haro_is_king

looking to get some feedback from some rides with a similar setup to mine as i am a little disappointed in the dyno results from my car. car was dyno'ed at lingenfelter and the results were max power 242.81 and max torque 292.01, seems low to me considering mods to the car. i am wondering if there is something i am overlooking or just not privy to, any thoughts would be welcome. thanks. i was thinking minimum would be 300 horse, i wondered if maybe the timing could be advanced, increasing power but i have not messed with it.
355ci
vortec heads
1.6 rockers w/z06 springs
scoggin dickey vortec base
slp runners
ported plenum
58mm throttle body
30#injectors
lt4 hot cam
shorty headers
eagle bottom end
flat top pistons
msd 6al ignition box
msd coil
cold air intake
burned chip by ed wright
2400 tci stall converter
borg warner 9 bolt w/3.27

AlkyIROC

Considering these engines didn't make a whole lot of power to begin with, that's still an increase.

If you're thinking of changing the timing, that should have been done on the dyno. If you want a good performance tune, buy some dyno time to see how the power changes when things like timing is changed. A single pull on a dyno is simply a base reference. Did the dyno pull include an O2 sensor in the tailpipe to see if it was running too rich/lean?

Based on your current performance results, your 30# injectors are too big. 24# will do just fine.

The LT4 cam with 1.6 rockers gives you 0.525" lift. Are you getting coil bind? Are the bottom of the retainers hitting the top of the valve stems?

The duration of that camshaft will like the base timing in the 10-12 degree range. You'll have to tune to find out what total timing the engine likes.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Whats the graph look like?

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

somethings definitely not right, the vortec/lt4 hot cam build is well known to be into the 300hp range.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Vortec base isnt great as is. A good deal of port work can open them up to support power. I'm not sure i like the z06 springs on the hotcam tho

RamIt

I run that setup, z06 springs, hot cam, 1.5 rockers, 1.75 installed height with vortec heads. Pulls well to the 6200 rev limiter. Carbed motor.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

It does seem a bit low but I'm betting the tune needs a once over and that top end needs some big port work to make it shine.

haro_is_king

1st, thanks for your time. four dyno pull were made, all with similar numbers and i do not believe an o2 sensor was in the tailpipe but i do believe it could be running rich/lean. i have not done any investigating with the springs/camshaft but that gives me some information into what could be a possible problem.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'm betting, losing the long runners would make AHELUVALOTTA difference.

Which of course is why the S-D/Eddie base just hasn't cut into the popularity of the Stealth Ram, Miniram, etc.

The long runners dictate the RPM range the motor will make power in. No getting around it. You run those runners, you're stuck in low RPMs. Since HP = torque × RPM × a constant, if you want HP, ya gotta increase, torque (which is only readily done by CID or forced induction) or RPM or both.

This is why I advise people NOT to attempt to mod TPI for big HP numbers.

OTOH, I'd be willing to bet your car is a ROCKET SHIP off the line, and up to 60 mph or so; kinda like my buds back in the day who used to put Porsche motors in their VW bugs. (yes, they bolt RIGHT UP, for some odd reason...) Can't BEGIN to tell you how many GTOs, Cobras, Chargers, etc. got humiliated stoplight-to-stoplight that way.

Hard to believe anybody would pay money for dyno runs without doing any tuning or even giving an indication of tuning; but I guess you just learned your lesson, and next time you'll make the experience worthwhile instead of standing behind your car enjoying the sound it makes instead of getting useful value out of it.

haro_is_king

going to try and embed it in a post momentarily.

haro_is_king

hahaha, yes i have been looking at the stealth ram/mini ram but im also thinking of ditching the vortec heads. luckily i did not pay for the dyno pulls but i agree with your points but i am also not a tuning master by any means but trying to learn. thanks

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Unless it was pig rich, airfuel wouldnt account for a whole lot of change at that level. I was wondering if springs were stable with that cam and not floating but seems like they could def work as noted above

Few deg timing either way may be few hp but not a huge jump.

It may just need base porting to really shine. I would have figured 275-280 whp

haro_is_king

haro_is_king

would that be in the ecm or would it be the chip itself? thanks

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The Vortec heads aren't the problem.

The LONG RUNNERS are.

Ditch what's hurting you, not what has potential to do better than what you're seeing.

Got a graph w engine RPM instead of wheel mph?

haro_is_king

unfortunately no, all four graphs are mph. ive thought about afr 195s and also fast burns mated with a stealth ram/mini ram.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cam and springs seem to be working. Its revving smooth and flat. Hard to tell for sure what rpm that is from wheel speed but looks smooth.

A stealth ram swap would get you 500-600 more rpm range easily and make 20-30 hp more easily

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Definitely something else going on there!!! He does not even have long tube runners, he has SLP runners. Those alone add a good bit of RPM. The edelbrock intake base is not great but I still put down nearly 370 RWHP out of a 383 with the untouched edelbrock base and it would PULL to 6,200 rpm with the siamesed SLP runners. I would start looking at the exhaust side or perhaps the tune. Any idea what the total timing advance is, what the curve looks like and what the air/fuel ratio looks like at WOT? Also is the cam degree'd? Could be a tooth off or something.

The engine in my signature pushed a 1983 G20 van to a 14.1 @ 101 in the 1/4 on a 2.2s 60' time, shifting at ~6,200 rpm.

haro_is_king

Yes, i was thinking if i was having any issue with the cam and springs that i would be having some major engine issues that would definitely be noticeable.

haro_is_king

[QUOTE=Fast355;6012329]Definitely something else going on there!!! He does not even have long tube runners, he has SLP runners. Those alone add a good bit of RPM. The edelbrock intake base is not great but I still put down nearly 370 RWHP out of a 383 with the untouched edelbrock base and it would PULL to 6,200 rpm with the siamesed SLP runners. I would start looking at the exhaust side or perhaps the tune. Any idea what the total timing advance is, what the curve looks like and what the air/fuel ratio looks like at WOT? Also is the cam degree'd? Could be a tooth off or something.

The engine in my signature pushed a 1983 G20 van to a 14.1 @ 101 in the 1/4 on a 2.2s 60' time, shifting at ~6,200

Sorry but i dont have the info on the timing or the curve. The mods were already done to the car when i bought it and after i received the dyno info i found it strange to be those numbers.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Im thinking the injectors may be a lil too much @ 30lb/hr. I like the heads you already have but ive heard the TPI intake they make for Vortec heads isn't the best in the world. You should have a very nice torquey engine build there once you get it tuned in though!

haro_is_king

[QUOTE=haro_is_king;6012378]
Can i get that info(air/fuel) through plugin to the ecm and a program? Or is that through the burned chip? Thanks

Vanilla Ice

[QUOTE=haro_is_king;6012404]You can get "current" air/fuel readings on the dyno or with a wideband and logging software.

The dyno operator should have your file saved (if you don't) and should be able to send you the afr from the dyno pulls.

To alter the air/fuel, you burn the prom.

haro_is_king

[QUOTE=Vanilla Ice;6012406]Gotcha'. Thanks for the info.

haro_is_king

found a graph with rpms

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yup, that's pretty much the long-runner torque curve... it's got the peak at 3600 RPM, the crater starting at 4800, basically just what would be expected, as far as the shape of the curve is concerned...

It oughtta make more torque that that though, across the board. Looks to be around 25 - 50 ft-lbs shy of where it should be from 3000 to 4500. Do you have a graph w the wideband O2 sensor curve shown on it? What kind of timing curve do you have in the chip? What happened from run to run as you adjusted the static timing to find the optimum?

AlkyIROC

So the majority of the power is under 4500 rpm. Typical street engine that would rarely get about 3500 rpm anyway.

Like I said, a dyno run is a baseline to start tuning from. Each dyno pull should have something changed. Could be total timing, jetting (injector swap or ECM programming), advance or retard the cam etc to see what happens to the curve. What you can change really depends on what you have that's easily adjustable. If you have enough time, even an intake manifold swap can be done. When tuning on a dyno, bring lots of tools and parts to try different things.

Advancing a cam, and many street grinds already have advance built into them, lowers the powerband for better low rpm street performance. Retarding a cam moves the powerband higher. It won't change the peak numbers. It just changes the rpm that the peak numbers reach.

Even dyno software for the computer will spit out a number that you'll probably never reach since the software assumes everything is perfect.

stephenscamaro

Makes me wonder what your compression ratio actually is~

Vanilla Ice

The powerband is too low. GET A PROPER TUNE. Until that is done, this thread is moot.

With your modlist a tune can easily be a 30whp problem.

haro_is_king

i contacted lingenfelter to see if they still had any info from when the car was ran on the dyno, as i did not own the car when it was dyno'ed. is there a way to pull that info off the chip? i had it burned by ed wright when i bought the car.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No, of course not. Gotta instrument the car, then capture the data.

That's what dyno runs are for. Listening to your car wind up is all real nice and all that, but the collection of a set of as full as possible of useful data, and taking advantage of the opportunity of the ability to make changes and see the results in real time, is the REAL value of buying dyno pulls. Standing there in awe and getting handed a sheet afterwards is kinda the mark of a n00b. You'll know better next time.

Visit the DIY PROM board and see what those guys do to extract data from the old Stone Age computers TPI came with. They're slow and limited, but still, there's an AMAZING amount of info you can derive from them. But in the end, the computer can't diagnose itself; that's what external instrumentation is for.

What about that wideband indication? What happened when you adjusted the static timing?

Vanilla Ice

Where are the dyno images coming from? Just pictures you have saved or are you opening the file and using the dyno viewing software?

If you're using the software you should be able to pull up the AFR graph.

mrestrictrplate

iTrader: (2)

From what i see most recommend a 52 mm throttle body unless the motor is radical. Am i correct?

haro_is_king

like i said i did not even own the car when it was dyno'ed this was all done before i got it, now that i have the dyno sheets the seller gave me im trying to figure out what the deal is.

haro_is_king

dyno sheets the seller of the car gave me, he also gave me a flash drive with a video of the car and the files of the runs but there isnt any info besides the dyno numbers.

haro_is_king

you are right that i haven't seen very many 58mm throttle bodies on similar builds, someone else commented that my injectors may be too big.

mrestrictrplate

iTrader: (2)

I think a big injector can be tuned to adjust and not hurt hp.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I'm coming to the party late but I'm with Sofa and Alky on this- It is hard to make TPI put down lots of horsepower and you'll put in more money to make less power than if you had just gone with a short runner intake setup. I had a 355 that I built properly, I had that LT4 hot cam and a single plane efi intake with trick flow heads and hookers long tubes blah blah and with using a conservative street tune I made I put down 325 horsepower on a mustang dyno. Probably could have done 350hp if I had upped the timing and played with fueling up top. So thats what you can expect too-If you swap out that restrictive intake. The vortec heads aren't bad, I'm betting if you changed the intake to a stealth ram you could instantly do 300 hp because it would let it breath where it should be making peak power. The graph you showed is a typical TPI looking graph, it appears that it is coming down in power when the pull was halted but that cam should continue on to make peak power at 5500-6000 rpm, not 4500. Changing this part to that part or upping the timing may get you 20 hp more.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

IMO you already have about every "upgrade" you can do to TPI. You're kind of at a crossroads here: either learn and equip yourself to tune and optimize what you've got, or $$$start over$$$.

I'd suggest at least TRYING the former.

"Learn and equip yourself to tune" DOES NOT mean "buy a chip" from whomever. It means, acquire the equipment to burn your own chips, and learn how to adjust the programming to make YOUR engine in YOUR car do what YOU want it to. An alternative would be a replacement ECM of some sort, be it aftermarket or OEM (a 0411 for example is HIGHLY flexible and could almost certainly be adapted to TPI and made to run circles around the original thing from the Stone Age).

I'd certainly start there if I were in your place. Make what you've got do the best it can, before piddling around with more parts. Nothing you have listed up there sticks out as glaringly obviously "wrong", except possibly the injectors, which are just YUUUUUUUUUUUJJJJJE for the rest of what you've got. I'd start over with a freshly refurbed set of Frod light-blue Bosch III 24-lb ones as you begin tuning: injectors on the small-ish side with higher fuel pressure ALWAYS work better than too-large ones and low fuel pressure. Of course if it doesn't already have an AFPR, you'll need one of those at the same time.

Vanilla Ice

Post the file please.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

How exactly are you trying to find out what the deal is? Your engine should be pulling much higher than that, yet it is falling off below 5000-RPM, that should immediately tell you that whoever burned the chip, if in fact a chip was even burned, maintained an L98 SA Main Table. You are running a cam and intake designed to pull much higher, but the timing is holding you back. You are mismatched. It is in your tune. Vanilla Ice has it right, this is why he wants to see the tuning files. Your torque reveals what your horsepower should really be. Had the engine pulled where it was supposed to pull you would have seen closer to 325/350-RWHP, but your timing table is hindering you. Get a new chip.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

He would need 80 more horsepower to make it to 325 and 110 more ponies to make it to 350 horsepower. He is not going to gain 80 horsepower (if not 110 horsepower to make it to 350) from adjusting the timing.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Seriously? Putting aside the fact that he is running the wrong spark table, with his VE table more than likely being off as well, he is making close to 300 pound feet of torque to the wheels before even reaching 4000-RPM when it begins to drop. Horsepower never even "crosses" torque at the 5252 mark, and although there is no reason for me to point out why that should be occurring in the first place, let us assume his engine should be making 300 pound feet of torque to the wheels at 5252-RPM. At 3700-RPM he is making 292 pound feet of torque to the wheels, which is calculated at 206-RWHP. At 5252-RPM, 292 pound feet of torque to the wheels equals 292-RWHP. Now, if we take into consideration that his torque DROPS before 4000-RPM, and horsepower never "crosses" torque at the 5252 mark, then we can immediately conclude that something is holding the engine back from power. You're basing his numbers on an engine that is "peaking" at 243-RWHP at 4600-RPM with an engine that is being held back from revving. There is no such thing as a "torque" engine, it just means it's not being allowed to breathe.

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

I can only give advice as to what I found out by doing one thing at a time. Your engine combo is so overloaded, you cannot go by what helped or hindered your performance. One thing I found out was that the STOCK throttle body performed better on the 1/4 mile than the larger (next step up). It lost almost 2 tenths. Do you have an Air Foil for that either? As one member stated, the Siamesed Intake Runners developed by SLP really made a difference in the RPM, where as the stock ran out of steam around 4,600 rpm and now mine pulls right up to red line. You also need to pull your plugs and see how much soot is on them. If your going to use a dyno pull, you'll need to spend some $$$$ in retesting. Some mods will feel really good on the street, but 1/4 times will tell a different story. Just my

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

Stock was 9.5 and recommended Premium Fuel.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Definitely agree with you here. But looking at the graph that was posted we see, just like most 355's w/LT4 Hot Cam, torque will slowly rise to approximately 300 pound feet to the wheels by 3500-RPM, and normally while slightly increasing up until 5252-RPM, when it then begins to drop. Horsepower of course crosses its' path at 5252-RPM, and from here we determine how high we want to spin the engine, which is usually close to 6000-RPM with this camshaft. His torque however begins to substantially drop before 4000-RPM is even achieved, and this is what needs to be addressed, because horsepower is torque, and it effected his horsepower after 3700-RPM. If torque held and increased like it should have up until 5252-RPM, he more than likely would have made more that 292 pound feet of torque to the wheels at 5252-RPM, which would have equaled his RWHP. I will go out on a limb and say he should have seen 315 pound feet of torque at 5252-RPM, which would have equaled his RWHP at that same RPM. But now spin it to 6000-RPM, the way it should have been, and it should have seen 325-RWHP...

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I'm not going to spend the time arguing you about what theoretical power this certain TPI setup should make. Topics like this have been hashed to death in many threads and usually end with the owner switching to an LS, power adder or short runner intake.

Vanilla Ice

Here's a funny thought. 99% of thirdgeners refuse or are afraid to tune.
All thirdgeners that swap, either use stock configuration requiring no tune to achieve power goals or are forced to tune and do so.

What's the missing link in the TPI world?

OP DOES NOT have a dyno that shows peak hp.
This dyno is barely better than a stock TPI.

Most common issue in low power is bad fueling and low timing or too high timing.

Get a tune. Stop throwing money at more parts. Rookie mistake number one.


OP WHERE IS THE DYNO FILE?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I see shorty headers also but no mention of anything else. Even the stock 350 exhaust is TERRIBLE on these cars and the exhaust really needs to be opened up.

My L31 350 express van breathing through 1 3/4" primary shorties, factory 3" dual cats and factory intake manifold with only a production LT4 cam and 1.6:1 rockers put down over 280 RWHP on a Mustang Dyno. In my personal opinon the truck manifold is worse than a long tube runner TPI.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

He's probably not going to be able to come up with much more info from the dyno... he already told us it was done before he got the car. At this point he needs to work with what info he has, or go get some more. (which just running it on the dyno again is probably largely a waste of time)

So true... yet so universal. Go visit forums that cater to trucks, muscle cars, antique cars, you name it, you get the same thing. "I've got a {fill in the blank carb brand} what size jets should I put in?" "What should my ignition timing be?" and the like. Ya gotta ask THE ENGINE questions like that, not THE INTERNET!!!! The engine will tell you in unmistakable terms when you make a change, whether you went the right way or not: it MAKES MORE POWER or otherwise RUNS BETTER. The procedure is, make a change, measure the OUTPUT (power, torque, mileage, etc.), make another change, measure output, .... until EVERY further change you make, in EITHER direction, makes it WORSE. Once you get to that point, it's as good as it can possibly get. THEN AND ONLY THEN, record the input measurements (timing, mixture, etc.) so that in the event of future repairs or whatever, you can put the inputs BACK. It's so eeeeeeeezy, so simple, so obvious, it hurts to even try to imagine how people can ignore such a basic fact. But yet they do.

Humans. So emotional, illogical and irrational.