FireDemonSiC

What's up guys. Long time no post.

I'm not sure how many people remember, but roughly 6 years back I made a build thread about building a 334 stroker and sort of lost track of keeping up with it over the years. Well, I'm here to tell you guys today that the engine is alive and well and I have the dyno charts to prove it.

Keep in mind, I'm really not posting this to brag (Maybe just a tad. I think the results are good for what the motor is), but moreso I believe the combo has even more left in it and I wanted some opinions and advice on where to go next.

For those of you who recall the original thread, I set a target goal of 350hp TO THE WHEEL. I was honestly being a bit optimistic with that number, however now I do not believe it is totally out of reach. I do believe, based on the numbers it put down, that I fudged the cam specs a bit (Will further elaborate later in post) and while 350rwhp MAY or MAY NOT be attainable, I certainly believe the combo has more left in it.

So without further adieu, allow me to lay my cards out on the table and let's get to rubbing those beards and brainstorming.

As far as components go, due to the small bore and limited valve choices, I wanted everything properly matched and VERY viable on the street which is why I chose 175cc heads and a TPI ontop. Engine specs are as follows:

- Virgin 40k mile 305 roller block out of a '92 TBI bird (Bored .030' over)
- Fully Blueprinted
- Eagle 3.75" stroker crank
- Eagle 5.7" 5140 forged I-Beam rods
- ICON 2618 forged pistons
- Ring gaps are set at .020" top ring and .022" second ring to safely allow nitrous/boost. Piston to wall clearances for use with 2618 forgings are set at .0055"
- Trickflow Super 23 175cc heads. 1.94/1.50 valves. No porting done. Bolted them on out of the box.
Here is the flow data:
https://static.trickflow.com/global/...75%202014c.pdf

- Comp Cams 918 beehive springs @ correct installed height.
- Calculated compression ratio is 10.5:1 static and 8.6:1 dynamic.
- Comp Cams custom grind roller cam. 222/230 @ .050. 110LSA. Lift is 569 Intake and 531 on the exhaust thanks to a 1.6/1.5 split ratio full roller rocker arm setup. Short travel roller lifters as well. The cam out of box spec'd in retarded 2.5* from ICL so I advanced it by 2*.

"Frankenstein" TPI. Flex Honed SuperRam base manifold. SLP runners lightly ported throughout and big siamese mod. I removed roughly half of the divider wall at the UPPER portion of the runners. Plenum matched, ported and smoothed throughout. 58MM Superram throttlebody. 22lb Bosch III Injectors running @ 60psi.

The whole thing is controlled by an EBL Flash that I have done all the tuning on since day 1.

Also one other thing of interest I'd like to mention is the fuel rails. These are stock MPFI rails other than the feed and return lines being plumbed to the rear with AN fittings. HOWEVER, I did ONE key modification to them which was to REMOVE the restrictor plug that is on the feed side of ALL F-Body MPFI rails. I eliminated the restrictor at the front crossover as well. After doing this, I noticed that my volumetric efficiency above 5000rpm went way up and the duty cycle went way down to the point that I had to SUBTRACT 15+% fueling to maintain the same AFR.

Toss in all the other "basic" build details such as a good balance, line hone on the mains, double roller, studded mains and windage tray/oil baffles.

As for the exhaust, we're looking at Hooker 2210 longtubes through 2x 2.5" true duals with an X-Pipe, Dynomax bullets and turndowns just before the rear axle.

Driveline weight reduction has been a focus as well. Chromoly SFI flexplate, smaller 9.5" torque converter, LS1 driveshaft and aluminum brake drums are a few highlights.

Now, some photos of the setup to illustrate detail:























Now, for the dyno video and, *DRUMROLL* results. The dyno used was a DynoCOM which is similar to a DynoJet. All results were obtained using heat range 7 plugs gapped @ .040", 36* of ignition timing all in by 2200rpm (With a dip to 33* @ peak torque) and 93 octane. AFR was a stable 12.5 throughout by the final pull. All results were through an UNLOCKED 9.5" Street EDGE converter. Coolant temp was consistently 170-180 throughout.:




The first pull, the car decided to flip me a big middle finger by putting down 298 to the wheel and we had a bad tach signal so no torque reading. After each pull, I would shut it down, review the datalogs and make corrections to the fueling. 4 more pulls each higher than the last. By the final pull, It was putting down 314hp/363lbs TO THE WHEEL. These are all motor numbers with no power adders. Also, for the final 2 pulls I disabled knock retard since I determined that the few counts I was getting were false knock from the converter flashing. So we can eliminate that variable.

I do believe I could have hit 320 however the operator was a nice guy and I was already overstaying my welcome. Certainly $75 for 5 pulls with AFR is not something to take advantage of.

Now, remember when I said I think the cam specs were mismatched? Here's why. Actually, a couple of reasons. Reason #1 is that even after the build was complete, I continued doing research to the point there are things I would do differently if I had another go around. I also talked to a very well known and competent cam grinder who informed me of the 75% exhaust relative to intake flow deal.

You want your exhaust flow to be in the neighborhood of 75-78% of your intake flow. Less, and you're choking the motor off. More, and you're blowing torque straight out of the tailpipe which will inherently cause HP to suffer. Given the duration on my cam grind and exhaust tube diameter/flow taken into account, I am around roughly 82%. I have more duration on the exhaust side than I do the intake which is totally backwards from what is optimal.

Also, something that piqued my curiosity was the power graph. While it does have a decent peak and a very "averagy" powerband flat enough to eat off of which is what you want for street use, I felt that it both peaked low and tapered off early. Taking volumetric efficiency and the small bore of motor into account, all the research I have done led me to expect a horsepower peak around 5500-5800 and to hold that peak to at least 6200. Take a look at the graphs and you will see that is not the case. It peaked at only 5200 and was really starting its downhill climb by 6000.



So guys, now that we have EVERYTHING laid out on the table (Please feel free to question any further details or point out anything I may have forgotten), my next question is, WHAT NEXT!?

I do believe this motor is pretty much maxed out in terms of NA performance HOWEVER I do believe it is being held back by the cam. I am setting a new goal of 350hp and 400 ft/lbs to the wheel. While I may fall a tad short of this OR I MAY actually hit my target is anyone's guess. But I'm damn sure gonna try.

One last thing I'd like to mention is that I know what the majority of the audience is thinking. It's the TPI. While I do KNOW that I could very possibly get NORTH of 350rwhp with a totally different intake, I've seen similarly modded TPIs hit that 350rwhp mark before. The runner siamesing was done a little differently and this was on a 355 we are talking about, however with more displacement and more cubes and a HIGHER RPM PEAK ON A LARGER BORE MOTOR. I think that illustrates the point I am getting at that the airflow and runner shape is not the restriction.

Who here remembers the trials and tribulations of dyndon and kevin with their 355TPI?

I guess we could also play with other ideas. Maybe keep the same cam I have now but try bolting a different, better flowing intake into place to bring the intake to exhaust ratio more into spec?

So guys, any ideas?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Respect. Aside from the novelty of building a 305, why? Dollar per dollar wouldn't a 350 have made more power for potentially less effort? Seems like the scenic route to the destination.

FireDemonSiC

I chose a 305 for the specific reason that it is looked down upon due to its inherent detriment of having a small bore that limits valve choices and that it presented a challenge on which to learn many things from.

Peak power numbers are not entirely what I was after.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You could throw more cam at it and it might make abit more. I wouldnt worry to much on the exhaust duration splits. Closer to a single pattern would be nicer tho. Keep same exhaust lobe but run intake in the 226-230 range as well. But those are pretty good typical tpi power numbers

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I'm planning a similar setup, 334, Trick Flow 175 heads-.6 lift, ported / extrude honed GM Base, AS&M Runners, Ported Plenum, etc...

I was looking at the XFI Comp Cams with a 1200 to 5200 range...
Lift on it was .5 something...
Don't remember cam specs off hand, but favors low end torque...
Check and see how it compares to your cam...

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I know you know what you are talking about, but those are big numbers for a 330ish cid engine. You really think a TPI could support that RPM?

I would leave the engine be. Maybe you could do a light port and polish on the heads as a winter project, otherwise I would play around with the suspension and rear gears. Work on setting it just right for how you want to enjoy it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its not so much rpm, its time to fill the cylinder. Abit bigger intake lobe could help here. Longer runner needs more time. Else maybe more lift but that leads to a much faster valve motion and gets harder to control or harder on parts.

But might give up some of that midrange torque.

Mongoose

iTrader: (2)

Definitely going to follow this. I've been considering a similar build for some time. Do you think a Superram would get you closer to your goal?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont think a superram is much different than your ported siamesed tpi. Have to measure lengths to be sure. Probably could siamese more, another inch to tune abit more rpm out of it.

A miniram or stealth ram likely might make more peak but you'd lose that torque. 360 wtq is no joke on a 335" motor

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Here is the Cam I was looking at... focuses torque on lower / middle instead of the higher end, working with the strength of the TPI system...

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=207&sb=0

Did you do the work to the block yourself, or what did you pay to have it done?

There is another member with a red camaro, 334, TPI, ported stock heads, ported plenum, I think his cam lift was .4x and ran a 13.4 quarter mile...

Thanks!

Rafael

FireDemonSiC

Guys, I really appreciate all of the responses. I've been monitoring the thread all day from work but in the land of being commercial parts manager, I don't have much time to respond. Well, that and the one time I did try to squeeze in a response I got a couple paragraphs deep before the work computer locked up and almost got knocked off the counter.

As far the current suggestions, I agree with Jason that a superram is not going to help much. Remember the throttlebody and base manifold on my setup ARE from a superram. The plenum I'm proud to call my own work and flows very well. About the only difference is in the runners. I have roughly 1-2" MORE divided runner length than an actual superram.

I like the suggestion to remove even more of the divider wall and that is also something that I thought of myself. As has been said, a longer runner length needs more time to fill the cylinder. Therefore a shorter runner will not only very possibly peak higher but will act as another band-aid to my duration issue. You're basically giving up runner diameter and turning it into plenum volume.

About the only other difference we're looking at is anywhere from .06 -.1" more of runner DIAMETER with the SLPs vs the Accels (superram) runners. Whether or not my particular setup will benefit from that is up for debate but as mentioned, the torque is already very good for what the motor is. Another thing to consider is the cost vs power ratio. All I have to do to have a true superram setup is find a plenum and runner set to bolt up to my existing combo. Sounds easy right? Until you take into account that every single person I've found selling JUST a SR plenum and runner set is asking $500+. Sorry, no dice.

As far as a stealth ram, that is the "no duh" option but not something I would want to pursue. As mentioned, it will sacrifice torque. This is a street car first and a track car second. I'm not looking to give up that fun torque on the street and average power for higher peak numbers. Also as a personal sentiment, I think the stealth ram is fugly, I'd have to give up my STB and also we are right back into the cost vs performance argument since I'd need to acquire mostly an entirely new intake setup.

I think my best bet ATM is to tear the upper intake off during the winter months and experiment with runner length. Like I said, I do believe as the motor sits I could have hit 320 wheel. Just look at the dyno graphs and how the power peak shifted from 4600 to 5200 and picked up 16rwhp just by playing with the fueling. It still had some very minor corrections left when the dyno pulls were over and done with. After that and another $75 in the spring, and we can further elaborate from there.



Tibo, I have seen modded TPI setups support more RPM than I am cranking out on a larger cid motor. Visit the TPI forum and check the sticky, "Quest for a better flowing TPI". Taking volumetric efficiency into account, a similar setup on a smaller bore motor would want to peak and make the same power at a higher rpm. However, look at my numbers and you'll see that it didn't even touch the RPM and powerband that they were cranking with a 4"+ bore. Subtle hints like that are what is pointing me in the right direction (At least I hope!). I just have to figure a way to get deeper into the horseshoe shaped runners to remove more divider without cutting and welding.

luvofjah Cam specs are a topic in and of themselves and require many, many variables be taken into account. It depends on not only the motor, but the vehicle as a whole to be properly matched. Of course the work you have into your own TPI will be a BIG determining factor. You don't want to have the torque of a diesel while simultaneously having the powerband of one as well.

As far as work to the block, I did the clearancing, oil system modifications and other details such as smoothing out the intake valley myself. The typical stuff such as magnaflux, bore/hone and line hone I farmed out to the machine shop.











I think I know who you are referring to with the red car. But if it's the same person we're referring to, the car also had alot left in it. Suspension and gears are all things that have been done with my setup. Currently running 3.73s. I don't think 3.90s or even 4.10s would be out of the question in the future but that is not in stone yet. Depends on several factors.

All in all, I have alot of time and effort into this TPI setup and chose it for a reason. I'd like to really try and see it shine before considering other options.

cardo0

Pretty cool build! Thx for sharing. Now drive and race that dream build to enjoy it.

Mongoose

iTrader: (2)

Understood, reason I ask is that I have a Superram on the shelf waiting for me to get started and with the results of Dyno Don and Kevin and others in CA I'm looking to apply what they've done to the 305 and see where it goes.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Just an FYI, dynocom dynos on average read quite a bit higher than dynojets. However, any dyno that requires any sort of calibration could read different from the identical one in the shop next door, so it's really a moot point. The only dyno I will ever believe the numbers from is a dynojet because they are factory calibrated, and cannot be adjusted by the end user.

With that said, I am not trying to take anything at all away from your build - just simply stating my experience with many different dynos over the years. I actually think it's pretty unique and can tell that a lot of time was put into making sure that engine was built right. While I would have chose a different path to get more power potential, I give you credit for making good power with the red headed step child haha.

FireDemonSiC

To be totally honest with you, I do not feed into the dyno accuracy BS because no matter what you do, you always have someone giving a differing opinion or argument when it comes to dyno readings. When it comes to putting my car on the dyno, I treat it like a man stepping on the scale. It is what it is. We could sit there and argue that my clothes weigh 10lbs all day long, I just ate a big meal and etc. Or we can say I weigh 200.

in my area I actually had access to all 3 dynos. There was the dynocom to the south, a Mustang dyno to the west and a dynojet to the north. The dynojet I decided against because they wanted a 2 week in advance reservation and conflicted with my Mon-Fri work schedule. Ontop of that, they wanted $125 for only 3 pulls with AFR and wouldn't have been nearly as lenient or interactive throughout the process.

Search Facebook for EFI Specialties. The guy also does in house tuning and has a solid 5 star review. You don't exactly get that sort of reputation from being a hack operator.

Anyways, not trying to come off half cocked. Just wanted to put in my two cents. Either way, time slips don't lie and I intend to hit the track next season.

​​​​​​​

86Z

iTrader: (4)

good power out of the 305. i built up my 305 and i always regretted not doing a 350. finally i'm over that hump and have been exposed to the LS world.

FireDemonSiC

Just noticed this post. To be completely honest with you, I would consider changing a few things.

First and foremost, for a small bore motor with small valves to be efficient, it is going to have to rev high compared to a 350+ with a 4"+ bore and 2.02+ valves.

I would personally consider a different runner setup than the AS&M which IIRC, are independent runner tubes like stock and are not able to be siamesed. Those long runner lengths are going to be fighting against the RPM you need to build power on the small bore.

Second, you are going to want more cam than a 260XFI. As far as off the shelf, depending on component choice I would run either a 268 or 280XFI. 280 would be on the large side for the small cubes but would support the RPM you need. As a median between the two, you can also look into the 276XR.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I agree with the siamesed SLP runner setup. That is what I used on my Vortec 305 TPI build. Put down 356 RWHP on a dynojet through a 700r4 and 2 piece driveshaft and GM 14 bolt rear. Ran a 15.00 @ 93 in a 5,300 lbs G-van on a 2.2s 60' spinning off the line on 275 street tires despite low 3.xx gearing and a stock 1,600 rpm stall torque converter. The cam was smaller in duration iirc around 208/214@ .050 but with the 112 lsa and alot of lift combined with the 1.94/1.60 valves in the fully ported 059 Vortecs it ran best shifting at 6,500 rpm. Go too big in duration and it will sound great but you will lose average torque and that is what moves you off a stop and helps you pull through the gears.

With 3.42s, a Yank 2,800 and 295s it pulled that van to a 14.6 @ 96.5 on a HORRIBLE 2.6s 60'. Trying to leave at even 1,500 rpm was a smoke show on street tires.

Ja85z28

Great post thanks. Your cam selection was near spot on, but a 108 lsa might have allowed your engine to pull 300-400 more rpm.

Thanks again for sharing your build results.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

All things equal the tighter LSA will not pull as high an rpm!

Ja85z28

Sir, I suggest that you read a book or 2 by David Vizard or at the very least consult a Desk Top Dyno Program.

BadSS

Congratulations to the OP getting very good power from a well-planned 334 combo. After entering indicated and best guess parameters (based on nearly 40 years of building and tuning SBC) into Engine Analyzer, I’d say I have to agree with your assessment that there is a little more left in it - assuming the dyno numbers are similar to the Dynojet’s. Realistically it looks like this combo could make as much as 330 – 335RWHP. The lobes for the Comp XFI are really good and your cam selection isn’t what I’d call all that bad. However, a single-pattern 230/230 XFI (intake lobe on both intake and exhaust) with the .360 lobe-lift on a 112 spread +2 advanced, could pull about the same vacuum you have now and put down about 10 more RWHP making it a little easier to hit that 350RWHP goal. I’m pretty sure though I’d just get the most out of what’s there and roll on. I sure wouldn’t put any stock into “my dyno numbers are better than yours” – sometimes people post results that just don’t add up. Anyway, you’re going to have a nice driver for sure.

BadSS

If you ran his combo in Desktop Dyno and all you changed was the lobe spread from 110 to 108 and it showed an increase in peak rpm of 300-400rpm, then it's just as bad of a simulation as I remembered it being. Also, I'd suggest you change some camshafts for real and you would know what going from a 110 to 108 spread should really do for someone - at the very least you would know if the simulation you're using is remotely accurate or not.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I'd be willing to bet that the shop with the dynojet has a wait time like that because of how many dyno's they perform. And the price of $125 for 3 pulls with AFR is very standard pricing from what I've seen locally. Dynojets are the industry standard, it's as simple as that. It's the only dyno in existence where you can do a pull in Texas, and then go to Alaska and do another pull and your numbers will be almost identical. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I know dyno's very well and understand how they work.

I'll explain it a bit just so you understand in case you didn't already know. Every dyno in existence besides the dynojet has user programability involved in order for it to spit out HP numbers. This means the percentage of resistance on the drum that your wheels spin is adjustable by the owner. So say you're engine makes 400 crank HP to make it easy....the shop owner sets the drum resistance so that you essentially get about a 15% drivetrain loss which gives you a number of 340 rwhp. Now you go to another shop with a different dyno and that owner has his set so that you see about an 18% loss, and your car makes 328 rwhp. That's just a small margin of difference, but 12 HP is a big difference on a 400 HP engine.

The difference with dynojets is that they come from the factory pre-calibrated and tamper proof so that an operator CAN NOT change any setting to change drum resistance. That's how they remain the only dyno manufacturer who can claim that you can dyno the same car at any location in the world and it'll be the same HP reading. That's why they have always been my preference and also cost about twice the price or more than any other dyno out there (Base dynojets runs around $25K whereas a mustang dyno is roughly $13K).

But anyways, I'm not trying to start a HP numbers war because like you said...the track is the true way to show a cars performance. And in all honesty, a dyno is only a tuning tool. Just wanted to give you the info that took me a long time to learn concerning dynos and how they operate. In the future, try out a dynojet and just know that even if you went to a different shop down the road, as long as they have a dynojet as well, you know your numbers will remain consistent.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I know from experience EXACTLY what LSA changes do! All things equal wider LSA cams will make less peak torque and widen the torque curve to an extent. Ideally you want to pick the LSA based on valve size vs cylinder displacement then select the duration based off the intended use to provide the necessary overlap. The duration split is based off cylinder head flow percentage between intake and exhaust. If the head flows more than 75% IE you really will not see a huge benifit going with a big split. If the head lacks exhaust flow (most Chevy heads) the engine will respond well to a dual pattern cam. In my own experience a properly sized single pattern cam works well in a 305 with good heads and usually offers more low-midrange torque and a more EFI friendly idle. The 305s need all the help they can get on the intake valve because of shrouding. When you put a 3.75 or 3.8" bore simulator on a 1.94 valve head the intake flow numbers suffer substantially worse than the exhaust side even if the exhaust side is a 1.6" valve.

If I was selecting a cam for a 334 with a 1.94/1.6 valve it would be something around 226/230 @ .050, mid 500s lift, 108° LSA and advanced 4°. It would not be an easy cam to dial in with TPI but with alot of tuning work it would run very well.

Ja85z28

^^^^ I like the fact that you now agree with my recommendation for a 108lsa. David Vizard said that the cam selection was perfect, but recommended a 107 lsa.

BadSS

I don't know why you quoted me but I don't disagree with anything you said here. However the cam you recommended isn't enough different than what he has now (if he advanced his 4-degrees) to do much of anything other than lose some vacuum and as you said make it harder to tune. The cam I recommended isn't doing all that much either for him and as I said, I personally wouldn't change what he already has. The comments you quoted were directed towards Ja85z28 saying tightening the lobe spread 2 degrees would increase peak RPM by 300-400.

As a rule of thumb, I like to go with the tightest lobe spread, the least duration, and the most lift possible for any given application. The problem is typically there are many factors and compromises that must be met and that typically involves a wider spread than deemed "optimal" or actually is optimal. Again, I prefer a tighter lobe spread to a wider lobe spread but once you get in the 108 range and tighter, you better have a REALLY good "zero-loss" exhaust system (coined by Vizard) or generally (not always) the engine is going to be susceptible to peaks and lulls between 2500-3500 that you can't tune out.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I just came across this thread for the second time. Like FireDemonSiC, I also built the red headed step child 334 - twice. The first time, the engine ate the camshaft (Crane Compucam 2050, HFT) after 19,000 miles and sent shrapnel throughout the engine, doing a lot of damage. The cause was my fault for assuming that RHS knew more than I did, so I did not check the retainer-to-seal clearance. In my defense, I didn't receive the heads I ordered and I didn't actually find out until 20 years later when I finally took it apart. What I received were port-matched World Products S/R Torquer 305 heads with 2.02/1.6 valves and KMotion #700 valve springs which have a rate of 464 lbs./in (305 class racer heads).
I was able to resurrect the engine and this time around I equalized the intake ports and fully finished the porting (intake, exhaust, and combustion chamber), had a valve job done, and now have the heads properly set up to match the single pattern ISKY 264 Mega HFT camshaft (214/214 dur, .450/.450 lift, 108 LSA). .480" with 1.6 rockers. I didn't think it was possible to fit 2.02/1.6 valves in those heads, but they are in there, and I notched the tops of the bores this time to reduce shrouding.
Last time around I used the CCC QJet, this time a manual Edelbrock 1904 QJet and computer control and emissions removed. The engine is still sitting on my break-in stand, so no dyno numbers to report. I hope to get it in the car this year.
I will be following this post. Very interested. I hope you reach your goal.

Ja85z28

Great news!!! I look forward to a video!!

Best Regards,

John

cardo0

Yes thats a nice camshaft match for a 334 stroker - at least I think so. I expect the shorter duration cam to help the stroker make torque at a lower rpm band. And the motor won't as big a gas guzzler as a 383.
I recall there is a circle dirt track class where they all race the 334 stroker and thats maybe why KB supports that motor with pistons. Also some hill climb racers use the small inch strokers too.
As for heads I run the WP torquer II's on my corvette and perfer those over any stock iron head. Great quality and just pocket porting wakes them up to flow good numbers. But ya know I believe mine came with over-rated springs to as I wiped 2 cams with them and I suspect the excessive spring press was the major cause. First cam wiped even though I broke it in as soon as the engine stated. Kinda put me in denial but yep it had 3 lobes flat by the time I pulled it. Funny as heck though was the car was entirely faster with those wiped lobes that it was with the stock cam and heads.

FireDemonSiC

Thought I'd give everyone an update.

3 months ago, my car was wrecked. Daily was broken and I was trying to get to work so bills could be paid. Got caught in a nasty rain, hydroplaned and the back end came completely around and 2 pieced a guard rail. In the end, it actually worked out in my favor. The shop fixed all the damage as well as repainted the entire car.

In addition to the fresh paint and bodywork, I located a superram plenum and runner set to complete the set (Remember the base manifold and throttlebody on the engine now are from a Superram). I think that this will prove beneficial for 2 reasons. First, the superram runners have a little more cross-sectional area than the SLPs. 1.75" vs 1.65". They also don't have those indentations the SLPs have for hose and bolt clearance. Second while the superram already has a little shorter divided runner length than my SLPs, because the runner shape is a half horseshoe instead of a full horseshoe, it will be very easy to flexhone, 80 grit throughout and shorten the divided runner length even more if I want to go down that road.

I'll be making another dyno run in a few months once everything is bolted up, minor adjustments to upper RPM VE are made and the finishing touches are put on the car from the new paint and bodywork. My custom taillights as well as my custom fabbed HIDs were destroyed so I have a bit more on my plate right now than just mechanical work. Stayed tuned...

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for updating. Sorry about the accident.

FireDemonSiC

No worries. She's back in my driveway. Looking better than ever!

They even cut, welded and glassed a nasty rust spot that starting to form on the passenger side wheel well where the inner fender pinch weld meets the quarter panel.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

In for superram updates! Looks like a well thought out build. Always neat to see someone doing something different!

FireDemonSiC

I remember talking to you a couple years back about buying a SR plenum and runner set. We couldn't come to an agreement on price but no hard feelings at all. I've actually come across several sets over the years but it's just one of those things where the reputation and the nostalgia is what sells. That's why it's taken me so long to find one.

I'm very eager to see what changes a better matched and better flowing setup makes. I'm kind of bummed to be getting rid of the runners and plenum I've invested so much time into but I think I've hit the point where I've outgrown them.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

FireDemonSiC

No problem. I'm equally as stingy on getting a good deal so I think it was just a situation where we were both too far apart from finding a common ground.

As far as my current plenum and runners, I'd like to keep them within the family circle. I'm holding onto them for my girl who is entertaining the idea of buying a thirdgen when times are better.

Good call on the copper. My steel shim head gaskets and manifold to head gaskets got the spray form.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

I used the spray on my Ls1 Cometic head gaskets on my Iroc.

For my Formula I too am using EBL flash and can't wait for the car to get out of paint so I really have some time to tweak the tune and gain some performance. Then again, I will probably slap the procharger on pretty quickly and just get at it.

How much power do you think you will gain using the superram parts over the SLP? I believe you should expect to gain a little peak RPM power. I think the power numbers made previously aren't bad for a stalled auto. I think it would be a blast with a TKO swap and a nice little power increase as well, but probably faster being automatic eitherway. I know I did a bigger cam and swapped to a T56 and ran way slower times at the track.

Do you have any flow numbers on the accel base? I know with the superram, majority of the restriction is at the base. Siamesing the runners is just to get a little more RPM out of it. I am going to be sending a superram out to Cruisinartvette to have one fully ported. I have to remove it anyway to swap to bigger injectors and will do them both at the same time with the procharger.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

A lot of those 305 tales were parroted over the years. Few guys I know were running 2.02" valves in their 305's, and regardless if they were shrouded or not, going bigger isn't necessarily better from a 305's perspective. Now, let's see that dyno sheet and those datalogs, I have a few questions myself regarding those numbers...



















Just kidding about the dyno sheet and logs. Good job.

- Rob

FireDemonSiC

Copper spray is great stuff. Also used it on the .040" Cometic head gaskets I used when I cammed the LS3 in my girl's car.

As far as the flow numbers on the accel base, Untouched they are supposed to be known to flow in the 240-250CFM neighborhood which is right on par with the 245CFM my heads are rated at out of the box. I did some light porting to my base at the openings and gasket matched it, as well as ground and smoothed out the turns some inside the runners and ran through the whole thing with a dingleberry hone.

With the correct amount of work to the SR, I think I'm going to hit the point where the heads become the restriction next.

The dyno chart is looking nice and broad but starts falling off sooner than I expected. I'm looking to both raise my peak power and also extend how long it holds the peak. The superram will help to mask some of the duration that's lacking on the intake side but the motor still needs a new cam grind to really shine.

FireDemonSiC

FireDemonSiC

Just picked it up today. $400 for the plenum, runners, a stock TPI base and F-Body fuel rails (Latter two items will be resold). Superram Sunday anyone!?

Have a bit of work to do to it before bolting it on. This is the first time I've ever had my hands on a superram. At the top of the runner where they meet the plenum, the ID of the ports is nearly 2". However, as it travels down through the runner, it necks down to just a tad above 1.6" where it meets the base. What I'm going to do is use a dremel to lightly port the base of the runners where it meets the manifold to the same ID of 1.75" at the base manifold entrance, then lightly run through it with a dingleberry hone and finish by hand sanding to an 80 grit finish.

Gotta admit I'm kinda stoked. Especially since the half horseshoe shape of the runners will prove MUCH easier to access and port. Also, I am going to remove the cast finish from the outside of the plenum for aesthetics and paint it with the same low gloss black/satin clear theme of my current intake. Will also polish the ribs on the top cover.

cardo0

Awesome intake. Wish I had SR. SR has its own base doesn't it? Or will other TPI bases work?

Glad to see your car recovered well from the crash. Man you have some blood, sweat and tears in that car.

FireDemonSiC

The base manifold and throttlebody on my engine now are from a superram set. I just needed a plenum and runners to complete it.

The wreck was definitely a blessing in disguise. I ended up better off in the end minus my HIDs and taillights.

FireDemonSiC

I also think I'm gonna cut out the runner divider on the plenum only and Siamese the port entrances.

Reason being is look at the underside of the plenum in above photo. You'll see how the divider is stained with oil mist. This is because the way the gasket is cut on the runner to plenum, it's all one big opening like that and just creates a small air gap on that divider. I don't see any point for it other than possibly causing turbulence.

devwolf

One of the weak points you may be running into is 22lb injectors, and most definatly the cam. But as far as cam, with the -12,cc dome pistons youre using, going 0.6 lift on a short duration may be an issue as far as piston clearance, but I dont know what you have your block decked to.

Im running the same 334 stroker setup, but i went with 280XFI OE roller cam. Same intake but 1.6 rockers on both intake and exhaust, with port job and textured finish on intake runner (280 grit), and a mirror polished chamber and exhaust. Boy are those 56cc chambers tight on the TFS heads. Was a nightmare to protect the valve seats. Ended up using hot glue as a buffer layer to protect from the abrasives and that worked pretty good. We also did a 3 angle on the exhaust valve. They do 3 angle on intake but not exhaust, so we went ahead and added one. Im also using -3 cc forged domes from Mahle. Bearings are all the high performace class with whatever that proprietary coating they put on them, the pricey ones. 5.7" rods. Full floaters. The entire bottom end rotational assembily is forged chromoly with a 0.1 gram balance (amazing how much price goes up when you tell them 0.25 gram wasnt enough for me lol... sorry machine shop guy, but im picky). We decked my block to 0.015 and used a solid copper .092" gasket with orings and anerobic adhesive near oil and coolant jackets. And the intake is a Pro Flo 4 XT with 32lb injectors on 58lb return pump. Claimed good up to 650hp, which is plenty for a little 334. We did about 28 degree in timing and the ProFlo ecu and distributor adjusts at higher rpm, but it doesnt tell me how much, just lets me adjust it from its base map (+ or - degree). A cool thing about those ECUs is that they self tune and learn as you drive, but they are also bluetooth and your phone can control it or show gauges, and mine came with an 8" tablet. We used stock flywheel, mostly because finding a lightened one was getting annoying. Plenty of flex plates for auto cars but lightened flywheel seems to be a unicorn. Neither Jegs or Summit had one. We are using. 3.75 clearanced oil pan with windage tray to reduce oil drag on the crank. Balancer is a Rattler. And for anyone looking at getting one, yes it makes a sound a bit like a rattle snake on steriods when you crank her up, but once at idle speed, its quiet. Exhaust is 2" into 3" shorties on 3 inch y pipe with an electronic gate. CR is 8.5:1 dynamic, exactly, where ststic is 10.47:1. The cam has an IVC of 47 at 0.050. Its a 113LSA and 280/288, with .576/.570 split on 1.6 rockers. Rockers are 1.6 scorpion full roller, lifters are comp cams OE performance series hydraulic rollers. I wanted retrofit till I saw dyno numbers between them on superchevy, and why the argument of RPM stability with RPM lifter spring kits is still out, one thing that was clear was a 5-10hp loss simply from weight of the link bar and taller lifters to accomidate them. I nust decided dog bone OR and used a tig to weld in cross members on the spider plate to make sure there was no chance of them kicking up out of the bore. Lastly, we did primary mains oiling and widened up the galleys, and used an adjustable pump that Jegs sells, set at the street strip setting, abd as for volume and head pressure, i dont remember those numbers, but my friend who builds drag engines for the local strip crowd mentioned that in this block, the top "race" setting may bleed the pan dry and flood the top end because the galleys and returns simply whernt gonna allow it on 10w30 viscosity at temp. We also used a carbon fiber driveshaft, Currie 9" fabricated rear with a Detroit locker, 11 willwood D/R disks, and a 4.1:1 ratio. The trans is the stock T5 housing with a gforce gear set in there (the taller ratio so i can keep up with 1st to 2nd shift on the 4.1 rear ratio), and the gears were REM finished, which was about 250$ after shipping to anyone wondering. They have a mirror finish which furthur reduces drag and wear. The carbon fiber driveshaft ran me about 650$ which i consider good, since they easily get into the 1k range. They tend to be good for about 5whp since the rotational mass is much less. The REM finishing on rear end and in the trans helps here as well.

Full disclosure, we have not dynoed this yet. But a similar build on Super Chevy was running in the 460hp / 420tq at the crank. Will post some actual dyno sheets on my 334 when we get her into the shop.

The major difference on that engine was a 225cc full CNC head flowing something like 310cfm. The 245cfm (@0.6") 175cc TFS heads without CNC port will make less, obviously. I wish I had read that article before buying the 175 super 23's.

Sorry that ended up being a big block of text. Ill have to manage it when im at a computer screen.

cardo0

Awesome effort devwolf! That's something to be proud of. I'm in the process of grinding out the lifter valley on my LT1 block and I can only do so much of that in one shot. But looking at the results I'm happy to do it, just don't want to get frustrated trying to do it all the first time.

Haven't looked at the oil galleys yet but expect that was more of a problem with the older blocks as my '94 block doesn't have any core shift that I can see and expect the oil galleys were drilled more accurately than early blocks also. I've seen some Utube videos on this and something I don't want to over look.

I hope to use the oil drain back standoffs if they will fit with the lifter spider in place. Trying to keep it fun as I don't have a time restraint for this. I read the block face under the timing cover should get a grinder treatment also as well as some of the crankcase areas also. Not even sure when to stop with the grinding so gotta make it fun where I can.

Thanks for sharing.

LiquidBlue

happy you guys brought this up, hadn't heard of a 334 Stroker before - very cool. If you already have a 305, why not. running out and finding a 350 block is also gonna cost money, and you may get screwed in the process. Not to mention, the decal on my door doesn't say Formula 350!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Because a 305 will cost you just as much, if not more than a 350 to machine. You'll spend more on any 305/334 specific parts because they're significantly outnumbered by people building 350 or 383 engines. And after you spend as much or more than you'd spend on a 350/383 build, you have less power than if you had built the more common engine.

Idk, I catch a lot of grief because I'm quick to step in and explain WHY it can be a bad idea to do this or that. Again, not trying to discourage anyone, just giving a heads up of the possible issues that may be encountered.

PS My 5.7L Formula does say Formula 350 either.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I personally enjoy reading this thread. I mean how many 355s or 383 tpi's can you really enjoy? Been beat to death a million times here and the Corvette forums as well. Its nice to be different. I could have built a 406, I built a 421 and didnt go LS like everyone else. Who cares. .Let the guy enjoy his car. Its nice to see a traditional small block being built. With all the ls hype they are becoming a relic. I cant wait for the Super ram dyno. Maybe he will put a miniram on it after that. Biggest hinder to these builds in the long runner. Be interesting if he puts a power adder on like a vortec or nitrous, then cubes really dont matter.