to the heads and not the front and back for that he was using black rv sealant. If u do a little searching online u can find the 4 gasket set. edelbrock recommends heir gasksets for the intake.

eblove911

more pics of the mock up cant wait for the fuel line kit and wire looms im gonna add to make it stand out. not sure which air cleaner to go with yet either? Also gonna leave the computer in the car and hook up the 350 knock sensor and temp and get a chrome thermostat housing. the chevy tahoe 2000 model comes with the four intake gaskets also. the pics are messing up so i guess i will post more a little later

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Just dont get the Edelbrock triangle of death unless you want your car to burn down.

DiabolicalRS

update??

eblove911

Sorry its been so long I took tons of pictures but had my father in law pass of pancreatic cancer then my grand mother passed suddenly on top of all that the job laid off then got a new job working 14 hours a day, but all that aside I have gotten two hours a weeks to work on "Fuego" my cars name. Spanish for fire!!!

so update... I got the engine oil pan taken apart and removed the heads to check all that the guy said was correct cant trust everyone especially if its going to be a tribute car now. So, I lucked out BIG TIME!!! machined heads...lie...xr270hr cam....lie....instead I have xr258hr cam, hydraulic rollers, flat top pistons and new gaskets now the guy thought he scammed me but instead I got the better deal!!!
I bought at orielly's the only auto store near me for 1 hour some of the red anodized paint for the brackets and valve covers. They cleaned up great when painted. I have to find a way to get the air cleaner and exhaust done though like I said nothing for an hour away and its the only mode of transportation I will have when done.