Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Been working on this car for 2.5 years.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memb...oming-aka.html

I've had Geico full coverage because I wasn't driving it and I only had it in case a ladder or shelf fell on it. I had every intention of switching to Hagerty or the like when I started driving it, because nothing really bad would happen to it while sitting in the garage.

Welding caused an interior fire that claimed a good bit of interior damage. I've had several conversations with Geico, submitted all the pictures along with an itemized list of every part that needs to be replaced. I've had the meeting with the adjuster. Right now I have them doing an inquiry into what their company believes a 1991 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 in excellent condition would be because their system believes that an average condition is only worth ~$3500. They want to total the car out and hand me a salvage title.

The insurance adjuster tells me they use CCC1 as an evaluation tool which upon a small amount of research shows that it is a tool only available to insurance companies and there are several lawsuits against it for generating inexcusably low vehicle values. Going to the normal collector car value websites, looking at asking prices and talking with members that have sold these cars reveals that these cars in excellent condition are worth $9-11K.

So this is where I am at. I'm asking if any members here have any advice on how to deal with this going forward. I have a sinking suspicion that this will end up with me having to accept a check of 70% of what they consider the vehicle value (in order to keep it from having a salvage title) and me fixing this at a loss. I really don't want that. So any helpful advice going forward would be appreciated.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Geico sucks for a few reasons.

They lowballed me horribly when their insured was at fault. I am sorry they are doing the same to you as the insured.

You can play the game of "here are 10 examples of cars selling for X" and they will still just rub their low ball game without refuting a damn thing successfully.

One angle is multiple estimates and documentation X 50. Especially on the custom work. You have done.

You still up north?

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

When my 87 got totaled in 2002 from a rear end hit my insurance company tried to only give me $2500.. I told them the car had a $7000 paint job, engine and trans receipts, and was a show car. I was a detailer and the car looked like a brand new showroom 87.. Interior was pretty neat mint for 100k Miles..

An adjuster came out and looked at the car (front being still mint) engine was detailed and perfect. He looked through a few receipts and said it was a shame what happened to this car.. it was a G92 5speed TPI TTop car too..

They ended up giving me $8000..

And back in 2002 these cars were worth less than now..

Fight it and have proof of why it’s worth more..

Pro

You don't even need to go to collector car websites for evaluation. Just go to Ebay lol. When the insurance company tried to put a value on my old car, they low balled it, and I sent them 3 examples of ACTUAL values of the car, using advertisements from dealerships (2 still for sale, 1 that had been sold already).

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

And what was your outcome? What was your car your talking about?

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Yeah, I'm still up North from you.
I have begun playing the game of examples. I'm putting together another spreadsheet of what people are selling these cars in good shape for. I truly cannot find a Z28 Camaro Convertible in decent shape for less than 6K. Funny (or is it ridiculous?) thing is that if they just believed that the car was only worth 6K I wouldn't even be having this argument with them of how much they will pay and totaling out a car.

rudolphschenker

I know this is not necessarily helpful at this point, but I always have collector insurance with an agreed value, even before I start project cars. I hope you can get a decent settlement.

Vader

It's about the same story with me. I have an agreed value statement with my insurer for a minimum replacement/repair threshold. All I needed to do was produce evidence of it being a reasonable value (eBay, etc.) and allow them to inspect the vehicle. My agent and claims office wanted to take it for a ride AFTER agreeing about its condition.

Further, this value should be reviewed every few years to be sure it is sufficient. Labor and parts costs are not going down.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I have another insurance provider lined up and an agreed upon policy waiting as soon as this current situation is put to bed. The car wasn't being driven so I viewed it as being out any large danger.

From Auto-trader I pulled 30 examples of what an excellent condition thirdgen with medium to high miles list for. I have half dozen examples more from this website and another half dozen from the Craigslist ads. Average prices for excellent condition are ~9-14K. The cars below 4K are all either cars that need finished or need rebuilt.

Pro

It wasnt a camaro, it was a mazda.
They knew it was 100% the other guys fault. But they were sneaky, and when they agreed to the amount I wanted to value the car, they said they would only take a certain amount of responsibility for it.
For example, initially, they were just going to give me a check for 4k, the value of the car before it was wrecked. and then i sign the title over to them and they do whatever they want with the car. But I said no, look at all of these cars, identical to mine, that were sold in the 6k-8k range. So they said "ok, we will value your car before the wreck at 6500, but will only take 80% responsibility and you will get a salvage title and keep the car. The salvage value of the car is $500, so 6500-500 means the value of the car went down 6k because of the wreck. We will send you a check for 4800."
So my little negotiation got me an extra 800 on the check that they sent, but now I have to go pay for a salvage title, pay for tow fees, and all the other texas BS required for owning a messed up car, a car thats only worth $500. And its only a $500 mazda, not a $500 Ferrari. And i dont want a junker sitting in my driveway, especially when it doesnt roll. So i just left it at the tow yard and they ended up auctioning it off and who knows where it is now.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Hey, Tibo. I went through this learning curve a few months ago when my car was rear-ended. It was also valued at $3,000 with repair estimates being more than that.

When all is said and done you will need two things,

1. Receipts that prove you have money in the car. The sum of receipts will be added to the Blue Book value. Collect all your receipts, PayPal statements, whatever you can find to prove you spent money on the car. Bolts, fuel fittings, big ticket items, anything.....

2. Pictures of the car to show it really does have all those parts and prove it was in good condition.

Comparables won't get you anywhere. You need the two items above. And you only need enough to justify repairs.

In the future you (and I) can avoid all this hassle by having the car appraised. An insurance company would accept a certified appraisal. I tried to have an appraisal done on my car after the accident because the value would have been high enough even with the rear ending damage. But the appraisers will not do an appraisal while an insurance claim is open.

Trust me, items 1 and 2 above are what you need. The insurance will only work with you so long, so don't wear out your welcome pursuing an avenue that won't work.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

That's an area I have a problem in. Some parts like the engine and suspension components I've owned for several years and the receipts are long gone. Some parts like door panels and subframe connectors I made completely from scratch. Some parts like the T56 were craigslist cash transactions. I do think it's a good idea and a possible solution but the only way I see of that idea holding any hope for me would be to take pictures of parts and then list what that part cost. However, further complicating that is Geico has said they only pay what a stock vehicle is worth and they wouldn't make up the difference if an aftermarket part cost more.

I have all the pictures I've posted in my build thread and more, so that is safely covered.

It may not but I have to try that route too. Adjuster said if I was finding wide discrepancies between their price and my price I could submit my examples and they would look at them.

I had planned on having it appraised when I put it on collector insurance and I had a few more things done. Wish I had done that appraisal already. Who did yours? was it an insurance company? private service? Or one of these places where you send them dozens of pictures and write out pages of details and they send you a certificate with an amount on it?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I haven't done an appraisal yet. I just got my car back from the body shop a couple days ago and I am still fixing s*** from the accident. You'll have to call around and network to find an appraiser. Usually they own a classic car dealership.

brian p

Well that all sucks but one more sobering thought. Your insurance premiums are likely to increase a good bit. I have Hagerty collector insurance on my car, in Canada, but I'm pretty sure insurance companies are the same (as in working for their own benefit) regardless of whether they're here or the US. You were paying premiums with Geico but likely based on their predetermined value (but not disclosed to you) of 3-5K. You've got a nice car (saw the thread) so my guess is the appraiser will come out and say anywhere from 10-20+K depending on mods. So the insurance company charges premiums based on that dollar value. My OK looking '86 has an appraised value of 12,500, I'd be lucky to get 5 or 6k for it, but I pay premiums on the whole shot. Best of luck with them, hope it works out.

Vader

I have State Farm, and agreed on a $15K replacement/repair value. My annual premiums on that are under $400, but it is licensed "antique" so that gets me a break. It also means I cannot drive it from November to April, but I don't want to either. That's salt season around here, and I've not gone over 30 years without rust only to start now. However, while it is off the road it still carries full comprehensive coverage for anything but a driving collision which might be my fault, which also isn't going to happen November to April while she sits in a heated garage.

Ghettobird52

Curious as someone who welded "here and there" in the past, thought about buying a setup recently but this always scares me.

how did the fire happen?

sonjaab

Once your insurance company settles on a price to pay you they
will imm. post that to your CLUE report and your new insurance
company will adjust your rates (read that HIGHER) than the quote
they gave you before this claim was listed on your CLUE report.

ALL insurance companies use a CLUE AND credit report to figure
your rates.
CLUE used for any past claims or insurance company payouts.

Google CLUE report..............

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I'll post that stuff along with pictures in my build thread when I have this "settled."

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I surmised that my insurance would go up. Luckily i qualify for every discount available.

cuisinartvette

fight them, all ins co's or most will lowball you. Look into a collector policy with National Corvette Museum, Adam Boca is great.
Have 40k on value, 0 deductible pay a few hundred a yr

No way can they replace your car for $3500..they go by expected condition of something that old you need to show them the current condition

We just went through this fixing my womans car after some jackazz took a hammer to it. Long story short their initial $3800 value went up to 8k, got it fixed no issues.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

Any chance you can claim factory estimated labor hours at some $/hr rate for all of your work?

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I had never posted any follow up to this and I always hate reading threads and never knowing the outcome because the original poster never finished the story. So here is the rest of the story from where I left off in the last updated post, post #6 it looks like:

I made an itemized list in Excel of every part that needed replaced. The list had a description of the part, part number, price, vendor and website address where the part could be found. When the adjuster showed up to view the car in person I gave him a printed copy and went over everything on the list. He began entering the list in his laptop and stopped and said he reached the amount needed to consider this a total loss, 75% of $3,700 or $2,775. I told him his information was wrong and that you could not touch a convertible fit for highway use for less than 5K. I told him that he needed to do a reevaluation of the current market and that I would provide another spreadsheet showing the current market prices of these convertibles in good shape. His analysis would also need to be for convertibles in excellent shape with a mileage of less then 75K. I told him that it was nothing personal but if there was a large discrepancy is what Geico and I said the car was worth then I would have no problem contacting agencies such as the Arizona dept of insurance, BBB, or escalating it further.

The insurance agent called back a few days later and said that they had reevaluated it higher and could move the figure even higher if I could show that the engine and paint were new. The new evaluation was high enough so I told him there was no need for further argument since this was clearly less than 75% of the new figure. Geico then sent me a check for the amount that was proven on my parts spreadsheet.


So a couple take aways:

1. Anybody that has an older vehicle that they care about should always have it on collector insurance with an agreed value policy or a normal poilcy with an additional rider. Do not wait thinking it will be fine sitting in the garage.

2. Geico wanted to lowball me and total the vehicle.
A. The first adjuster I spoke with outright lied to me and said they totaled vehicles at 65% of their value.
B. Had I not made my own parts spreadsheet Geico would have made their own up using the most expensive parts, probably comprised of parts ordered from the GM parts counter. The first conversation I had with the first adjuster he even told me you the parts are too expensive.
B. The second adjuster, even while standing in front of the car in person(!), wanted to assume that the car was in average condition.
C. Geico uses an evaluation tool called CCC1 to ensure lower values and thus lower payouts. CCC1 currently has and had multiple lawsuits against it for ridiculously low evaluations.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

And then the last post of the story that occurred this past week:

I haven't made the insurance switch from Geico to a collector car insurance yet. The hold up is on my end and it's because the insurance company wants pictures of the car's exterior (front, back, left side, right side), Engine and interior. So I have to drive the car outside and do a photo session and I don't have everything ready and dependable enough yet.

I received an email from Geico that I needed to review my auto policy. Logged in online and it said that I needed to call. So I called in and told this to an employee who said "O, I see. Well there's a lot of notes here so give me a moment to review them." I asked what this was about and that I pay the insurance every six months and I had another two months on it and I hadn't had any claims made. He again said he had to review the notes.

He came back on the line and said (summing this up) that due to modifications to my car they would no longer be insuring my car. I said OK so in layman's terms my car is worth more than a stock Camaro and you don't want to insure it. I can see that (and I can accept, understand and live with that). The employee said no that's not why it's because it's a race car and they don't insure race cars. Huh? I don't have a race car I have a show car. This car has never even set foot on a dragstrip or road course (Car probably wouldn't be allowed on a dragstrip, not sure about a road course). The employee then asked if I denied having racing seats and a modified engine and an aftermarket computer module. (They knew about them because I had to provide exact parts and prices for the payout of the fire claim) I told him that yes while I have changed much on the car that doesn't make it a race car. I could paint racing stripes on my other Mazda but that wouldn't make it a race car.

We had a polite back and fourth for a minute and I told him that this conversation didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling of GEICO. I felt they tried to worm their way out of insuring this car and it made me very apprehensive about the future if something were to happen to my other vehicles. Would geico try to worm their way out of a future claim? Maybe, maybe not. I didn't really want to stick around to find out. I'll be changing insurance companies on my other vehicles as well. I believe that this was the underwriter's response for me being knowledgeable and firm during the fire claim process. GEICO wanted to total the car out and pay me out a fraction of it's worth for it. I refused that and they paid out many times that. I've heard and read similar stories like mine. Older vehicles that are, for whatever the reason, worth more than a normal vehicle. They have a claim made and after the payout they get dropped.

Pro

I wanted collector insurance on my car, but they told me that it could only be driven in parades and stored in a very secure garage or warehouse lol.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

The group I'm going with is similar. It allows for 1500 or 3000 miles per year, nothing more. It's supposed to be just enough mileage to get you to car shows, parades, cruise-ins and the occasional evening out.

no new tires

unhook the speedo-cable, no speed-o no miles.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Yeah, any DIY car guy knows that there are multiple ways around a mileage limit it just comes down to if you are willing to take the risk. How much would you hate yourself if you filed a claim and somehow the insurance adjuster found out there was an issue with the reported mileage and they denied a claim?

no new tires

Then you sue them.

sonjaab

Sorry boys the CLUE report will sting ya anytime!
Bad CLUE report, a whiner, or a criminal and they WON"T write you coverage.

They all got your number and your SOL!

Pro

Some insurance companies are now making you put their little adaptor on your OBD2 port to monitor how much you travel. But they may not have one for ALDLs

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I think you're putting too much stock in this clue report. When I switch the Camaro over I will be paying less and getting more coverage monetarily speaking. The quotes for my other cars are also in line with what I've been paying. As a business goes, no insurance company in their right mind would pass up on insuring a married guy with kids, owns his home, multiple cars, no moving violations in 15 years and has a credit score above 800. Now had I not been married or had kids, own one car, had a recent ticket and rented with an average credit score they may rely more on that report.

sonjaab

You don't have a clue how those insurance company works!
My X is a licensed/bonded insurance broker in NY.
I know how it works and u don't have a clue tryin' to scam
the insurance company!
See U in felony court!

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

He is not scamming anyone. Hope everything works out for you Tibo.