1984 5.0 carb
so my oil is milky but no loss of antifreeze and no smoke ? It rained a lot and left car out side I never have left outside. opened hood notice water on air cleaner top can water go though there and make oil milky ? Or is it blown gasket ?

 

If a motor is started shortly and moved from a cold to hot environment, it can cause that so yes, if rain gets in somewhere it defiantly can do that if it runs into a breather... not so much an air cleaner though.

I'd change the oil and see if it comes back. If it comes back it is rather a crack in the block/heads/intake, intake gaskets or head gaskets.

 

Would it turn on engine light ? dont have it on yet. Thank you for the help it is appreciated.

 

LOTS of Water in oil is catastrophic, it needs to be removed right away and do not run the engine until you do.

Do an oil change, ASAP. Then make sure the oil is looking good before you start the engine. Then you can start, run a few seconds, then shut it off and check the oil again. If it gets milky/water right away after a couple seconds then chances are it needs to be taken apart and cleaned/fixed. Once you get that milk shake stuff all over the rocker arms, in the oil galleys, all over the crankshaft and so forth it can be very difficult to clean out without dissembling the engine, and it poses an enormous risk to the rotating assembly, which is trying to suck up clean oil, and water does not lubricate parts very well, it can also clog small orifices. If you pull a valve cover and see milkshake everywhere that is pretty much it. If the problem was temporary you can try to nurse it back by doing lots of oil flushing and wiping anything you can get your paper towels on. But I would still remove at least the oil pan and wipe it out, brake cleaner from underneath the rotating assembly where it has milkshake.

 

so i took plug and oil filter out drained old milky oil then cleaned out old filter with clean oil put back everything ran with clean oil then drained again made sure clean oil was coming out of drain then used new filter and new oil ran fine drove for half an hour no loss of antifreeze no white smoke and no over heating ? checked oil and still looks new ? waiting for tomorrow and hopefully still clean can or can it still be head gasket ? This blows just bought the car a couple a months ago barely started driving had to redo all brakes including steel break lines.

 

A non-functioning PCV system can cause moisture accumulation in the oil.

 

I think your sig is supposed to say "as simple as necessary ..."

 

Checked dip stick this morning looks fresh ? does anyone if I am in the clear ? will replace pcv valve today. Thank you

 

might just pop a valve cover to see if there is milkshake in there. When the engine warms up does it smoke white smoke through the valve cover hole anywhere? You can temporarily remove the oil cap to see if the hot engine is smoking white color. White = water.

You want a fully warm engine, open the oil cap hole, and nothing but oil and air comes out. No white fumes.

Sometimes water will find a way inside an engine while it is off. This water will collect in the bottom of the oil pan, it will sit below the oil and come out first when you pull the plug. That is not a terrible situation, drain the water and good to go.

The problem is when you RUN an engine with water in the oil like that, it will whip the water and oil together into milkshake mess like I previously described. THAT is what you are trying to avoid.

 

Sounds fine to me. It doesn't take a huge amount of moisture to cause that milky appearance. Like I previously said, how much moisture could possibly generate from starting a cold car in 25 degree weather, driving it into a heated garage and shutting it off?

 

normally avehicle that gets used everyday gets warmed to operating temp which is around 212*F engine oil, that can take 30 minutes some cars, even longer, cars which do not run long enough to routinely hit the warmup temp are often associated with increased engine wear and tear, and not necessarily because of the additional water content. Some do not even approach this number until they have been running hard for a while. This high oil temp is what keeps oil dry. More dry than it would have been otherwise. This is a maintenance feature, it ties to the quality of oil per time. Also consider running engines/turbos tend to "eat" (MMmmmm tasty fresh synthetic chains to bend and break facilitating reactions which interrupt carbon chains I suspect) the quality of their oil also, which to me, looks like it is just as much a consideration when considering whether to change engine oil, since without a lab result and still even with a lab result they might be some question, there is nothing in the color or smell that truly indicates that it requires changing even if a change were obvious like when oil is replaced with fuel and has a strong fuel smell, that scares me into changing it. But without knowing really what the limit for dissolved light hydrocarbon chains and measuring that concentration in my oil, it may have been a waste of good engine oil.

 

Thanks for all your posts I ran yesterday for half an hour after changing pcv valve and oil looked new will continue to monitor.

 

still worried about my kid

 

I surely wouldn't park it there under that roof overhang.

 

It's one of the variations you see around, of a quote often attributed to Einstein but no one has ever found where he actually wrote it. (might have said it in a lecture or something...)

Nietzsche said something like it as well.

It's a "logical razor", much like the quote in my signature. It tells you to strip away everything unnecessary from your proposed "explanation" for an observation you make, until everything left in it is necessary, but there are aslo no necessary parts left missing.

 

ok bo milky oil since i changed bought a cover and replace pcv valve, what shoulde be my next steps ? valve cover gaskets ?

 

If you're saying your oil is turning milky again, then it's because water is getting in it.

Valve covers aren't related to water. Changing em won't help. NOTE: not saying "don't change em", "you don't need em", "they're good", or anything of the kind; only, they CANNOT cause milky oil and therefore changing em isn't going to fix that. They don't satisfy Occam's Razor, in my signature, since they DON'T fit ALL the facts at hand. Or really, ANY of them, for that matter.

More likely, intake gaskets.

 

No more milky oil I bought cover for it this weekend. What I am trying to figure out if it was the rain from where would it seep in from in the engine ? or what to start replace first ?

 

It could be getting in anywhere... I'd think if it was getting through your valve cover gaskets, that area would be saturated with oil (if water can get in, oil can push out just as easily).

It could be one of many places... PCV, valve cover gaskets, breather, the gasket were the distributor meets the intake manifold, etc. If enough water filled your manifold it would run down the intake runners and work it's way into the cylinders even.

 

i can say that living in a very humid area, (florida here), and not starting the car often, condensation can form on the inside of the valvecovers and make the oil a little milky looking. warm the engine up and the tiny amount of condensation goes away. just first hand experience. ive seen lots of those cheap chrome steel valvecovers rust from the inside out.

 

it has the original valve cover so gonna start with all the gaskets i can handle will start with valve covers I guess ? her eis a picture notice how its rusty on top of the air filter cover I notice water there not sure if its condensation or what ?

 

On a dry hot day, shut the hood and use a hose to simulate rain for a few minutes. Then open the hood and look for signs of water.

Do whatever it takes to seal it up... water can kill an engine fast once it gets to the oil/lubricated surfaces.

 

Milky oil is when you dont drive the car long enough or enough at all. Does it sit alot? Change the oil and drive it more.

 

I've had 30-40 different kinds of engines sit on a shelf for 15 years without collecting any water. This is not a realistic problem for a typical engine, that it will magically collect water from sitting. It is true that some water molecules will diffuse into the crankcase/into oil, but not to the extent you are implying. Unless the motor is physically sitting open, like has its valve covers off and sits outdoors, it should not collect appreciable water. A common mistake is to remove the PCV system and use an atmospheric crankcase ventillation; this is not an OEM design, this is not acceptable and may contribute the way you describe to poor oil conditions. A proper PCV only has one orifice the leads from the crankcase to the atmosphere and there is usually a long tube and restrictor involved.

 

The rust on top of the air cleaner is from the gasket leaking around the hood air intake casting. After 30 years mine was shot. No new gasket available, so I got some rubber sealant for a camper shell. It is about 1/16" thick and self-adhesive on one side. Cut four pieces and placed it on the hood inset for the air inlet. Trimmed it to width and made sure the corners sealed. Haven't had anymore water or rust on my air cleaner.

 

Pcv has nothing to do with it. As is motors sitting on shelfs for 20 years. Milky oil is caused by a couple of things. Main one is not driving the car long enough to burn off condensation from operation, esp in cold climates. Cold start 1/2-1 mile trip, shut off as an example. Never said anything in my post about sitting, so I dont know where that came from.Two, which wasnt mentioned is a blown head gasket.

 

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...k-carnage.html

You do not understand what I am saying I guess, I will be more specific. See the link above for proof. A PCV consists of many LINES, made of RUBBER. If you remove or damage those lines, you might provide an entry point into the engine for water. i.e. the tube that runs from the valve cover to the intake manifold from the factory is water-proof, until somebody plays with it, removes it, damages it, or fails to maintain it. THEN, water can get into the engine easily through the valve cover more easily. I was not suggesting a PCV system on a running engine had anything to do with water vaporization, as the vacuum signal provided by a PCV system is insignificant with respect to vapor pressure (partial pressure coefficients are not affected enough to consider) The op is clearly having an issue with rain water getting into the engine, and PCV presents one of a couple possible entry points into the crank case, this is a valid point to consider.


Hmm, Proof reading is your friend

 

Maybe its off topic but on my Chrysler 300M I got a rod knock (famous on the 3.5 v6) thanks to a PCV valve.It made oil sludge really fast and @150,000 miles after a small overheat (nothing major) it start knocking.It destroyed the rod bearings but the rest of the engine was fine ,even piston rings.Yes its not the same car ,but its a similar engine .

Usually if they analyze the oil (there are places where you can do that after you do a oil change) they will see if it has antifreeze in it .I wrote that story to say that its not always the head gasket or water pump that leaks inside the crank case.Yes a PCV valve will cause oil sludge but I'm thinking in really bad scenario maybe some water drops/vapor can leak inside.

I don't get something thou...how come on some engines this happens and on my 3rd gen the engine has no problems.It will probably die from wearing in time but it has no problems with bearings ,oil pressure or anything like that.There must be a engineering secret somewhere.

 

VERY good topic to discuss, although this probably isn't a good thread for it.

The short answer: cleanliness is king.

motor oil acts also as a detergent and absorbs carbon byproduct fragments of combustion (anything that passes the rings, "blow by" is mostly partially burnt carbon fragments of combustion) and this material is mostly removed with each oil change, although over the life of an engine it will still accumulate gradually in the less accessible recess' of an engine's insides. If you take the valve cover off an engine which has seen 150k for example, you will find little dark spots, places where oil washing was minimal and "sludge" or "gunk" was allowed to accumulate. This would be everywhere if not for oil changes.

The PCV system is responsible for the same behavior: removing byproduct of combustion from the crank case. It does this AFTER blow-by and BEFORE absorption by engine oil. For example, while you cruise, the PCV valve is open (check valve 1-way to manifold from crankcase). This allows the intake manifold to re-absorb those partially combusted by-products before they get into the engine oil (many still do of course). This helps keep engine oil cleaner because we are constantly "vacuuming" the crank case with the PCV system while driving. This is considered good for engine longevity since it keeps "sludge" from building up in the oil as quickly (it will still build up, but the more we suck up into the manifold the less is in engine oil). You need to perform routine maint. (CHANGE the pcv valve, and ALL pcv lines, clean the manifold) because gradually they become clogged, coated, brittle, or broken over use/time. A healthy engine has a very clean PCV system, it is paramount to cleanliness, perhaps the second most important thing on an engine besides the oil filtration system/lubricative orifices.

What else is in blow-by? Alot of us do not realize what we are burning in the combustion chamber. For example, typical pollen and fungal spores are found everywhere in the world, present in all of our air. Each spore contains a myriad of carbon-compound (same carbon found in gasoline, carbon is carbon) and metallic co-factors (metals are commonly found in biologically active material) and provide a veritable soup of possible reaction pathways (when we add heat and pressure, a variety of reactions are possible with carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, metals, etc... all found in living organisms). The result is also "gunk/sludge" as you can imagine, a difficult substance to dissolve and remove is formed and will stick to the surfaces of an engines internals, and build up over time. This is another aspect of cleanliness- realize that whatever the air filter is sucking up, is going to wind up partially in the oil, partially coating your exhaust system, coating the piston/cylinder, and so forth. Therefore it is paramount that our AIR FILTER systems be up to the challenge of preventing these sticky substances from entering the engine, it is perhaps the most overlooked aspect of street cars/daily drivers, the air filtration system. The ideal filter is a dry, OEM style paper unit or similar. Street cars are built around this idea: filtration, cleanliness, and the filters, pcv system, and user maintenance (take everything off once in a while and clean it out manually if you have to).

I can keep going but it turns into a book. Discussion of PCV and engine oil / crankcase apparatus is indeed tied to engine longevity, AND performance. Many high HP applications call for belt-driven vacuum pumps (eliminating the traditional PCV system in favor of higher vacuum, more well sealed up engines) for a performance boost of perhaps 80-100 horsepower on those applications (big block blower V8 engines).

 

I understand exactly what you are trying to say. Your point about water getting into lines makes no sense. You could remove a pcv line. Tell me, how could water get through the hood and into the line? Poster said he left it outside in the rain. Maybe you forgot, most cars have hoods. And unless you go through wheel well deep water,no water is getting to the top of the motor. Pcv isnt complicated. Two lines at most, easy to check. I asked if the car is driven very short unfrequent distances. We have not got a response from that. Condensation is a product of combustion. Proper operating temp and time driven helps eliminate this. Milky residue is from two things. Water or coolent getting into oil, ie blown headgasket. But according to you a pcv hose left off or broken where water somehow enters that hose, which is next to impossible with the hood closed is your answer. Ok... Very short trips, and infrequent ie 1/2 mile down the road and then shut off is a valid scenerio. Doesnt give the engine enough time to heat up. To get oil up to operating temp.
Really to be honest you dont have to give a long winded snarky response. Sorry your panties are in a bunch over what you think is the correct answer. Breathers on valve covers throw your guess right out the window. According to you water should be getting in there like gangbusters.
If your pcv system is that clogged that you have to dissasemble the entire system to clean it you have more pressing issues with the motor at hand than milky oil residue. Ive only seen this on a handful of cars,trucks. Very high mileage vehicles.And those vehicles were not driven much and when they were it was for 10min or less. Maybe they were driven years like this. As it wont get milky overnight or over a month. Its not common at all by any stretch, as most drive their cars much more than this.

 

Oh, sorry i thought it was obvious. Did you see the picture he posted? Clearly there is an enormous mark of rust on the air cleaner, indicating to me that indeed, water is passing his hood somehow. I thought it was plain and obvious, since upon his oil change, the symptoms revised (no blown HG, no other constant source, engine oil condition went back to normal). If there were a leak anywhere in a line or gasket, water can find it's way to engine oil, and since most of those lines are PCV related (i.e. the vacuum lines, having vacuum, would have sucked the water into the combustion chamber, it would not enter the engine oil from this point) so the only logical entry point to the crankcase is the holes in the valve cover (i.e. PCV) or if there is another point of entry that used to be PCV related (thus my comment about user modifying their pcv systems) since pcv is the only non-high vacuum suction tract connected to engine oil.

This is also why I suggested he spray water from a hose, on a dry hot day, to see where the water is getting in. It all ties together, not trying to complicate it, seems simple.

 

OK before I had only been turning car on for 10-15 minutes I was replacing brake lines. Now I have been driving or leaving on for 30+ minutes and the weather is 80-90 degrees. I also purchased a cover. So far no milky oil. Since this happened i have :
1. Changed oil (ran a couple of clean quarts thru to clean it out first)
2. Bought cover
3. Changed PCV valve
4. when I turn on or drive donit for 30 min plus.

What I am planning to do:

1. Valve Gaskets ( was planning to do anyways) btw should I replace covers and if yes which ones.
2. Try and fix the Hood intake thing like suggested.
3. Run hose to mimic rain and check everything.

Let me know your thoughts and suggestions it is appreciated. Thank you(If you Live in shitcago you can come over for a few beers as reward )

 

Well I had to look again. Yes there is rust on the air cleaner. Maybe the hoods popped or the rubber seal is gone on the hood.

 

So your saying you have only been driving 10-15min at a time. How often a week?

 

well I was turning on for 10-15 minutes it was not drivable before brake lines were bad.

 

How many days, weeks, or months have you been doing this? Operating temp fully warmed?

 

I would say that that was the cause of it. My old beater k1500 does that during deer season. I take it on short trips frequently and it never fully heats up. It doesn't take long and you can pull the dipstick out and the top of it will be milky looking. Worried me the first time until I figured out what it was. Since then I always make sure that every couple of days when I get back to the house I either drive it further or let it idle and get up to temp.

I wouldn't worry anymore about it. Just drive it

 

you have a pic ?

 

about 2 months

 

Let me give u the skinny on the car I purchased this car in early march it had been garages kept but had not been turned on in 5 years(oil was Clean when i bought it). Towed to my house changed all fluids, took old gas out etc new battery and turned on. 3 month later i finally got it street worthy. during those 3 months i only turned on for 10-15 minutes then i left outside it rained and water turned milky. antifreeze looks the clean and still full does not over heat.