You said "So your suggestion is to ruin a new set of heads to fit this set-up only" and I am showing you they would work just fine on other setups.
A 355 with an off the shelf 12cc diamond piston is 10.4 with 58cc. So there is your 350.

O and here is your 10:1 zz4 piston that isn't available. Yea it's a hyper, but at this hp level it doesn't matter.

This is almost 2014. You can get almost any piston size you need for a sbc off the shelf. And if for some strange reason you cant. They can make them custom in any size you want for only a few dollars more. You just have to wait for them.

I am beginning to think this is a joke since there is no way you shouldn't know this stuff!

 

Bore. 4"
Stroke. 3.48"
Piston deck. .025"
Head gasket. .015" x 4.100"
Piston dish. 18cc
SCR
64cc. 8.93:1
58cc. 9.49:1
Take the same short but with a 5cc piston:
64cc. 10.26:1
58cc. 11.04:1
You can take ANY of those SCRs and make a reasonable DCR with the right cam. Large or small.

 

I don't have an issue with mine, personally. Just throwing that out there.

 

Buy a set of Wisco's...............

 

Do it again.piston stroke isn't 3.5.

And the deck isn't .015.

 

Grasping at straws????? You should know damn well that you can have a deck height of whatever you want when you build an engine. Deck height and gasket thickness are the two things you can change to get the quench (and compression) you want. and b changing the stoke to 3.48 isn't going to do anything significant.
Oh and how about you do it again. Maybe you will learn something because it is quite obvious you don't actually know everything you think you do.

 

You can argue all you want about a piston selection for the next build however does anyone have anything that confirms the dish of the Goodwrench piston? I've come across a few...magazine builds.....that indicate it's 18cc.

 

But wait a second.I thought this thread was about this O/P's engine which isn't decked at all.Kind of makes me think I'm dealing with a guy who is just wanting to argue and not for nothing isn't accurate in his suggestions or helping the O/P at all.

Look-your preaching just the basics.Nothing that most of us doesn't knows already.My business has built hundreds of high performance engines over 40 yrs.SCR/DCR and quench numbers are common place.

For this thread my suggestion is yes a roller conversion is valid.That there are advantages to a roller cam beyond just solving the flat hydro issue of cam failures.That the roller cam does have better cam profiles.That he needs to select a cam given the low compression.That given his issue of poor quench his performance will suffer.That because of the possibility of aluminum heads and a shim gasket,the block deck needs a special deck surface number to insure a good seal.That I am a big fan of RHS heads mainly because of their known intensive R & D program which is first class.

This O/P's goals of mid 300's is obtainable at the flywheel.That aside from head/cam choices,a T/C stall and rearend/tire choice is also apart of the car's performance.That he needs not spend for aluminum heads where he could use RHS steel 72cc heads and adjust/cut those heads for a given SCR he wants and still not leave much on the table and save him money.That RHS's heads are available in a 180cc runner which out of the box is kind of ideal as a overall performance for his application.

What I posted is logical and is secondary to his situation for him to understand and search engines to benefit from.That he needs to understand a roller conversion is money spent taking away from a GM block the is already roller acceptable which is pretty cheap to get where there is tons of them out there.

Lastly-given a possibility of a future build of another engine he should look for a truck L31 engine from the years of 1996 to 2000.That those heads would be a good match for a number of combos from a 355 to even a 383 torque monster where torque is king on the street.So it is money well spent.And given the formula I posted on my thread he should look for D-cup reverse dome pistons.

Now because of serious effected carpal tunnel hands this all the typing I can do at this time.

 

Morel Lifters I am not seeing who sells, them can anyone link to a set of Lifters for Retro fit that I can get from Summit or Jegs?

I would like a quite motor not something that ticks, With the smaller cam would comp lifters still be noisey?

I guess maybe I ll start a thread and ask about Angle VS Straight.

 

Your reading comprehension skills need work Gary. It was you who suggested that milling the heads to 58cc would ruin the heads for future builds. Jabot was giving you examples of possible future builds using 58cc heads.

 

Black Z, stick with straight plugs since you know they work with the headers you have now.

 

Are you kidding? Do you forget what you say? You are the one who said that he wouldn't make power or have a good running engine if he puts heads and a cam on his shortblock because the quench was off. Then myself and a few other people said even with the high quench with 64cc heads he can still have a nice street engine with a mild cam and a respectable dcr.
The someone else and myself suggested 58 and or 56cc chambers. Then once again you chimed in and said "So your suggestion is to ruin a new set of heads to fit this set-up only and not worry about quench" and "a 58 or 54 cc head is not useable on any future builds outside of a race only engine.". Since this is just crazy I went and showed that there are an abundance of off the shelf pistons and head gasket choices to be able to use those heads for many future builds and still get an optimum quench and compression for a nice street engine.

 

Thank you Manic.

 

Not to stir the pot,but it also me that has showed his calculations are not accurate.Man these hands hands hurt like hell today.

Been there,done that with 58cc heads or less.Pistons for that do cost.

 

Are you crazy!!! How are my calculations not accurate????

 

http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/ProTr...eteCatalog.pdf

 

Apparently you are going crazy. WTF does a wiseco piston catalog have to do with anything!!!!
Are you trying to say the brand you prefer doesn't make a piston off the shelf that will give a good street compression with 58cc heads? Cause the reality is just because you like wiseco doesn't mean there is anything wrong with je, srp, diamond, etc. They are all reputable piston companys that make quality pistons that have been used in thousands of street and race applications for many years.

One again you called me out and said my calculations are wrong. At least when i called you out on something I actually proved what I was saying.

SO PROVE ME WRONG!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinny z

I gave a list of possible components. No reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1gary

Yes the angle plug heads/headers can be a PITA.Don't think for your use,it's worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaElite121

I don't have an issue with mine, personally. Just throwing that out there.

There have been a couple of replies. I think the bottom line here is that it's your choice.

 

Skinny I did do some research, it seems like it is 50/50 straight vs angled, I forget now if Comp/RHS Offers a Straight Plug. SO a 64 CC Chamber, 180 Runners and either the 264 or 270 Comp Cam? .015 Head gasket Fel Pro? Am I on target here?

Also JaBot where can I get the lifters you Told me about?

Anyone HAve any other Lifter Ideas that I can get from Summit or Jegs?

Thanks and Happy Holidays.

 

http://johncalliesinc.com/

 

COMP Cams Short Travel Race Hydraulic Roller Lifters 15853-16
I've experience with several sets of these.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...3-16/overview/

 

click on the dealers link in the johncallies link above

 

I've been trying to do just that and can't find anyone that carries the 5372 lifter.
Howard's Cams, Cam Motion, and a couple of others have no listing.
http://johncalliesinc.com/product.php?ProductNo=5372

 

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/sb...-lifters-5372/

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/mor...raulic-roller/

 

Anyone that has an active dealer account should have access to that lifter, even if it's not listed. Just give them a phonecall and ask for it.

 

Checked out Straub.
Very reasonably priced considering they compare in cost to the old Comp 853 which I've had troubles with (as have others apparently). I stepped up to the 15853 Comp short travel lifter which has many of the features of the Morels (primarily the tool steel construction as opposed to a cast lifter body) but is 50% more in price. I would have picked the Morels had I known.

 

Morel 5372 is what I need? There for a retro fit? Comp and Trick flow both said something about a bar type Lifter or something for retro fit.

 

A link bar lifter is a retro-fit lifter. The link bar is what keeps the lifter from rotating.
The 5372 is a link bar/reto-fit roller lifter.

 

Guess you don't know what the stroke of a 350 is nor the fact this O/P's engine isn't decked.Sure seems like your looking for a argument.


The whole concept of quench isn't to limit the chamber size to achieve a .035 to .040 quench number.Far and away it is much better to use a 64cc chamber@0 deck with the appropriate D-cup pistons for a lager A/F charge.Doing it the backdoor way is backwards.

Well to start with,no one has addressed the possibility his engine's pistons uses the standard "re-builder's" pistons which is all the wrong pin height.That throws a wrench in the whole thing.What I am saying is there is a great likelihood his pistons are the wrong pin height.


My bottom line in a suggestion is he doesn't want to start over using what he has given how new the engine is.I don't see him spending money that should be applied towards a correct build of a second engine and one that from the start is a GM roller block like a L31.He saves the retro fit costs so he can apply that money elsewhere.If he plays this right,he gets a donor for the L31,takes what he needs,scraps the rest to retrieve back some of his money.Also as apart of the strategy,when he is confident the newly built L31 is all settled in and done,sells his low mileage Goodwrench off to get back another portion of his money.That means selling it off unmodified.

It doesn't make much sense seeing him make the same mistake in trying to do a save that dozens and dozen of other guys have done only to end up in the same place.Far and away the smarter money is to start a L31 build towards a very inexpensive easily gotten bigger goal.Now that is certainly a bigger bang for his buck.

 

Not to speak for BlackZ but my understanding of this whole endeavor is not about what's the best approach to building a 350 but rather what's the best approach to building something already in hand. In hand would be a low mileage Goodwrench 350.
The application of all of our theories, concepts and opinions I thought should be directed towards trying to take a less than ideal foundation (as has been pointed out many times) and work with it. Hence BlackZ's request for a head/cam combination that will produce a decent performer and when the time comes, be in a position to move most of the new components onto an even newer shortblock.
You do raise an intersesting point though Gary. Is this Goodwrench short an original uncut engine or has it had the once over already? Could be all sorts of nasty surprises in there.
Regarding the L31 approach, it would be interesting to do the pros and cons cost list (as was suggested by Sofa way back on page 1) comparing a new longblock to a worked over existing shortblock. Problem is, without the actual purchase price of a L31, the whole excercise is speculative at best. I can see the advantages though. There a considerable savings in the cost of the heads alone which has already been listed as starting in the $1300 range. $1300 would go a long ways towards a used longblock.
It's the old "bird in the hand, two in the bush" adage. I understand BlackZ's approach though. Start with what you've got and build on it. I did the same thing many years ago and I bet most have done it too.

 

Since there are no more inexpensive and low mileage vortec motors left. He can still have a nice running street engine with a butt load of torque using the shortblock he has now and once again still be able to use the heads for a later build. The limiting factor of the heads in the future wouldn't be 58cc it would be the small;er runner size!

 

how about some 49cc heads?
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...r-volume-cc/49

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Dart-Iro...7f2fce&vxp=mtr

lots of tough decisions.
i know its more work and money, but your probably better off changing pistons or engines as suggested.
sometimes you can find great deals at machine shops when people dont pay they're bill.

compression builds power weather its natural, no2, turbo, etc. JMO.

 

how about some 49cc heads?
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...r-volume-cc/49

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Dart-Iron-Eagle-SBC-Street-Fully-Assembled-Angled-Cylinder-Heads-200cc-49cc-/261347028942?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cd97f2fce&vxp=mtr
lots of tough decisions.
i know its more work and money, but your probably better off changing pistons or engines as suggested.
sometimes you can find great deals at machine shops when people dont pay they're bill.

compression builds power weather its natural, no2, turbo, etc. JMO.

 

not sure why that double posted?

 

Ya got your standards working for "Ajax engine re-builders" exclusive supplier to "Hung Low" service and repair shop.

Ajax's and Hung Low's is a great place to visit given nothing matters and everything is acceptable.But ya don't want to live there.

Then I have mine where by our books we have done pretty well doing it right.

If you get anything at all-take this away.Larger chamber=bigger A/F charge.Hint-hint.

 

Joe those 49's are the same thing as the RHS 72's.Not many N/A's run 72's.The reason behind them was for people to cut them to what they need with a target market of 350/355's given a 180cc intake.They just work well for a iron head.

 

Oh yeah the 49's are targeted for the oval and dirt track guys.Many of them running Alky engines.Talk about almost flat.Holy Cow!!!!.

 

 

I understand that If I was to start with a different short block now that in the long run It would be cheaper then my approach, I am ok with that. At this point I just want to have a good/strong running motor which I do think I can do with my current short block, I am not looking to be on the TV show Street racers but I would like to have some power under the hood that can make you smile when you get on it. WHo Knows down teh road I may swap a LS series motor in.

I have owned this car for many years 20 Plus, and I have swapped motors in and out a bunch of times But at this stage I would just like to beef up this one.

If I buy a roller block down the road what would I be out the cost of the Lifters and the cam? Everything else should swap over.

 

The lifters and cam will be MUCH cheaper with a roller ready block instead of retrofitting. $300 or so for the cam and $150-250 for the lifters.

 

64 cc heads. Iron or aluminum. Iron will make more power in this case but in reality you probably would never notice a difference.
.015" head gasket. Hope the block deck is in good enough shape to work with the shim style gasket.
Cam in the 268 range. Retro roller. The lifters follow the heads to the next block. Cam goes on the shelf.
All the supporting parts that you have now or I believe you have now. Carb, intake, distributor, rocker arms, headers.
That's as good as it's going to get for the investment.
You can spend more to get more if you want but it becomes a case of diminishing returns.
The compromise you'll make is already documented and your target of a high 300 chp power level isn't likely with the Goodwrench block but planned carefully will make plenty of torque. Enough to make you happy when you mash it. Especially with the stick shift trans.
There's not a whole lot left to say.

 

Isn't it all relative? If you have a large chamber then you'll reduce the CR unless you increase the CI of the engine.

Compression Ratio=Chamber volume + swept volume divided by swept volume


Doesn't a small compact chamber and a flat piston help promote combustion, reduce the amount of heat energy tranfered out of the combustion chamber and into the cooling system and decrease the likelyhood of detonation? These are all fundamental principles I thought.
It should also decrease the timing requirements.

 

You are an idiot
Where did I insinuate or say just throw it together it doesn't matter. Where was any of my suggestions or info just throwing it together or even incorect? I gave perfect examples for now and future builds. These examples will be totally with in acceptable quench, scr and dcr depending on cam selection. And so have other people given acceptable setups. How is this just throw it together?
You need to get off you high horse. Not everything you think or say is the only correct way or even correct for that matter.

For the most part it is.
But he is just probably going to contradict himself again

 

One of the keys Skinny is the D-cup style piston.The flat to promote quench and flame travel and the D-cup for a SCR reduction at 0 deck.

Then as I have been saying a 180cc intake runner to promote a all around power curve at a lower RPM with a 64cc chamber to maximize the size of the A/F mixture.It is both that tailors the power curve at what RPM along with a matched cam to the SCR.And that cam's timing event selection with the SCR that sets the DCR for iron heads of 8.5.

The quench @ a target of .035 to .040 is a tool for reduce detonation.That frees up your ability to timing on ignition.

Lastly I have been insisting his engine is likely to have re-builder's piston pin height which are turds for performance and is the one point that people seem not to know or choose to ignore.He needs to measure piston to deck once he gets the heads off and adjust his build plan and calculations to what that is.If he isn't willing to deck the block and even then with the wrong pin height,it is a killer for performance.

 

If I anything at all it is consistent.Show the contradiction.The use of 58cc heads is the backdoor method with consequences.I do take into account there are just some people that are too hard headed to teach.Most are educated by the hot rod comic book articles.

Again-the wrong piston pin height throws his whole build plans out the window.A fact brought to light by whom??.Opps-that be me.

 

i do agree with Gary's comment about pulling the heads off and getting all the facts together before ordering parts. at the very least to make sure what style piston is in there for sure. most likely its a big dish, bad quench, thick gasket, 9.025 deck, etc. but its all guess work at this point.

Sofa's post makes more and more sense, the more you think about the cost to convert to a retro roller. if the short block was more stout i could understand.

 

The 58cc is absolutely not a back door method. Would I build a fresh 350 engine from scratch using them? No, I would use flat tops and 64cc's. But as I pointed out numerous times if you have the 58cc heads it can work perfect with an off the shelf piston around -12 dcup and you know this but it is not your way of doing things or it doesn't use your special brands of parts so you will never admit it.


The piston to deck on his engine is about 38 to 40 and the pistons are about -12. How do I know this? Because thousands of people have taken them apart! And guess what? How do you think its known that the compression is actually 7.8 to 8 to 1 instead of the 8.5 it was originally rated at? And the difference between 7.8 and 8 is due to gm using a couple different head gaskets thickness' over the years
But yes you should always double check the piston to deck height. Any engine could not be what is supposed to.

 

That was going to my approach to building the stroker 355 (388) when I was forced to build another shortblock after my original ingested to much camshaft material. (Remember my iron headed compression ratio thread a while back?)

I'm 100% behind the 180cc intake however isn't a DCR of 8.5:1 a little high for iron heads? Remember the thread I referred to?
4.03 x 3.48
64cc head with a .026 x 4.100 gasket.
5cc piston down .014". Quench .040".
274/282, 110LSA/106ICL
SCR 10.39:1, DCR 8.39:1
Detonates on 100 octane race fuel with reduced timing.
It's just not a workable compression ratio and no one has shown an example to the contrary.
I'm going to shoot for less than 10:1 this time around and a DCR of 8:1. That opens my quench up a little to .050" but that's still beneficial.

Isn't .035" quench a little on the tight side? I'd think that's a target to shoot for with a very precisely assembled new shortblock.

I was understanding that this engine was purchased new by the OP. Wouldn't that make it an OEM piston?

Of course without BlackZ chiming in here, it's all guesswork.

 

That only makes sense. I would think that disassembly is essential before making the next move.

Retro-fit cost analysis.

Flat tappet kit. http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...56-4/overview/

Retro roller kit. http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...12-8/overview/

Timing cover/cam button http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...-221/overview/

Lifters seperately http://www.straubtechnologies.com/sb...-lifters-5372/

Cam: purchased seperately. 300
Lifters: Morels from Straub. 380
Timing cover/cam button. 130
Subtract the cost of a flat tappet kit. 200.
That puts the cost of a roller conversion, (cam, lifters and cam button) around 600 bucks total.

 

yes .040 or even .045 would be a safer bet