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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I swapped this from TBI to TPI & when I initially started it, it was revving extremly high. I'm talking above 4k rpm. I of course shut it down immediatly, I did hear some knock before I shut it down.
I then took the dizzy out to try and find TDC again and make sure timing was good, as I attemp to turn the crank by hand, it gets stuck at what I thing is TDC & at another point. (Not sure which cylinder) I pulled out all the plugs and it is still getting stuck.
The Plug on #1 cylinder was damaged pretty badly, when I say that I mean it no longer had gap when I pulled it out. Any idea why it wont turn by hand past cylinder #1? Could something possibly of broken when I started it initially? & why in the hell would it start with such high idle to begin with?
Oh and BTW, when I turn it by hand I can hear a hissing sound, I dont know where its coming from, but it sounds like air coming our of somewhere.... I cannot find where its coming from, & it was not there before.
The hissing sound is compression, it's coming out of the spark plug holes and is a good thing.
4 stroke engine, think of it as SSBB, Suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Meaning draws in air or sucks in air on intake stroke, squeezes air or compresses air on compression stroke, spark makes the bang on the power stroke, and it expels /blows out the spent gases on the exhaust stroke.
Every engine should have some resistance when it reaches TDC on compression stroke.
How are you turning the engine by hand? If your just grabbing the belts and trying to turn it, that's why you can't. It's gonna take 45-65 ft lbs of torque to turn engine over. Put a 1/2" drive 5/8" socket on a breaker bar and put socket on center bolt of damper/crank pulley and turn engine. You should not have much trouble then.
As far as the spark plug damage. It sounds like you have the wrong plugs in the engine. Sounds like those plugs are too long and are hitting. What plug # and brand are you using?
Spark plugs are correct I work at oreilly and I got them off the shelf myself...
I am turning the engine with a breaker bar & it turns fine untill I get to what I believe is TDC. It also gets stuck at another point. The only way to get it past those two points is to bump the key.
Jacked up sparkplug = mechanical damage. Time to pull the head.
I pulled the drivers side valve cover and did not see anything out of whack. I will do the passenger side now and see how that looks.
I just went and got my battery charged thinking it was dead because I had a weak crank but when i put the fully charged battery back on I still have a slow crank. You know the crank you get when the battery is low or dying....
What kind of mechanical damage do you think could have occured? & anything in particular I should be looking for? Another thing I noticed just now is that all my antifreeze turned a nasty looking brown.....
I pulled the drivers side valve cover and did not see anything out of whack. I will do the passenger side now and see how that looks.
I just went and got my battery charged thinking it was dead because I had a weak crank but when i put the fully charged battery back on I still have a slow crank. You know the crank you get when the battery is low or dying....
What kind of mechanical damage do you think could have occured? & anything in particular I should be looking for? Another thing I noticed just now is that all my antifreeze turned a nasty looking brown.....
! OH BOY Is there water in your oil too??? This don't sound good at all
"I swapped this from TBI to TPI & when I initially started it, it was revving extremly high. I'm talking above 4k rpm. I of course shut it down immediately"
You must have been sucking a HUGE AMOUNT of air on startup. Is the intake the right TPI Base, ports all line up?
Pulled the other valve cover & I do not see anything that looks out of whack there either. I check my dipstick and the first pull did look extra liquidy. I put it back in and pulled it out again and it looked fine....
What am I looking for when I remove my valve cover? Or is something to do with the pistons? If its the pistons I need to look at what am I looking for on that?
"I swapped this from TBI to TPI & when I initially started it, it was revving extremly high. I'm talking above 4k rpm. I of course shut it down immediately"
You must have been sucking a HUGE AMOUNT of air on startup. Is the intake the right TPI Base, ports all line up?
The TPI base is from a 92 and the intake itself is from an 86. As far as I know it should all match up fine & I did not notice anything strange when I was putting it together.
The brake booster vacuum line was not connected when I started up & I later discovered the driver side runner was not bolted all the way down. Could that of caused it?
The TPI base is from a 92 and the intake itself is from an 86. As far as I know it should all match up fine & I did not notice anything strange when I was putting it together.
The brake booster vacuum line was not connected when I started up & I later discovered the driver side runner was not bolted all the way down. Could that of caused it?
If its dead, I really need help determining the cause of death on my poor little 305 before I begin taking the thing out. I'd hate to repeat my mistake...
Your massive vacuum leak is more than likely what caused your high idle, or a contributing factor at the very least. Nothing to do now but tear the motor down.
Your massive vacuum leak is more than likely what caused your high idle, or a contributing factor at the very least. Nothing to do now but tear the motor down.
Any thoughts on what could of caused such a massive vacuum leak? Would my loose driver-side runner cause a massive vaccum leak?
Could the brake booster vacuum line not being connected been the sole contributor?
Extremely disappointed. But I guess, you live and you learn.... I was very anxious to try and start it since Id been having trouble with pulse & I just got a custom tune that deleted vats and I finally had pulse!
So I went to start it and the damn thing actually ran.....
Anyone have any idea why its cranking the way it is?
My guess goes along with the other gents who've said that your 4000 + RPM run has broken something , be it a rod (sounds like #1 from the description of the mashed plug) or maybe something valvetrain (not likely , but we can hope , right ?) , but you won't know till ya stop cranking it and start taking it apart . Pull the heads off , not just the valvecovers but the actual cylinder heads themselves , THEN crank the engine and see how many pistons ya got going up and down . You may find that ol #1 don't move when the crank is rotated . If so , It's likely far better (cheaper) to swap in a running engine rather than to try and reconstruct something that blew up .
I wish you the best of luck with whatever you find .....
Last edited by OrangeBird; 03-18-2015 at 05:16 PM.
Man, I'd really like to know definitively where that vacuum leak was.
Can anyone give me a heads up on which vacuum lines I should check to prevent that from happening again? Any tips or tricks you guys may know. I'd hate to put a new block in there and just have that happen again....
Man, I'd really like to know definitively where that vacuum leak was.
Can anyone give me a heads up on which vacuum lines I should check to prevent that from happening again? Any tips or tricks you guys may know. I'd hate to put a new block in there and just have that happen again....
I have a tip: Slow down! These are the results when starting an engine before putting it completely back together. Especially if you are less than experienced, double and triple check everything you take apart and put it back exactly where you found it. It's much easier these days than when I was a kid, I wish I had an unlimited hi-res instant camera in my pocket.
I have a tip: Slow down! These are the results when starting an engine before putting it completely back together. Especially if you are less than experienced, double and triple check everything you take apart and put it back exactly where you found it. It's much easier these days than when I was a kid, I wish I had an unlimited hi-res instant camera in my pocket.
This thread is the reason I don't trust guys behind the counter of advanced/autozone/ect....
Not a very nice thing to say , this guy is trying to learn , NOBODY, including me OR you , were born with all the knowledge of a master tech . We all learn from different sources/experiences and we all know the lessons learned from "the school of hard knocks" are the ones best remembered . Yep , the dude trashed his engine by mistake , do we REALLY need to "rub his nose in it" like a puppy potty training session gone bad ?
Now , as to the OP and his question , YES YES YES !!!!! a thousand times YES , not having the brake booster connected and having the runners loose was most certainly plenty of vacuum leaking to have caused the RPMs to hit the 4K + it did . With that much extra air going in , the ECM saw it as though you had your foot 3/4 of the way to the floor on the gas pedal and the excessive RPM was the result . The "knock" you reported just as you shut it down was most likely the #1 rod letting go and there is not much else to do except get that head off to verify this as fact . Once you determine it is in fact a broken connecting rod , have a few beers , scream at the wind a bit , and then begin planning your replacement engine install .
PS , a funny (scary) side story ;
In my working life , I was a FAA licensed A&P mechanic (Airframe & Powerplant , for those wondering what the A&P stands for) . I saw the results of a fellow mechanic forgetting to put a "chafing ring" back into a Hamilton Standard constant speed propeller . At about 2K RPM this plane shot a blade out of it's hub (which was never found) and the ensuing vibration literally tore the engine from the front of the plane ! Yep , completely destroyed this (small) aircraft for the omission of just one component . I tell you this just to reinforce the fact that even with the best of intentions , mistakes DO happen , as we are ALL Human and Humans DO , at times , make mistakes . The last supposedly "Perfect Human" to walk the earth ended up nailed to a cross , lets not crucify this guy over his mistake , lest the Karma gods visit a real snafu on us for gloating over another's mistaken misfortune ........
I have a tip: Slow down! These are the results when starting an engine before putting it completely back together. Especially if you are less than experienced, double and triple check everything you take apart and put it back exactly where you found it. It's much easier these days than when I was a kid, I wish I had an unlimited hi-res instant camera in my pocket.
eseibel67....Ya beat me too it! It is IMPERATIVE that you double and triple check and then once again check before EVER trying to start.
Have a checklist and go down through it. Saying that you found the runner/runners loose, brake booster line off, and who knows what's not buttoned up, you'll have issues. With the runner/runners losse is like starting the car up with the throttle blades wide open sucking TONS of air!!! Slow down and listen. These/us guys are trying to steer you in the right direction.
SOMETHING in the engine is not right. Follow the guidance and press forward. Pull the heads, do a look over, rotate the crank, and see whats happening. It's probebly lower end; which is bad.
I have a tip: Slow down! These are the results when starting an engine before putting it completely back together. Especially if you are less than experienced, double and triple check everything you take apart and put it back exactly where you found it. It's much easier these days than when I was a kid, I wish I had an unlimited hi-res instant camera in my pocket.
Great advice
As a beginner I have my notebook where I write down everything I do:
- Took out left runner
- Removed Throttle body
Then take pictures for almost every step
When I need to put things back, I just go step by step in reverse, then if I am not sure about wiring, connections, etc, I go and look at the pictures.
Another advice is to put all you remove in bags and then label them, for example, all the intake stuff in one bag, and if the screws are different sizes, like the ones from the runners, I use masking tape around them and write the location from left to right (1, 2, 3, etc..)
This worked for me, took apart all the engine and put it back for the first time without issues
Not a very nice thing to say , this guy is trying to learn , NOBODY, including me OR you , were born with all the knowledge of a master tech . We all learn from different sources/experiences and we all know the lessons learned from "the school of hard knocks" are the ones best remembered . Yep , the dude trashed his engine by mistake , do we REALLY need to "rub his nose in it" like a puppy potty training session gone bad ?
Now , as to the OP and his question , YES YES YES !!!!! a thousand times YES , not having the brake booster connected and having the runners loose was most certainly plenty of vacuum leaking to have caused the RPMs to hit the 4K + it did . With that much extra air going in , the ECM saw it as though you had your foot 3/4 of the way to the floor on the gas pedal and the excessive RPM was the result . The "knock" you reported just as you shut it down was most likely the #1 rod letting go and there is not much else to do except get that head off to verify this as fact . Once you determine it is in fact a broken connecting rod , have a few beers , scream at the wind a bit , and then begin planning your replacement engine install .
PS , a funny (scary) side story ;
In my working life , I was a FAA licensed A&P mechanic (Airframe & Powerplant , for those wondering what the A&P stands for) . I saw the results of a fellow mechanic forgetting to put a "chafing ring" back into a Hamilton Standard constant speed propeller . At about 2K RPM this plane shot a blade out of it's hub (which was never found) and the ensuing vibration literally tore the engine from the front of the plane ! Yep , completely destroyed this (small) aircraft for the omission of just one component . I tell you this just to reinforce the fact that even with the best of intentions , mistakes DO happen , as we are ALL Human and Humans DO , at times , make mistakes . The last supposedly "Perfect Human" to walk the earth ended up nailed to a cross , lets not crucify this guy over his mistake , lest the Karma gods visit a real snafu on us for gloating over another's mistaken misfortune ........
Your right, we are all human, and god knows I've made my share of mistakes. I apologize to the OP, but I got frustrated reading this thread. It went on for 20 posts before we finally got him to believe that his engine was toast and to pull the damn heads. He was being a little stubborn, but I guess if my engine had just popped I'd be in denial as well. Nothing to do now but to put this down as a learning experience and pull the engine apart.
Well, Just got back from Austin Tx. Picked up an LB9 from a an 89 G92 IROC, guy said it had about 134k when he put it down.
Going to begin the removal process tomorrow. hopefully I can have it running in no time.
I will take what I learned from my unfortunate mistake and use it to ensure this one goes smoothly.
Considering that engine has been sitting for about a year and a half. Do you guys think I should take any special procedures when first starting it? The previous owner said something about priming it?
Well, Just got back from Austin Tx. Picked up an LB9 from a an 89 G92 IROC, guy said it had about 134k when he put it down.
Going to begin the removal process tomorrow. hopefully I can have it running in no time.
I will take what I learned from my unfortunate mistake and use it to ensure this one goes smoothly.
Considering that engine has been sitting for about a year and a half. Do you guys think I should take any special procedures when first starting it? The previous owner said something about priming it?
I guess he was refering to priming the oil pump so that oil will circulate through the engine before you start it up.
I actually did this before starting mine, this is a link that was useful to me:
You can search on youtube there are a few people that show you how to use the oil primer tool, it is something you put on a drill and through the distributor hole to turn the oil pump. Obviously you need to have oil in the engine
If you have an old distributor you don't mind cannibalizing you can make your own tool to prime the oil pump. If I recall all you do is remove the shaft from the distributor, re-install the gear, grind the teeth off the gear, then chuck up the rotor end in the drill & drop the other end in the motor.
Your right, we are all human, and god knows I've made my share of mistakes. I apologize to the OP, but I got frustrated reading this thread. It went on for 20 posts before we finally got him to believe that his engine was toast and to pull the damn heads. He was being a little stubborn, but I guess if my engine had just popped I'd be in denial as well. Nothing to do now but to put this down as a learning experience and pull the engine apart.
Hey Formula 305 , Thank You for that ! I do appreciate that you took my post as not being an attack on you , because I really didn't mean for it to be . I do understand that it can be frustrating when someone doesn't seem to be grasping the ideas being posted and many times I have to walk away from the computer myself . I really do think the one flaw in forum communications is that without hearing the person actually speaking the words it's really hard to determine whether the person is being serious , funny , sarcastic , or any other emotion that can be conveyed in a post . Anyway , I'm happy that we are all good , and now for a return to the topic I'll post a photo for the OP of a pre oiler I made from a junk distributor when I rebuilt the mighty 2.8 in the orangebird . there are only three steps involved , first , milling off the distributor drive gear . Second is removing all the top components of the distributor , and last is milling down the top of the shaft (where the pick up coil and rotor used to be) so it will fit in the chuck of a 3/8" drill . That's it . You put your pre made pre oiler in the block , ensure proper oil level in the oilpan , and then spin the pre oiler in the proper direction to pump oil throughout the engine . I did this with the valve covers removed (VERY messy !) so I could see all 12 rockers (16 in your case) flow oil freely which insured the oil passages were as full of oil as if I just drove it yesterday (old guy here , took me a couple of years to get it all put back together) .
You will find a bit of disagreement as to the benefits of pre oiling , and to be honest I can see the argument that a rebuilt engine should have the assembly lube to protect it and that it shouldn't be needed . But in the instance of an engine that has sat , and is not being rebuilt , I am 100% in favor of pre oiling .
As a side point of info , ALL aircraft engines above Cessna sized have an electric oil pump that does this very job , pre oiling the engine , before EVERY start ! Yep , that crankshaft isn't allowed to be rotated even 1/2 revolution without already established oil pressure . To the ones who poo poo the notion of pre oiling , I will say that if it's good enough for the aircraft that people's very lives depend on , for every start , well then it's plenty good enough for our beloved Firebirds (and Camaros too ) when we've got an engine going in with a relatively unknown history .
Last edited by OrangeBird; 03-20-2015 at 06:55 AM.
OrangeBird, there is defiantly gap when posting on the internet or even texting, where the tone of what your saying is lost, and how you say something is just as important as what your saying. This can defiantly be frustrating. I hope we're all good here, as I'm just here to learn & to pass on what knowledge I do have, like everybody else. Don't wanna step on anybody's toes.
Lmancha96, motor looks clean! Especially for 134K. Hopefully it'll be a solid motor for ya, just take your time putting this one together, and if you start to get tired or frustrated with it just walk away for a bit. Sometimes you have to put the wrench down and take a break, even tho you want to get it done so you can drive the car, it may save you time & $$$ in the long run. May not hurt to have someone double check your work too if you're unsure.
Lmancha96.. I read through your entire build thread and looked at all the pictures. I noticed in one of the pictures of the new engine in the car with no runners and plenum on it yet.
Please do yourself a favor this time and COVER THOSE PORTS UP SO NOTHING FALLS IN THEM!!!
one thing going forward: if an engine feels like it's hitting something internally that makes it come to a hard stop when you are turning it over by hand: DO NOT TRY TO START IT WITH THE STARTER..
also, make sure every vacuum port on the engine is at least plugged with a short chunk of hose with a bolt or screwdriver in it before starting it... but that won't cause something to physically stop the engine from turning.. that was probably caused when you dropped something down an intake port when doing the swap: that one nut that you remember dropping but never hit the floor(just assuming here... there is ALWAYS that one nut that you drop but never hear hit the ground) probably wound up in the #1 cylinder, which is what smashed the plug electrode and is what is stopping you from being able to turn it over by hand when that cylinder comes up to TDC..
also, what spark plugs were you running? if you didn't drop a nut down the runner, then the tip was obviously sticking into the chamber far enough to hit the piston... whatever they were, don't use them again. AC Delco R45TS is what you want, R44TS if you want a little colder plug because that's what all the cool race car people use and you are convinced that will make your car into a race car.. you don't want any extra letters or numbers at the end- just R45TS- and you don't want to use any other brand or anything with multiple electrodes and other gimmicky things that look cool on the packaging but do nothing but impede the flame front in the chamber and suck cash out of your wallet when you buy them.
southbaysd Thanks for the heads up I will check out that link.
formula305 No hard feelings man, were good.
I appreciate everyone taking the time to offer some advice. Very lucky to have such an awesome community of Thirdgen Enthusiast.
orangebird I will definitely be pre oiling the engine before anything else. The previous owner said it sat for about a year and a half. I have a couple of distributors that I wont be using sitting around somewhere so I will definitely be able to put together one of those tools.
Bob88gta Will do, thanks.
novaderrick I was using the Bosh platinum's part #6712 the engine ran fine with them for about two years. So it is more likely something could have fallen in. Thanks for the heads up I will get some R45TS's next time.
I will definitely make sure everything is buttoned up correctly this time before starting it up.
By the way the black Iroc is my brothers its an 86. He will be dropping a 383 and beefed up 700r4 into it soon. The white GTA is an 87 with an L98 also his.
And also , as a general point of good working habit , one should never use the engine (or anywhere else under the hood , really) as a worktable or perch for tools and parts . It's all too easy to forget and leave a for real "wrench in the works" causing damage that should have been prevented . Those bolts could truly end up anywhere down any of those holes and really screw up all your effort thus far . To be honest , I'm SO paranoid about loosing things down them holes that any time I have a manifold off I stuff ALL the holes with the red shop rags ya get at the corner autoparts store . If I had an unknown engine open as long as that one's been , I'd have to rent one of those "borescopes" and have a peek down them holes looking for any kinds of debris , varmints , or skeletons .
I personally run Castrol GTX High Mileage 10W-40 in my bird, its the only thing I run & I beat the **** out of that 305 that has almost 200K on the odometer.
Hey guys got another update for yall. The Car is finally running. It runs great and is almost road worthy. Its currently sitting at an electrician shop getting some wiring issues worked out. Once that is done it will be ready.
03-18-2015, 01:26 PM
for the input but its def something else. 
! OH BOY Is there water in your oil too??? This don't sound good at all 
My guess goes along with the other gents who've said that your 4000 + RPM run has broken something , be it a rod (sounds like #1 from the description of the mashed plug) or maybe something valvetrain (not likely , but we can hope , right ?) , but you won't know till ya stop cranking it and start taking it apart . Pull the heads off , not just the valvecovers but the actual cylinder heads themselves , THEN crank the engine and see how many pistons ya got going up and down . You may find that ol #1 don't move when the crank is rotated . If so , It's likely far better (cheaper) to swap in a running engine rather than to try and reconstruct something that blew up . 
I wish you the best of luck with whatever you find ..... 
Not a very nice thing to say , this guy is trying to learn , NOBODY, including me OR you , were born with all the knowledge of a master tech . We all learn from different sources/experiences and we all know the lessons learned from "the school of hard knocks" are the ones best remembered . Yep , the dude trashed his engine by mistake , do we REALLY need to "rub his nose in it" like a puppy potty training session gone bad ? 
in the orangebird . there are only three steps involved , first , milling off the distributor drive gear . Second is removing all the top components of the distributor , and last is milling down the top of the shaft (where the pick up coil and rotor used to be) so it will fit in the chuck of a 3/8" drill . That's it . You put your pre made pre oiler in the block , ensure proper oil level in the oilpan , and then spin the pre oiler in the proper direction to pump oil throughout the engine . I did this with the valve covers removed (VERY messy !) so I could see all 12 rockers (16 in your case) flow oil freely which insured the oil passages were as full of oil as if I just drove it yesterday (old guy here , took me a couple of years to get it all put back together) . 
