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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
For interested readers here is my ongoing project to boost my bird.
Thanks to Project89, OrrRocz, FastEddi, and others who have gone before me and been willing to share their knowledge.
This is a first time boost build for me and I'm ready to make my typical host of mistakes. I ponder a lot, google a lot, work in small steps, and take a long time to do things with the limited time and $ I have for my car.
I've had the car for about 3 years now, it was a stock formula 350, only an MSD added I think. It has just over 100K on it. I ran it on the portable dyno at a car show in Orlando a couple years ago and it still put out stock numbers. In my youth I had a 71 GTO with the 455 HO, which I drag raced. As we all know thirdgens stock are pretty tame power wise but handle great. So with the stock Formula I enjoy autocross and will probably continue that way for now.
My intention is to keep it as stock looking outside as possible. Under the hood I intend to keep the TPI and serp setup which I think gives the engine bay it's personality. But I like to tinker with the car and I am always looking for the next thing to do.
Prior to the start of the turbo project I had done just about every small and large tweak to the engine I could short of pulling the short block. Aluminum heads and ZZ4 cam are the main ones. That took about a year given the time and $. Tons of littler ones we all know about here like port the TPI, 1.6 rockers, airfoil, heater hose bypass, smog delete, headers, front end rebuild, walbro pump. Tuned Performance helped me with TunerPro, logging, and burned new chips. I splurged on a Big Brake upgrade for the fronts, that is awesome. In the rear as with the 89 Formulas I have the 3.27 gear with the aluminum caliper disc brakes. As an aside I tried the prop valve spring upgrade to increase rear breaking but that did not work for me as it didn't with some others.
I pondered the turbo decision and was stopped at the header design which dictates so much. I was really paralyzed there, reading about buying off the shelf and modding vs ordering custom, etc. Then Project put his logs up for sale and I realized even if that was not the ultimate for me it would at least get me started (thank you sir). So those are the basis of the build. I am using the 3582 .70 turbos off Ebay and a 31x12x4 IC with 3" in and out.
I don't really have an overall HP goal for the car. Obviously the TPI will limit me. Obviously putting huge power on a tired block will yield poor results to say the least. As of this writing June 2015 I intend on getting the turbos running with low boost and as the car is. Essentially all systems will need upgrading to use boost. They will be dealt with over the course of time and $ permitting.
I'm not really clear all the hurdles I'm going to have but that's why I mess with the car to learn and improve. For example I thought I would have IC fitment issues being a bottom feeder but that is bothering me less now that some other things.
I'm at the mock up stage at this moment. I have removed the compressor, condenser, evaporator and firewall stuff. I have removed the battery, fuel lines, and moved the cruise control. I have removed the compressor/tensioner bracket. I have loosened and/or removed some front end underneath panels to test fit the IC. I have removed the metal plate that surrounds hood latch and the cross braces in front of the rad. I have mocked up the logs and turbos to see where interference is.
For the Pax side since this is a serp car with the compressor on the PS and alt on the DS, the PS turbo sits in the cradle of the compressor bracket but not well enough to permit me from rotating it to where the compressor outlet needs to be to route air to the IC. Also I have to be careful with the compressor side because depending on how it's rotated the hood might not close! So I will cut the PS AC bracket some to allow proper rotation of the housing. Thanks for that tip Project89.
The DS turbo sits right next to the alternator and in front of the master cyl. The stock fuel lines are in the way and need to be rerouted. Also the 3" turbine outlet is startlingly close to the master cyl so I have to figure that one out.
For the IC I built a 3D cardboard mockup to see how it would fit before I bought it. This was my biggest concern considering the bottom feeder configuration of the firebird. After taking a couple lower and upper panels off I could see that the 31x12x4 IC would fit surprisingly well in front of the radiator. Since I pulled the AC the condenser was gone and there is a nice gap between the rad and the IC to prevent heat transfer between the two (thanks for that tip Orr). I would like to tip it forward to assist in the airflow but I'm not sure that will work out.
More to come including pics.
All the best, Tim
Last edited by TallTim; 05-30-2015 at 09:16 PM.
Reason: formatting
Good luck on your project. Turbos are fun but a pain to fit and fab. We did a junkyard low budget twin system on my dad's firebird that worked pretty good. Not the prettiest by any means but functioned great.
It was a gen 1 sbc 327 carb blow through system.. It was a tight fit, I wouldn't want to be the one to fab it around the TPI and all lol
Thanks for that idea. Though the paper is turned sideways instead of down like the pipe would go you can see the clearance problem. I'm hoping to not have to go hydroboost to move the mc back an inch or two. Maybe grinding off some of the mc...
Do I have to allow for the downpipe flange too? I'm having a hard time finding one on 10cm bolt spacing.
You can copy the url link, and then use image tags [img][/img] to post images. If that doesn't make sense, then quote my post and look at how it is written.
Can u cut and move the flange position on the manifold to shift that downpipe exit more towards engine? That is tight
it would be a pain in the *** orr, he has my old log headers , i suggested to him to use a pair of gt3582's instead gt30's i had originally used not relizing the hotisde of the gt35 moves the turbo twards the fender more
talltim, if u dont have the tools available to u to cut the turbo flange and move it u can always send the one header back to me and ill do it for you
i bet alls u would have to do is cut 3 sides around the flange and tip it on a bit of an angle twards the motor and then reweld it , have to be carefull about hood clearance though
Or manual brakes to move it all back some but i wouldnt like that idea
manual brakes if done right arent bad, tim i fogrot to answer ur other question dont worry aout the thickness of the downpipe flange as the tubing wil drop downinside it not sit flush against the outside of it
this should be the correct flange for those turbos
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-BOLT-3-ID-GT35-TURBO-TURBINE-DOWNPIPE-FLANGE-ADAPTER-/400659654211?hash=item5d492d2643&vxp=mtr
send fasteddi a pm he used a gt3582 on his v6 car and ask him were he got his flange
edit
i belive this flange has a wider bolt center
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Discharge-T4-Turbo-4-Bolts-Round-On-Center-Turbo-3-Opening-Downpipe-FLANGE-/321772994939?hash=item4aeb2a417b&vxp=mtr
Orr - Project did a fine job lining up the flange relative to the log, any relocation would seem to require real finesse since towards the head is pretty tight already.
What the log flange could use is a bit more tip of the flange towards the head (rotate the flange maybe 15 degrees inward relative to the log. That would not move the turbo inward just rotate it a bit. That would create more clearance but I'm not sure enough. Also a pretty delicate job I would defer to Project on.
Project thanks for the offer of the mod, do you think the tweaking would work? I'm open to sending it to you. I'm in no rush. I see those flanges yes I will get them.
Or if Orr has positive things to say about the hydroboost performance over the vac can I would pull the mc and vac can to proceed with the turbo fitment.
Or maybe both ...
OK i used the IMG /IMG lets see if that imbeds the pics.
Double doh Project I see you said what I was thinking about tipping the flange and I missed it. Let me try a mockup to see what kind of angle is needed and
see if the space is better.
let me know i also have a few things in mind that will help
#1 drillt he holes in the turbine inlet 1-2 sizes bigger this will alow ut to rotate the turbo slighlty on the log to get the downpipe pointed more into the center of the car this will give u a lil more clearance
Project sorry I'm not clear on the drilling idea. You mean bigger holes will allow the turbo to slide on the log towards center?
I think I need to do both things - rotate the turbo and hydroboost.
The PS turbo is a bit too high for the hood to close. I can adjust the compressor housing to fix that. The DS turbo can come up a bit via Projects rotate the turbine flange idea. 6mm up will be keep the turbo low but allow the dp to clear the main body of the mc as the whole turbo rolls towards the head.
However the dp will still not clear the side of the mc. So that's where the hb comes in. As you can see I need the hb to move the mc back ~1.5"
Orr can you do a quick measure when you get a moment - what is the distance from the fw to the front of your mc? You can see I'm at 16.5". I need it to be 15" or less.
I have another thread going about manual brakes and that's the direction I'm going. I've pulled the mc, vac and brake pedal to make space. But I've diverted to the IC mockup in the pics below. Now I am starting on the IC piping. I am going to teach myself flux core and use mild steel pipes for now.
Sorry i havent stopped in for abit. Let me catch up here and get u a measurement
Curious could you buy another t3/t4 flange whatever those are about 1/2" thick and have a shop angle mill it as a spacer to tilt turbo back towards valvecover to get downpipe more towards engine side of the master?
Sorry i havent stopped in for abit. Let me catch up here and get u a measurement
Curious could you buy another t3/t4 flange whatever those are about 1/2" thick and have a shop angle mill it as a spacer to tilt turbo back towards valvecover to get downpipe more towards engine side of the master?
Yes I could have that wedge done. However I just got the vband wastegates and the wg flange also tips towards the mc so I have to see if that's more fitment trouble in that area.
Project was kind enough to offer to rotate the flange I gotta see about the wg fitting first. Maybe do both flanges.
btw i have a stock engine i can use for mockup if u do need to ship the one header back to me for mods, hopefully we can avoid that though and save u the shipping costs
Here is a vid of the DS mock up with the turbo and the wg. I'm thinking the turbo needs to stay where it is, the wg tip towards the engine, and get those brake lines outa there!
I'm working on mocking up the the cold side IC plumbing up to the TB. I've got a 3" mandrel bent mild steel sampler off Ebay with a variety of straights and turns. With Project89's help I'm working on how the 3" IC pipe coming up will go over to the TB and not bump into the 4" intake of the DS turbo. The intake pipe will go to the fender well with a filter on the end and at some point in the future be blocked off to only pull fresh air from below. There is a flat plastic cover under the DS front bumper corner that could have a nice fresh air vent put in it. The vac can for the cruise control hides up under there and it was in the way for the IC cold pipe and the 3" hole I cut in the battery tray so for now it's out of there.
The 3" pipe will need to have the BOV before the MAF sensor before going into the TB.
I've got the new BOV (another thanks to Project) and of course the stock MAF on hand.
So the next steps are to get a chop saw to start cutting the pipes to length, get some 4" pipe to mock up with, practice my flux core skills, and get some silicone adapters and clamps to conect from the IC to the TB.
It's only about 95* in the garage with 95% humidity so I lose 5 lb in sweat just looking at it.
Will post more in a few days when I inch ahead, thanks for watching!
not bad ur getting it for sure , lil tip is the cleaner the tubing is the better it will weld with the flux core, also if ur using the wire that came witht he hf welder throw it away and buy a brand name roll of flux core wire it will make a big difference
even this would be better then what comes with the welder
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TWIN-PACK-Hobart-030-Gasless-Flux-Cored-Welding-Wire-2-lb-Spool-H222106-RTP-/261980117216?hash=item3cff3b58e0
stay away from the forney wire napa sells as well
also if ur using one of the hand held welding shields that came with the welder throw that away and get urself a cheap auto darkening helmet
Thanks for that wire suggestion, I heard that wire makes a big diff. Will run out what I have with practice and when I get to show time will get the Hobart.
I tried that anti-splatter spray which helps but keep getting bad cans the nozzle falls off and the can leaks.
And I got the auto-helmet works great.
My 10 yr old says hey let's watch Dad he's doing something dangerous in the garage...
Last edited by TallTim; 07-31-2015 at 12:38 PM.
Reason: s
Mocked up the IC to TPI 3" pipe. Found that using flat cardboard cutouts to plan pipe routing is working pretty well. The MAF is in place and the BOV will go below it tucked into the corner. The hood just closes with this setup. The silicone 90 DS inlet is a little bent but with some trimming it should be round enough for the inlet pipe to fit in.
Man what a slow poke I am. So I've finished mocking up the cold side. I've got to move that alum pipe closer to the back of the rad by reworking the fan brackets. I really don't like the pipe coming across behind the rad, but I figure going down and back up is too much turning for it? Next comes the hot side mock up.
Here's mine, I did have to remove the booster and mount master cylinder on the firewall. I'm building a race car. I'm gonna have fender well exhaust lol
I had to cut turbo headers down by 2.25" in order to clear strut towers and steering shaft. I have not been able to get back to finish it, I had to move at last minute. It's almost done.
I had this car almost done in three months from only a back half of the 91, it was never hit and only needed minor floor pan work.
I did however have to cut the good latch smaller in order to clear the intercooler, it's right below the metal place that attaches nose to core support.
I was basically trying to get the car all together then this winter pull it apart and install rolls cage and final paint. I have a race job offer about 8 state away. But I'm taking my 89 formula 350 there.
I had a hard time finding the 3582 exhaust flanges. The hole is 3" but the bolt spacing is 100mm (4"). I wanted mild steel but they are 304SS. Anyways they will be here over the weekend.
My HF flux core el cheapo seems to go in and out sometimes, the torch kicks on me at random messing up my newbie welds even more. The wire feed seems consistent. Maybe the xformer is going bad. [Edit] I learned later 1. make sure your mild steel is attracted to a magnet. If not it's aluminized steel or something else. 2. Make sure the surfaces to be welded are as close together and clean (wire brushed, no oil etc) as possible. 3. Use good flux core wire.
I've got the fan mounts off and will adapt the top triangular plastic arm to a thin metal bar. This fixes the problem in post #36 showing the cross pipe touching the wp pulley.
So my next focus is on the fuel lines, I think I will replace the stock rubber hoses with re-routed braided lines from the stock location on the frame rail to the stock location in front of the fuel rails. Can anyone guide me on the fittings I need?
For the dp's that astro van steering shaft upgrade might give me a bit more space on the ds to get the dp installed. I think I will go from a 3" dp to a bit bigger oval pipe to get down the side of the engine then back to round. I think I should put in one of those flex pipes after the two sides meet before heading back.
Last edited by TallTim; 02-25-2016 at 06:03 PM.
Reason: welding lessons
Starting to work on the DS hot side. I went with the Burkhardt master cyl and have pulled the prop valve out. I also have a astro steering shaft upgrade to put in which gives a bit more clearance for the DP since it does not have the plastic protector covers which would melt anyways with the DP right there. I was going to get some oval pipe for this side but my cardboard shipping tube mock-up tells me if I weld up just the angles I'll squeeze the 3" DP between the shaft and the log with a bit of room to spare.
Since the WG is right there I'm figuring if I'm going to position it to dump into the DP now or deal with that later.
Got 36" braided PTFE fuel lines and adapters Fragolo and Earls like Orr and Project suggest to put in.
Had to put in a metal flex pipe top rad hose and cut the inlet housing (a bit too long) to make the cold side pipes fit right.
Progress continues slow but surely.
Pondering the battery relocation kit now, suggestions welcome thanks.
05-30-2015, 09:16 PM
