Duke Napalm

Hey guys,

I come to you with what I hope will be an easily solvable problem. I've got an '86 camaro with a punched out 350 (block was out of a '72 c-10) and an HEI ignition system. A couple days ago, I decided to redo everything down to the module with MSD parts, cap, rotor, module, coil, and wires. Simple stuff, done the exact same thing many times before without a problem. Trouble is, I didn't swap the cap wire-by-wire like I usually do because I figured I could just look up the firing order of a 350 sbc with the HEI. I did so, and everything appears to be hooked up properly, but the car won't start!

I know it's getting plenty of spark, first thing I did was pull a plug and check it out. Now, the guy I bought the car from says the distributor was put on a gear off, and I'm not sure what that changes. Tried putting the wires forward and back on the posts at the cap to no avail, most I can get it to do is backfire a bit! Could it be a timing issue, maybe? Keep in mind that I did not mess with the timing at all when doing my tune-up, so if it's getting such excellent spark I'm assuming it's got to do with wire placement on the cap itself!

Any ideas??

Thank you.

midias

Line up the engine to TDC and make sure the #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke. Take of the distributor cap. Is the rotor pointing at cylinder #1?

eseibel67

That's the way to do it. Then just go through the firing order clockwise around the cap.

If the car ran before you took it apart, the timing will be fine. Just leave it as is or you will be introducing a new variable that wasn't there before.

Duke Napalm

What do you think the best way to go about doing that would be? I thought about cranking it over by hand, but don't much enjoy the prospect of yanking all the plugs out right after I put them all in. Is there another relatively painless way to find TDC?

eseibel67

I would take the pulley off the balancer, put a couple of bolts in and turn engine with pry bar. I would resist the temptation to turn the engine by the crank bolt with 7 spark plugs still in it.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Have someone in the car bump it over. Look at the balancer, and pull #1 spark plug. Stick you finger in the hole, have them bump it quickly. You'll feel it when that cylinder is on it's compression stroke. Once you do, look at the balancer.

Hopefully you didn't pass it up, and then you'll need to manually turn the engine to TDC on the balancer. Be careful and don't break the crank bolt! If it's too hard…then you'll need to pull the plugs. Once you have TDC lined up on the balancer, take off your distributor cap. Is the rotor pointing at the #1 plug wire on the cap? If not, you either need to rotate the distributor till it does.

Generally, you want it pointing to both the #1 cylinder on the cap AND the actual #1 cylinder on the engine…then everything's oriented properly. Double check your firing order. If you have spark and fuel it should run…then you'll need to set the timing.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

…which is the safest bet not to break a crank bolt. They also have a device that bolts onto the front of your cancer and allows you to turn it with a 1" wrench….Some people don't have a "feel" for how much is TOO MUCH and break the bolt head off….then you have a mess.

Duke Napalm

Also, just as an addendum, I lined up the little white mark on the balancer with the zero on the timing tab, and then had my buddy turn the engine over from there with my finger in the #1 plug hole.

I'm pretty sure it was on the compression stroke, as air was being pushed out for a split second before being sucked in again. But if that was the case, then I'm even more confused now. Because the rotor was pointing almost exactly toward the post for the #6 cylinder, all the way in the back. Is that even possible??

AlkyIROC

You never pulled the distributor out of the engine?

#1 on the distributor can be positioned anywhere but it's normally in the 5 o'clock position when looking at the distributor from the front. Distributor rotor rotates clockwise. Firing order is 18436572.

To confirm that everything is working fine even if the timing is out of whack, install a timing light on any of the plug wires. While cranking the engine over, the timing light should flash every time a spark pulse is sent down the plug wire. Doesn't mean it's firing to the correct cylinder at the correct time but can tell you that the plugs are getting spark.

eseibel67

If you are on the intake stroke of TDC, the piston will still push some air out of the hole. Turn the balancer around 1 revolution and you will be firing on #1.

Duke Napalm

Thanks for the info/helpful suggestions guys, I really do appreciate it a ton!

And no, I did not pull the distributor. The only things I did were cap, rotor (the new one pointing in the same direction as the old) module, coil, and wires. Everything should be getting spark. The car ran fine before I did this, too.

The post for cylinder number one is about at the 6 o'clock position, which has to be due to the thing being put in a gear off, right?

Could this screw up the firing order?

(I'll probably have to invest in a timing light, more than like)

Duke Napalm

On the balancer itself, there are numbers ranging from 10 to 60 with 10 little tic marks between numbers, which I always thought indicated however many degrees off TDC you were from initial timing. Just by bumping the starter, I got the balancer on the "0" tic mark lined up with the zero on the timing tab. Does that mean this is TDC, and I should wire everything up accordingly? I get the feeling that I'm dead wrong on something here though.

AlkyIROC

Since the #1 on the cap could be anywhere and you said when you felt the air rushing out the plug hole and the rotor was at the #6 plug position, see if you can move the wires around with #1 starting at the #6 position. That is providing they're all long enough.

A previous rebuild may have dropped the distributor in 180* out.

Duke Napalm

TD

Aaaaaand that was exactly what happened. Whoever originally put in this distributor made a complete mess of things and it was frigging backwards! Started by connecting the #1 wire to the #6 post and went from there. I was so disgusted that I manned up, pulled all the plugs, and the entire distributor. Cranked it over by hand to find actual TDC and popped it back in the correct way. I think I'd brain whoever did most of this work originally with a tire iron if given half the chance.

Thank you for all the help!

midias

Glad you put it in correctly. Do it once right and you life always gets better.

AlkyIROC

So what somebody did was when they installed the camshaft and timing chain, they lined up the dots on the gears when the distributor was dropped in. When the dots on both gears are lined up, the cam is on #6 TDC. When the dots on both gears are straight up the cam is at #1 TDC.

FRMULA88

Here is the reason why

When you install the cam & timing chain on a rebuild you line up the cam and crank gears dot to dot. This gets you the close to the manufacturer's specs without having to use a degree wheel.

Once you have the gears dot to dot and the chain in installed you then rotate the engine until both dots are straight up (12 o'clock position) this should be tdc for number one Piston.

Install and adjust your distributor accordingly. The rotor should be @ 5' o clock position for #1 spark plug terminal.

Once you get the engine to start you then can put a timing light to it and adjust the timing accurately. 16-18 degrees initial and 30-36 total for a sbc... initial and total timing depends on how built the engine is but these are typical ranges..