LoL

I'm not going to get into the fray of what to do with your build just giving one persons view of roller cams vs flat tappet. I prefer roller cams just for the fact that you can have more lift without giving up idle quality because the slope can be more aggressive than with a flat tappet cam. Which can also translate to more duration at lift as well.

On my 86 305 I installed a cheap ($99) Crane cam and lifter kit which was flat tappet. I have ran that cam for over 8 years and have put approximately 10K miles on it. The cam is still going strong but I have gotten into some knocking on the bottom end which means a swap to a 350 SBC, which I have had sitting around for about 5 years.

To get my 350 roller block here's what I did. I found a guy parting out an 87 IROC. I bought the whole car with motor and trans. I sold the interior, doors, T/A 16" wheels, transmission and 1 fender. Hood, bumper, rear end and headlight support were already gone. Scrapped the body, kept the motor and came out $100 ahead. Scrap was really high at the time so I got $325 for just the shell and I sold the other parts really cheap locally.

With that said, not every parts car goes that well. I just got lucky and got a cheap running car that had a bad sub-frame and a good local network of f-body club members that needed parts.

 

A "That-A-Boy!!! is in order here.That is the way to do it.Nice!!.

 

Weakness of the goodwrench shortblock isn't necessarily your problem. The low compression and a block without provisions for a roller setup are your problem. You can fix these problems by changing pistons, milling heads, thinner head gaskets, etc. and either going flat tappet or retrofit roller on the cam. OR you can fix these problems by buying a roller ready truck block and not have to worry about those other problems. I bought a 350 from a 90's truck for $75 intake to oil pan. Had to drill and tap holes for the roller setup but that only takes a couple minutes to do. I ended up only using the block, I cant say much for it shortblock wise but with the roller provisions and I belive compression closer to 9.0:1 will give you more power with less headaches.

Changing heads/cam WILL increase the power of this engine no doubt, but it might not be the best way to go about this. If youre going to stay with the good wrench, I'd probably go with a flat tappet cam, it wont be worth the money for the retrofit setup, you'd be better off using the extra money for pistons instead of a roller setup for a non-roller block. I'm not saying to junk the goodwrench, but a cam and heads won't do much when your compression is so low.

 

I am listening to everything everyone is saying and I am thankful for all of your advice.

My question now is, If I leave the Short Block alone, I bolt on some heads and a cam, Roller or not, Use my 650 Ultra DP and my current MSD Dist and Exhaust, how should this car run?
WIll have have quiet a bit more power then it is now?
Will I feel teh power difference?
Will the car be streetable?

Thanks

 

It will have more power and also be streetable, but you won't be running at full potential with the lower compression of the short block and even the less aggressive profile of a flat tappet over roller cam. If you're going for all out power, you are starting in the wrong spot. If you're looking for a budget build that you can have fun with, then carry on with your plans.

 

I would say yes to three of your questions. (Provided your selection of cam and heads isn't lame).
As for how the car will run (the engine should be fine), that depends on the supporting parts.

 

One of the trick flow kits above is what i am leaning toward.
I am open to other suggestions as well. Feel free to post them.

 

Did you completely just ignore everything that's been said in this thread or what? I (and everyone else) made it as simple to understand for you as possible and you're still taking the cookie cutter approach. Don't expect to make any serious gains with your mismatched setup if you're going to take the easy way out.. because that's not going to cut it.

 

I have listened, And I have asked for suggestions on what heads, And Cam I should go with and no one has really gave me any of there thoughts on it. There was one Suggestion that was made to me and I am looking into those heads, Here is link http://www.profilerperformance.com/r.../sbc-23-degree, I would like a couple different options, What Lifters, Push Rods, Rocker Arms cam all of that stuff, I am asking for help and suggestions on choosing the correct ones.

 

Here's what you need to do:

Select the heads you want, DON'T BUY yet because the cam you get will determine what springs you will need.

Calculate your compression ratio with the head gasket you will use for the build.

Fill out a tech card for the cam from the company you want to use. They will know best what cam will be the best fit for what YOU want to do for your engine. Give them every detail you can, runner volume, combustion chamber size compression ratio, rear end gear ratio, M5 trans, ect.

From there you will get what cam is right for you and now you will now know what springs you will need on the heads.

I would get the push rod guides on the heads, this eliminates the need for self aligning rocker arms but requires you to get hardened push rods.

Thank You

 

FWIW 10,000 RPM NASCAR Cup series engines still use solid flat tappet lifters.

A solid flat tappet also does not have needle bearing / roller axle issues like a solid roller.

After a few seasons my solid rollers will have to be removed inspected and rebuilt.. then after few seasons more they need to be replaced.

Some call this cheap insurance / maintenance on a drag race only car,
on a street car this would be a major pain in the *** !

This is why the OEM uses hydraulic roller lifters... they have a very long service life. (the life of the engine with proper care) and can tolerate lighter weight oils with less ZDDP (for the OEM less friction = fuel economy, more HP is secondary)

for a hobby or race car flat tappets are perfectly fine. just use a good oil with ZDDP additive.

 

The only reason NASCAR engines use flat-tappet cams, is because the rules require it. And that, only in the Cup series; the trucks and NW have been allowed to use rollers for the last several years.

I can about 110% GUARANTEE you, if the rules changed tomorrow to allow roller tappets, by Friday there wouldn't be even ONE SINGLE flat one left in ANY of those motors.

In this day and time, the expense, risk, chance of failure, possibility of wipeout, cost of repair, not to mention the never-ending squeeze on "hazardous" metallic elements in oil which is doing NOTHING BUT getting worse, makes using flat-tappet cams a relic of the past and a FALSE "economy".

A lot like going out and putting $1500 worth of aftermarket heads on a crappy smogger turd short block and still only getting 8.7:1 compression, when for HALF THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY, you can go to the junkyard and pick up a VASTLY SUPERIOR motor that ALREADY HAS A ROLLER SETUP IN IT and you can drop in and run as-is and will RUN CIRCLES around the other, with basically NO RISK AT ALL of anything going wrong.

Remember, this hobby is all about $$$$ and RESULTS. That's it; $$$$, and results. If you have to spend more $$$$ to get the same results, or if you spend the same $$$$$ and get less results, you're making a mistake. Which is EXACTLY what putting $1500 worth of heads, $750 worth of $$$"retrofit"$$$$ roller gear, and whatever else, into a smogger short block. It defies the rules of $$$$$ and results.

 

While I agree a vortec motor is much better to start with. Where I live there isn't any low mileage ones left in junk yards. That well dried up years ago. And if you do find one they want crazy money for it.

 

Your not a NASCAR operation who builds from rough castings with odd ball combos off a mutli million dollar R & D programs.Lets keep it apples to apples comparisons.Nor does a street car see the kind of RPM's that a drag cars does.

And abit of advise for you.Roller valve train does matter who's roller system you are using.A Jesel or Morel roller lifter is tons more durable than the cheaper roller lifters/rockers.True enough they need to be checked,but more often than not don't need service.Lastly the spring pressures on a race car does have a impact on wear.

 

Sure... $500? $750? $1000 even?

And that compares to a fully set-up pair of aftermarket heads and a roller valve train conversion.... how?

And there's still the matter of what you get: a 9¼ - 9½:1 short block with better rods and pistons, that you can stick a MILD, GAS MILEAGE FRIENDLY (think, long-term continuous operating cost, or, what happens after you shut the hood) cam into and some valve springs, and get an EEEEEEEZY 350 - 375 HP out of. Compared to, ....?

$$$$$ and results.

 

Go to www.car-part.com and search for a 1999 Chevy truck 350 in your area. Shouldn't be too hard to come up with one that makes a good starting point for a hot street build.

 

By getting a used motor I now have a Unknown if I don't rebuild I am just not sure I want to get into that again. If I was to go the short block route I Would buy a new one. My bottom end I know is good, May not be the Best perf wise but it is healthy.

 

You are missing the point. You don't need a roller cam nor have to bother to modify a non-roller cam block.

Just get a good old flat tappet cam, if that's all you can afford or need, it will still suit
the purpose.

Using sofa's logic you will be ahead $$ wise and still have good results.

Plenty of write ups over the years on smog era 350s & just waking then up with a cam swap. 20-40 HP no problem.

$ per $ this is the best & easiest thing you can do, make some carb (tuning) adjustments and enjoy it.

the most important part is just to make sure you break in the flat tappets.

THE THIRD IMPORTART PART OF THIS HOBBY : ATTENTION TO DETAIL !

you can spend all the $$ you want to get results BUT blow the details = poor results.. Sooner or later.

 

I have a crazy when it comes to detail and taking care of my car I go over board. My Thinking is to put a nice top end on the car now, Then in a year or two I can get a nice SHort Block. I would like to notice a power boost right away though.I know I have to pull motor apart again but that is fine I have a nice shop and long winters.

I do want to make sure i am getting good Parts now though.

I may end up Being happy with the current short block and not change a thing, Or I may not and change it sooner then I planned.

Id Rather Buy a new short Block then rebuild one.

 

I use car-part all the time. There are none with low miles for $1000! They do not exist anymore. The ones with over 100,000 miles are over $1000. And i'm guessing you figured that out too since you took the $500...750 1000 part from your post
Maybe on craigslist but you don't know what your getting and no warranty.

 

Would you mind a recap?
What have you got to start with right now?
How much do you want to spend for a turnkey engine?
When do you want it?

 

Re Cap on what, At this point I want to stay under $2,500. If I could get a complete motor For a bit more maybe I would do it. What does a Good short Block cost? I have no good junk yards around here. My Option pretty much is to buy new or not at all. Plus I am not a fan of Used stuff I would rather buy new.

I am not a cheap person, I have had the car Painted three times in the 20 plus years I have owned it the last time by a custom Street rod that does work that has won many awards I try and by the best stuff and do it right.

I have a family now and can't afford to just go putting every cent I have in the car. I have only put 2,000 Miles on the motor since 2001. I have to use my head a bit I can't go dropping $6,000 or more on a crate motor ( I did that once in this car already, I pulled that motor and ended up putting it in another project car ). I want a good running car that has some power to back up it's looks.

I have no issue in a year or two buying a proper short block to go along with the top end I install now.

 

Did you say you had a Goodwrench 350 to start with?

Edit: Looking back it looks like yes. With that and your $2500 budget you should have little trouble reaching your horsepower target. (This is taking into account that you already have some of the top end parts) As for it's longevity, just hope that if a rod bolt does fail (it may run forever) it doesn't take your new cylinder heads or cam with it.

 

Some people have no issue with me using the Goodwrench motor others do. On The dyno this motor in the Mags have held together quite well. So confusing, I know everyone wants a Forged Bottom end with all the right specs, but this is the real world and I just want a cruiser with *****.

 

For what it's worth, people have been building "junkyard" small block Chevy's for about as long as they've been making them. My first engine (35 years ago) was a high mileage stock bottom end SBC that I did the typical heads and cam upgrade. I ran the crap out of that thing for many summers and it held together (like I said though, probably only at the 300 hp mark). Yes it would be nice to have a bullet proof shortblock but in reality it doesn't always happen. I would bet that if you took a poll, you'd find more small blocks are modified without the best of crankshafts or connecting rods than those that are. It's the budget approach until more funds arrive. Of course there's always the risk of failure but you take that risk if you want to move forward as opposed to waiting for more funds or a better deal.
If you've got the Goodwrench engine with most of the accessories (intake, carb, distributor, headers) then you're more than halfway there. You can live with the dished pistons, just choose a head that offers as much SCR as you can get. It'll still be off the mark when used with any kind of performance cam, but the next shortblock will have a better designed piston and your compression ratio will fall right in line provided you pick the right parts.
If what you want is a quick return on a reasonable investment, then this looks like the way to go.
There are plenty of arguements to the contrary (as you've read) but this will get you going. And despite what anyone says, hot rodding is seldom about doing it once and forgetting about it. There always an evolution it seems and that means spending more the next time. Unfortunately that always means duplicating certain things. Ask most hot rodders and they'll tell you how many head gaskets they're purchased over time. It's the nature of the hobby. It'd be nice to do it all once but I think that seldom happens.

 

Forgive me for not reading this whole thread, but the last few posts and skinnyz's comments make perfect sense to me.
Pick a set of heads with small chambers that you want to stay with for the long term and go from there. Do NOT pick the cam for the long term. Stay very conservative with the cam, considering the low CR. Forget any hp goal for now; just make it run well. You'll easily get 300 crank hp with a decent set of heads and a conservative cam, and with the rest of the drivetrain in order, that is plenty to deliver some punch in a 3rd Gen. And because you'll be running a conservative cam and spring pressures, just stay flat tappet with this block.
Don't worry about the bottom end letting go and taking out one of your new heads, because there is NO REASON to spin to even 6000 rpm if you choose wisely on the cam. The odds of a GM-built shortblock failing with that kind of duty are pretty low.
I don't know if it's been suggested already, but given the fact that you're dealing with new/good deck surfaces on the block and heads, run .015" head gaskets to help yourself out.

 

I can't believe no one has suggested forced induction. With a $2500 budget you should be able to come up with a turbo or blower setup, run moderate boost, and be ahead of the game on power. You could run nice thick head gaskets to handle the compression.
you talked about building a new block in a few years, the good wrench block should last that long easily with the lower rpms required. Heads would be ok. Cam change would be nice but not totally necessary.
just throwing another possibility out there.

 

Because building and tuning a blowthrough carb that will drive well on the street is out of the scope for most people.

And I totally agree with you skinny

 

Trick Flow Cam specs.

http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail....+&autoview=sku

Comp Cam Specs

http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ory_Code=HFTXE

These cams seem pretty close am I correct?

These are the two I am looking at the most here.

If I was going roller here is one I was looking at
http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail....1&autoview=sku

According to trick flow there cams are ground by Comp Cam.

 

BLACK, I think you meant to post a different link for that first TF cam; that's a roller.

IMO, you're way off base with those cams for making a USEABLE powerband in this low compression motor. They're simply too big.
Think more along the lines of a Comp XE 212/218 on either a 108 or 110 LSA. With good flowing heads, keep the duration low for a USEABLE powerband!
Remember, you're gonna ditch the cam anyway when you get the shortblock you really want.

 

86 I just edited post Correct link is there for the first choice.

 

Do you not remember you were told by a few people that there are much better choices than trickflow heads for the money?
I'm going to try and be nice about this but it is obvious you only asked to have someone agree with you so you can get the trickflow kit. Unfortunately no one did and you still want to buy it. So just buy it. It is obvious you want to buy it regardless of what anyone else says.

 

Still too big. My impression is that you're still chasing a hp goal with this shortblock. Don't fall into that trap.

 

JA A few Post above I linked to the heads you suggested, I am not stuck on trick Flow.

I am also looking at these ANd I just got off the phone with COmp and this hat they Recommend.

Roller set up

http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ry_Code=RFHRXE

http://www.racingheadservice.com/rhs...head-8492html/

Flat Tappet set up.

http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ory_Code=HFTXE

http://www.racingheadservice.com/rhs...head-8491html/

I have asked over and over for suggestions on what heads and cam to get.

 

This is my last post on this thread because it sure appears to me that you're not looking for help.
1. No comment on the heads, except the fact that I'm unclear from that link whether the price is per head or per set, AND whether the price is bare or assembled (look at the part number in that picture with the price).
2. Comp's advice on the cam seems to ignore the engine you're dealing with here. The "tech" you spoke with is probably typical of them. They will appease people by giving them the cam they ask for (yes, my impression is that you're asking for too much and still throwing hp goals out there), and at the same time mislead people on what is required in converter stall to let the engine get to an rpm to make any power at all. They do this to sell you the cam you indirectly asked them for, while leading you to believe you won't have the added expense or driveability concerns with stepping up the converter to make use of the erroneously chosen cam.
In my experience, when Comp tells you a 2000 rpm converter is needed, a 3600 rpm converter is really what's needed.
Also, their "rpm ranges" are a joke. FWIW, I run a 228/234 roller cam in a 350 in one of my other vehicles, which peaks at 6400 and I shift it at 7100 rpm..........just an example of how they or anyone else cannot predict a cam's effective operating rpm range without knowing the rest of the setup.
Comp makes good cams, but their canned guidelines for general public consumption is sorely lacking.

 

Of course comp recommends rhs, they are the same company. They are over $100 more a head than profilers and don't flow as well. Even the if you don't want profilers. The dart shp heads are over $100 less also.

 

I told Comp what motor and the specs of the motor, I told them my Goal, I asked them to Recommend a Roller and a none roller set up.

My Car is a 5 Speed.

Nothing against the heads you Recommended, I would love hear other comments on them They are in the running for my choice.

My Buddy just picked up a set of Jegs heads they seem real nice.

Everything I seem to pick out is wrong, Everyone is telling me its wrong but not posting links to what they think I should use.

I did not lead comp I told them what I wanted as far as power and street ability and that is what they picked.

Price is assembled and per head.

People are getting pissed off but not helping me put a combo together.

 

OK, I lied....one more time...
For a cam, here: http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...x?csid=84&sb=2
With what we know at this time, it's probably as good a suggestion that can be made right now.
With decent heads, I'd run it with 1.6 rockers.

THAT'S where you're messing up!

Not me When I realize I'm talking to a wall, I don't get pissed off at the wall :wink:

 

I am asking for help in picking out a Cam and Heads, I am looking to you guys for advice.

Ok here we go, That cam and what heads? What Runner and chamber size should I shoot for?

Yes I am asking for Power but also Street ability and good manors.

 

Jegs heads are made by profiler

 

I called Profiler,The tech didn't seem to helpful He recommended a 70 CC Chamber for my car, I am not sure but I don't believe I would want a Chamber that big, I have 76 CC Now Don't I want something more along the 64 and less?

 

64cc's will not get the compression up to an optimal level to make decent power. You're going to need the heads milled down in order to achieve a decent CR.

 

But......you may want to compromise with 64cc chambers to leave your options open when those same heads go onto the shortblock that you say you'll eventually have. Even 9.0:1 compression will be tolerable if you stick with a conservative cam like I suggested.

 

.

 

As for a cam, I'd go with a roller from the start. The largest cost is in the lifters and if you can absorb that at the beginning, then all you would need to do later is swap in a cam. And with the roller you avoid all the problems associated with today's engine oils. As for heads, the general opinion is to keep the runner sizes small while keeping the flow up. 180cc seems to be more than enough for a 350. Even at the 450hp level.
I can comment on what I've used in the past and how it performed.
I've used the Comp XR276HR. I found 12-14" of vacuum at 750 rpm. Nice lope (sounds good). In a 350, it makes peak power in around the 5600 rpm mark. I used to shift at 6500 rpm on the 1-2 and 6000 for the 2-3 (crappy 700R4 gear ratios!). That cam performs best with a SCR of 9 or 10:1.
I used that cam with a set of Vortec heads. What's useful about the Vortec here is that their iron composition will help with the low compression ratio you'll see with the Goodwrench shortblock. I upgraded my unported Vortecs with Comp 918 Beehive springs and guide plates. Combined with the cam above, it took a 3750 lb slug to a 107 mph trap speed. I'm not pushing the Vortecs in any way, it's just an example. Problem with the Vortecs is that they DO need upgrading and that adds to the cost.
I like the RHS heads you selected. I'm currently using their ProTorker version of the Vortec head. All in all a very well cast part with good flow numbers.
Doing a little research, it looks as though the Goodwrench pistons have a dish in the 18 cc range. That means that with a 64 cc head, a typical piston deck height of .025" (below deck) you can achieve a SCR of about 9:1 with a .015" head gasket. That's not too shabby with iron. Might be a little low for aluminum. The circle track "claimer" engines here (that are running Vortecs) have a 9:1 compression ratio and they do alright. .
Compression ratio notwithstanding, and if I were to do it again, I'd find something in aluminum. Maybe do as suggested and give up some on the cam and peak hp and build some low speed torque with a shorter cam.

 

Even with a .015" gasket (I've never used one and I hear they're finicky) the CR barely approaches 9:1. That's assuming a piston only .025" down. I've seen more than that. It would take a cam like a XR264HR to get the DCR up to 7.5.
There would be nothing that would make the heads less usable if they did get milled. Just build the next short block to fit.
I guess the upside is that it could run on regular grade fuel.

 

If you are stuck on trickflow, they have heads with 62cc chambers, too bump up the compression a bit. I bought trickflow 195's for my 383, and looking back now I wish I would have bought a set of jegs/summit brand heads. Jegs/summit heads outflow trickflow super 23's pretty easily, BUT the trickflows I believe used better hardware on their heads (valves, springs, etc.) where jegs/summit used the cheaper hardware.

I cant find the flow numbers at the moment for the trickflows but I remember comparing then after I bought the Trickflows and then realized I went with the more expensive ones that flow less. Take a look at these or any of the other jegs heads.

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...12#moreDetails

 

Now we are getting some where, I would go with a smaller cam if that meant better low end torque. I would like to stay in the 62 to 64 cc Range for future short block, Runners 180 prob would be better but I may go 195 unless u guys think I def should not.

I have thought about the iron vortecs heads also.

I am a bit nervous about using a .015 Gasket, Stock I think is .039-.041

 

The 264 is pretty small and I can't say what the difference in torque might be when compared to the 276.
The smaller the chamber the better for this one. Anything you can do to help the CR is a bonus.
180's are likely to help your low end torque over what a 195 would. That's not true in all cases of course but 180 would suit this build better and not be a choke for your 400 hp target when you are in phase II.
I like the Victor Reinz/Clevite 5746 head gasket. Measures .026" x 4.1". Cheap too.

Edit:

I went to Comp and looked up their dyno graphs. The specs may not match your engines but you get an idea of the difference in torque and horsepower.

http://www.compcams.com/v002/Pages/394/XR264HR-10.aspx 421 ft*lbs @ 4000 RPM/335 HP @ 4900 RPM

http://www.compcams.com/v002/Pages/396/XR276HR-10.aspx 427 ft*lbs @ 3700 RPM/373 HP @ 5200 RPM

Interesting.

 

"Shim" gaskets do benefit with a deck finish to accommodate for sealing.