ok, heres a fantasy parts list that i'd consider;

zz4 heads with some gasket matching on the intake and exhaust.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...6463/overview/

self-aligning roller rockers since the zz4's dont have guideplates.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...5-16/overview/

comp retro hyd roller "k" kit.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...make/chevrolet

composite dizzy gear.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...make/chevrolet

should make a mean street motor.

 

I agree that would make a really nice street engine.
The only issue is the heads are not useful for any future upgrades, but it will definitely get you a nice street engine for a lower cost than using better flowing heads.

 

<cheech> HOLY SHEEEP STUFF!!!!! </cheech>



For THAT MUCH $$$$, you're less than $200 away from AFRs; but you still only have stock heads.

 

Holy crap... looked at it quick and didn't realize that was each!!! That is crazy expensive for a set of 165cc iron heads!

Forget what I said about being lower cost than better heads!

 

Yep-.035 is abit tight.But we have done that a number of times.

Here is the pistons I have been talking about:



Don't have time right now to answer the other posts.Will get back to it later.

 

This is a chart for on a 3.45 stroke for DCR:

• Static CR....Intake closing point @ 0.050"....Dynamic CR.
• 8.25........10* ABDC......8.010........................................................................................................
• 8.50........20............8.012........................................................................................................
• 8.75........27............8.022........................................................................................................
• 9.00........33............8.018........................................................................................................
• 9.25........37............8.061........................................................................................................
• 9.50........42............8.029........................................................................................................
• 9.75........46............8.016........................................................................................................
• 10.00.......49............8.038........................................................................................................
• 10.25.......52............8.043........................................................................................................
• 10.50.......55............8.029........................................................................................................
• 10.75.......57............8.069........................................................................................................
• 11.00.......60............8.022........................................................................................................
• 11.25.......62............8.038........................................................................................................
• 11.50.......64............8.042........................................................................................................
• 11.75.......66............8.035........................................................................................................
• 12.00.......68............8.017..................

Just like the quench of .035-the DCR of 8.5 is doable.

 

The GM performance Vortec's are a pretty good bang for your buck if he doesn't want to go to RHS steelies.The small version is a 180 CC intake runner.One key here is no worries of cracked heads like in some of the junkyard dogs.Still have to machine the heads for the larger lift cams.I think they are about $600 for the pair.And I am talking about the steel versions.

 

I would like to stay with Aluminum heads.
Would the .015 Head gasket be ok to use? My Block is factory never been open.
My MSD Billet HEI is the Gear ok with either a Flat or Roller Cam?

 

Doesn't look like from what I went through.
No one was able to offer anything substantial (including you Gary) regarding my 10.39:1/8.39:1 355.
I've yet to see one REAL WORLD example of someone pulling that off with iron heads. I had TONS of tuning advice and ran the gamut from timing to the fuel curve and it's not workable on pump gas. Took tons of timing out of it, poured gas to it with bigger pump shots, bigger jets, etc. Temps were never an issue. Engine temps and intake charge were always in check.
Now aluminum heads are a different story.

 

I've always liked the OEM Vortecs.
I went with the 26918 Comp spring and that drops right in. This eliminates the machining process for lifts approaching .550" as well as providing an appropriate spring for just about any hydraulic roller you might throw at it. I went a little further and had the stud bosses cut and tapped for screw-in studs and guide plates. It adds to the cost but it puts them on an even footing with any aftermarket head.

 

You'll give up a little power going to the aluminum with your compression as low as it'll be. I don't think you can expect more than 9:1 even with the .015" gasket. Personally, I wouldn't let that stop me if you genuinely have another shortblcok in mind down the road.
Now regarding the gasket, I've heard that they can troublesome on uneven surfaces. How much uneven is I can't say. If your Goodwrench block is a low mileage unit and hasn't been overheated or otherwise abused, you would probably be OK. This is something that can't be determined 100% however plenty of people have reported good results and they started with less.
Keep away from a billet cam core and your distributor gear will be fine. Any cam that we've discussed here is suitable. They're cast cores.

 

Rather than .015 maybe try a .028 youll never notice the difference. Things gotta be perfect on a .015 meaning flat
Car will run the same

 

For anyone who is reading this to learn, do not try and build a pump gas street engine with iron heads and a dcr of 8.5. This is terrible advice to give and you will wind up with a bunch of issues like skinny has described in a previous post.

So now all of a sudden there are heads that will work with his engine??? Are you kidding me? You have been arguing that it is a waste and will be a turd for a multitude of reasons starting with the quench and compression. Are these magical heads?
And they are not only $600. You need a spring upgrade. Using the cheap ones from alex parts is $100. Then you need a new intake manifold and that's $200.
Now we are at $900. It's not so cheap anymore. You can buy a set of dart shp or profilers for a little over $1000

 

We've got a relatively fresh shortblock (an original ZZZ that's now .020 over) and are running .036 or so however without good machining and a tight piston fit, I'd be afraid to try it. Then again, I'm not an engine builder, just an assembler and have to rely on my machinist to give me what I ask for and work with what I get.

 

That's probably the best advice.
I've used many of the Clevite/Victor Reinz/Cometic 5746 (.026" x 4.100") gaskets on new and used shorts with no trouble.
Compression ratio goes from 8.9:1 to 8.7:1.
You're right. Car will run the same.

 

Skinny-we have been a engine builder for like 40yrs.I agree a thicker gasket is a positive move.We have found a deck finish does matter with the shim head gaskets.

Don't know why you had the issues you had at .035.Maybe given the range of pump gas has in your area the octane isn't very good.

The lower dollar aluminum heads certainly isn't a good answer.Even Skip White who I am not a fan of,stop using Pro-filer.Way too many QC problems.You do get what you pay for.Brodix does have some nice street version heads.

But like we agreed,before he orders any parts,he needs to get the heads off and measure piston to deck.

 

What quality control problems are you talking about? The HEADS or the HARDWARE? Profilers are great heads provided they have good hardware installed on them.

 

Just trying to help BlackZ with his build and I'd hate for a guy to assemble an engine only to have a head gasket fail on him. I thought there would be a bigger impact on compression going to a .026" gasket but the difference here is very small. 8.9 compared to 8.7 (based on a few things that need to be verified).
Thanks for the input.

I didn't have any issues actually. I was scared away by the possibility of doing some damage as I understand that's approaching the edge of the quench spec. I elected to back away from the edge and tried to zero in on .040" as a safe limit. As it is, due to an increased piston height relative to the deck (because of a replacement shortblock), I'm forced to increase the quench a little more (along with a couple of cc's out of the chambers) in order to bring the SCR down to a manageable level.
However we did run .036" or so in another engine (ZZZ, hypereutectic pistons, AFR) and so far have experienced nothing unusual.


I'm 100% behind that suggestion.

 

Could you please elaborate on this? What issues are you seeing? When was this issue?

 

All the gambit of casting issues from guides off to rocker stud's off...........

 

I've never saw any guides off as I have CNC's about 100 sets. Off as in tight? Or off as in not centered?

As far as the studs, did you know they have their own stud girdle?

The casting and material is as good as anything.

 

LOL-White is now using a Austrian forging machined in China.Wow!!. None for me.

The O/P closed the door on any other possibility to replace this engine and sell off what he has.Actually with the wrong build in SCR and poor quench we have seen car go slower thus becoming a turd.We will see what he has once he measures the piston to deck to go on from there.

I'm thinking,aside from the piston to deck measurement,the Brodix street version is a good purchase.

He may find it very hard to save this build once he has that measurement.

Now here again,(I don't subscribe to nitrous on cast pistons),he could use a light spray to get him to his goals on this one and have it when he wants.

 

My goal is,
Step one
Turn Key car starts and stays running,
2. Drive car stomp gas and smile.

But seriously I just want a good strong runner, Doesn't need to whoop up on new vettes.

You like Brodix heads over RHS which is what I am leaning toward at this moment.
You guys think I should lean toward .026 Head gaskets instead?
Brand ?
Also Shouldn't the Piston height be the same across the board with this motor, i am sure it has been taken apart alot over the years.

 

I think the choice of head is kind of a pick one scenario. As long as you select a quality casting, and either of those you mentioned are excellent heads, you'll be fine with a 64cc chamber/180cc runner for this and any future build you have in mind. Keep in mind that with the shortblock you have, you're compromising the real potential however it's a safe bet you'll still get the "stomp it and smile" factor out of it.
Victor Reinz/Clevite 5746.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...5746/overview/
For the reasons sofa mentioned, you'll find that the factory production tolerances tend to be all over the map. Variances between cylinders can amount to several percent and so will the resulting piston to head clearence and compression ratio. At this level that's nothing to fear so long as you don't try to split hairs, as in going for the minimum quench.
Keep in mind, you can build your wish list but it's good advice not to pull the trigger on anything until you've taken the heads off and made a few measurements. Maybe even a compression test to help determine the overall condition of the engine is in order.

 

I think Brodix and RHS both have very good heads and R & D programs.Actually my first choice is RHS,but in your case and future builds,I do think Brodix has just alittle edge in their street version.

 

I just marked all my roller conversion parts down to like $30 shipped

 

What other Gaskets should I get as far as Style and Quality? What Header Gaskets should I use, I think I used Earl's or Russels last time and have had good, Luck but I forgot which,
What type of material?

Thank you to everyone for there time and help.

 

I've used just about every header gasket imaginable. Steel core laminate, copper, carbon composite...all with varying success. What I've found most importantly is that the gasket has to match the head and the header as closely as possible to ensure a good seal. It's also vital that the gaskets are re-torqued as the engine heat cycles.
Lately I've been using Percy's carbon composite gaskets for my RHS/Vortec heads.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...make/chevrolet

Excellent results provided I stay on top of the re-torquing mentioned earlier.

 

Skinny-one thing I have learned is you are one of the good guys on this forum.Certainly not trying to be argumentative,but I do think there is still something we haven't discovered on your deal.I would be very hopefully once you have your heads off,we will find in measurements something there or in measurements of your heads and those not being as advertized.But don't give up on .035 yet.

That said and sorry for the above off topic post,the O/P should look at a spray of 75 to 150.Not a big fan of nitrous because it is hard on engines.In fact one of the hardest of power adders.But at this level shouldn't be that bad.Cams are make exclusively for nitrous and he should take a look at them.It would help him on the low SCR and bad quench.I think he would find it satisfying his goals pretty easily.

 

Thanks for that Gary. It's always been my thing to be the even keel guy. (Unless you were married to me at one time I suppose).
Anyway, taking advantage of the OPs thread for a minute (thanks BlackZ) I'm not 100% sure what went down with my old engine spec other than the unintentional result of nearly 10.5:1 with iron heads wasn't workable despite what I threw at it including 100 octane race fuel. A subsequent engine tear down showed nothing out of the ordinary regarding the condition of the heads or the piston crowns. In a poor judgement move, I let the car idle for about 45 minutes prior to bringing in the gargage and taking it apart and allowed to the chambers and plugs to colour up a little and disquise what might have been something of importance.
I've taken steps to remove a couple of cc's out the chambers via some clever valve unshrouding (from a measured 64 to 66 cc) and will work from there. Once I get back home (on holidays at the moment) I'll be firing up a new thread on the subject. Lots of pictures and information.
Interestingly, in the other thread I've started, very little hardcore real world data has been provided with which to build a data base. Lots of info, lots of suggestions (as usual) but nothing factual, as in cranking pressures compared to engine spec.
Thanks again for the loan BlackZ.

 

What is the Retorque Procedure that you use?

 

It's nothing special. After every engine cool down, I'll run through all of the header bolts and snug them up. After a few cycles I find that they won't take any additional tightening and that's about it. I did find over-torquing isn't a good thing either. It becomes a question of "feel" as it's not possible to get a torque wrench in there. At least not in my case.

 

Spoke to Comp again today, They are still trying to push this cam
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=159&sb=2

Guy said this will work perfect for me.

Also said that no matter what lifter I use I will have noise do to the cam profile, What do you guys think about this, Will I have noise no matter what? Will some lifters just make it less? Is it the lifter or the cam that makes it noisey?

 

Because calling them twice and asking the same question is going to net different answers?? What were you expecting?

 

I ran that cam with 10:1 SCR and Vortec heads. DCR was 8.1:1. Also had a large quench at more than .050" (.025"-.035" piston deck and an .026" gasket). It would have run with less compression but it needs more to be effective.
I can understand Comps point of view as I'm sure they would rather have you build an engine that under-performed but was safe to run rather than build something that was on the edge and possibly difficult to tune. Depending on your ultimate goal regarding the next build, it may be suitable in that you can make a strong performer using it. Give up a little now but build around that cam for round two. It would be less than ideal with the lower compression in the Goodwrench short. I don't think you'll be able to hit 9:1 even with a shim gasket/64 cc heads and the general consensus here has been to avoid the shim with a block deck less than 100% true (as yours in likely to be). A smaller cam will definitely build more torque and that's what you want in a street engine.
As for the noise, I can't say mine was any noisier than any other cam I've had experience with but it certainly had a little "clatter" to it. I doubt lifters will make a difference one way or the other but remember that there were issues reported with the old Comp 853 retro-rollers. Whether that's true today I can't say. I've moved on to the Comp 15853 lifters.

 

Delta, I had questions about the head, straight vs angle, I figured since it was a different guy I would run it by him that is all, and I told them everything we talked about here.

Skinny the .026 is not a shim correct?
What was the issue with the old Retro Rollers? Ill do a search but just wondering.
Now the 264 cam I think has power range of 1,200 to 5,100 does it just fall on it's face after 5,100?

 

The .026 gasket is not a shim.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...5746/overview/

My experience with the Comp 853 retro roller was that they failed. Plain as that. There was no lifter pre-load as the plunger could be compressed by hand which isn't supposed to happen. By hand I mean that I could take a push rod and compress the lifter easily just by pushing on it. Quality control problem? I can't say for sure.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...3-16/overview/
They still make them and still sell them so I'm not sure what's up.
Perhaps someone here could suggest a less expensive alternative though. The 853s are pricey and it seems to me that the Morels were cheaper.

As for the cam power/torque curve. Provided you have the supporting parts, carb, heads, intake, headers, decent exhaust, then it won't "fall on it's face". As an example, the XR276HR that Comp recommended and I ran for years has range of 1900-5600. It pulled WELL past 5600. So much so that I ran a 6500 rpm rev limiter. I would imagine that the 264 behaves much the same way.

 

Wow that is pricey, The Cam kits they sell come with the Cam Retro Rollers and Timing chain for like $750 I think. I am leaning Toward the Morels but was just wondering about the comp ones.

Any issue running a Full roller in Aluminum? Comp also has a Chromemoly Full roller.

What about my Fuel Push rod? Right now I have a Edelbrock Fuel pump, but it uses the stock rod I think.

Once again thanks to all of you, some of this stuff may seem simple to you and also like common sense but I am trying to learn and though a forum is not always the easiest.

 

Morel makes some of the best lifters on the market.

 

That's my understanding and something I wish I had been more aware of when I switched to the Comp short travel 15853.
According to Morel's website, they're machined from tool steel (billet) much like the 15853 as opposed to a cast body which the Comp 853 and the GM OEM lifter are machined from. It's this casting which distorts at high rpm causing a bleed off of hydraulic pressure and allowing the lifter to collapse.
The component separation that occurs because of this is often blamed on a loss of valve spring control when it could be a collapse due to distortion. I've witnessed this first hand.

 

Comparing lifter to lifter it looks like the Morel are a good deal. I'll admit I haven't really checked thoroughly price-wise.

Personally, I wouldn't run an aluminum rocker in a street engine. (Yes I know many have). I put a lot of miles on my engines and aluminum fatigues over time. They become a wear item that requires replacement.
Regarding the fuel pump push rod, check out this thread.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...fuel-pump.html

Don't forget to pull the heads before you pull the trigger on anything.

 

Now when I pull the heads off what Exactly do I want to check?

 

Specifically, you'll want to check the piston height relative to the deck.
How you do this will depend on the range of tools you have to work with. I use a dial indicator with a magnetic base, a true straight edge and feeler gauges.
Once you've determined this value (and I suggest you do all eight cylinders), you'll be in a better position selecting the heads and gasket you'll need to optimize your compression ratio and cam.

 

Can you guys give me some ranges, as far as what Gasket I want for range,

Are the numbers that different from block to block?

Would I be pretty safe going with the 64cc /180 Runner and .026 Head gasket?

Thanks for all of your help you guys have been great.

 

This joke has gone on for way too long!
You can't be for real.
I can only assume at this point you're just getting your rocks off trying to drive everybody bonkers.
Nobody can be as dense or helpless as you're coming across.

 

You know I am trying to learn That is all I am asking ? to help me do that You know I don't have someone here holding my hand showing me how to do this stuff SO I turn to teh net and as you may know you get good and bad info on the net There have been some very helpful people on here that have taught me a lot so far and I am still trying to learn more. If I was able to have a 30 Min Conversation in person with one of the Knowledgeable people on here I would learn a lot and All my questions would be answered.

86LG4 I hope one day to have your Knowledge and not have to ask anyone for anything.

 

A quick recap.
It's in your best interest to check the piston height relative to the block. This bit of info will at the very least tell you if you're on the right track. Yes, the values can differ greatly from block to block and even within the SAME block. There are tutorials available on-line and in print that will tell you how to go about this. (That's easier than trying to describe it here).
That said, it's seems from the all of the previous discussion that you won't be far off the mark with the .026"gasket, a 64 cc combustion chamber and a cam that needs the kind of compression you would get with the above head and gasket. That's where the piston height will be helpful. You can then accurately calculate your CR.
From there it's a matter a picking your brand of cylinder head and cam.
It can be a tough choice (especially if you've never done it and even if you have) but the best decisions are informed decisions.

 

Nothing wrong with asking. We all started there. But doing nothing with the answers you're given and asking the same questions like 10 times over is my point.

 

BlackZ:

I am somewhat limited by my hands/fingers with the carpal tunnel I have.Still trying not to pound on the keys like I have for yrs which is my style of typing.

So my posts are brief.

In terms of you Bird.I gotta be honest.I read your posts and was somewhat offended. Might wanna tone down the ego some.Just give the advise and let it be."We all started there??" I mean really??.................

 

Where did you start?
It's not ego. I try to help and urge people to keep it simple and not over-think things. But sorry, I'm not into the hand-holding. I know I don't have the patience that you and some others do.
Maybe I should stay out of these discusions