Haven't been on in a while but I'm stumped here.

Background:

3.1 V6/3100 L82 hybrid V6 making about 225/235 with about 11.4:1 CR

Now that that's out of the way...

My starter has been driving me nuts for over a year now. Used to be this issue only occured during cranking fueling setup testing when the battery voltage would get too low.

I get a kickback on the starter for some reason. Already eaten 4 starter drives, one starter nose housing, blew out my original bolt holes (M10x1.25 now 1/2-13 after being unrepairable with threaded inserts because the inserts would physically PULL OUT of the engine block). Has also eaten the starter drive in a new aftermarket high-torque starter derived from a 400 CI truck.

Starters are new (stock monster and aftermarket high-torque). Battery was replaced a few months ago and has been kept fully charged with onboard maintainer. Connections clean and tight. So far this year I have spent almost $400 on this issue alone (2 starters at $110 a piece due to no warranty claim on my apparent screwup, $110 on a battery the store couldn't cover under warranty because it wasn't in the system even though it was literally a year and a half old, and 3 starter drives at $20 a piece).

IGNITION FIRING ORDER IS CORRECT. I don't have any issues with misfiring once engine actually starts. Right now, I swapped to Ford injectors (yellow 22#) and need to basically retune the base fueling but it has started ONCE since the swap. ONCE. Also no issues with 7x CKP gap to toothed wheel on damper anymore since I discovered bracket bolts loose.

Now I can't even hardly get the starter to engage the flywheel. Originally, when I bought the new stock-style starter, I put in ONE .060" shim and it was fine. After repairing the mount on the engine block and drilling the holes in the starter nose larger by 2.5mm, I can't get the gap right for the life of me. 2 .060 shims leaves starter pinion too far from flywheel and won't turn the engine while starter runs and runs. .060 and .040 pretty much same thing. .060 plus .020 plus .020 half shim not helping but starter does sort of turn the flywheel. Thinking of cutting a notch in T5 bellhousing so I can measure starter shaft to flywheel gap (should be 1/8" from shaft to flywheel teeth). All I'm getting right now is a loud grinding noise meaning either flywheel teeth (doubtful) or starter drive is getting chewed up.

Getting tired of spending $20 a pop on starter drives here. Only good thing I've gotten out of this is I can replace the SOB in 10 minutes once I get the starter out... And I have a $140 starter (some idiot in the packaging department at the factory put the wrong sticker on it and put it in the wrong box!) that is useless now because I don't even know where I can get a drive for that high-torque starter...

Rather not have to resolve this issue by replacing the engine block... Any car older than 1996 has been crushed by most yards around here and finding a V6 engine in decent condition is not easy nor is getting it home since I don't have a truck. Nor do I have a hoist and stand now since I sold them a year ago...

 

Dan,

I understand the frustration. I've had a couple engines with starter alignment and spacing issues. One was on a vehicle with a later 4L60 with the completely enclosed flywheel (no inspection cover), just like a T5 bell housing. Without being able to observe the alignment it is difficult to determine the exact problem. Very careful measurement of the pad height, distance to the ring gear, and starter pad angle might reveal something, but is probably not an easy task with the engine installed.

It could be pinion spacing, or it could be alignment in either axis. I presume the starter nose holes were enlarged to permit using larger bolts, but if that also allowed vertical or lateral movement the pinion could be trying to engage at an angle.

If you have a spare starter with a good pinion, it MIGHT be helpful to disassemble the starter so that nothing but the armature and solenoid linkage remains, mount it up, and manually operate the solenoid plunger so that you can feel the engagement of the pinion. You could also feel the lash when it is engaged by turning the armature. This would allow you to experiment with the shim height and test the alignment by hand as the pinion engages and armature is turned to check for lash.

Either way it wouldn't be my idea of fun.

 

I do have a spare nose from an old starter that also got eaten by this thing almost 2 years ago but the holes haven't been opened up to the new bolts yet. A couple weeks ago, i had made some adjustments down there and the starter was at it's usual tricks. The pinion was jammed. I had to pull up on the tail of the starter to get it to release. So i put another shim in, right? No go there either.
What i was thinking of doing was cutting an inspection hole of sorts into the bell as well as trying your suggestion of using the spare nose. That way i could physically measure and see what is going on down there. The hole wouldn't be more than maybe an inch or so square.

 

your positive its a kick back from the engine?

 

If someone could move the reply I made to this topic that somehow ended up in another one regarding a 3.1 no crank to here I'd really appreciate it...

Anyways, I'm pretty sure this is a kickback.

Crank, crank, crank, GRRRRIIIIND, crank, GRRRIIINND...

Now mostly just GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNDDDDDDDD....

Or BUZZZZZZZZZZZ (of starter spinning but crank not turning)...

:Edit: Seemed to me when batt voltage got low it would kick as though the DIS ICM wasn't timing the coils right resulting in a backfire or something. Right now it's doing it before engine even starts turning.

 

Read this bud.


http://www.aa1car.com/library/1999/cm119948.htm

 

I'll look in there when I yank the starter the next time. But every other time I've looked at my flywheel teeth it's looked fine to me. Which doesn't explain the chewed up starter drive clutches (last one I yanked was pretty notchy when it was tested) nor the nearly perfect teeth on the drives...

 

Loving this almost 60 degrees in January stuff... It's not 20 below like the last couple years here.

Well, not sure why but apparently the starter is out of alignment about 1/8" at the tail... I pried between it and my engine block and shoved a piece of wood in there for now and she's cranking. Not happily like when I put this starter in in the first place (probably cooked the thing when it failed to start exactly a year ago today), but it's cranking. I got it running for the second time since April and tuned out most of the bugs. Except for that blasted MSII IAC issue...

Now I need to figure out why my radiator fan seems to be jammed in the mounts again... I don't think anything happened to the radiator support but I'll look once the coolant temp gets under 200*...