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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I thought you might be interested in a couple of notes regarding my Spring engine build. Please note my 85 Z28 is a matching numbers car. As such, the 305 block is our less than optimal starting point.
DeLeon's McAllen, Texas: 305 block .060 over bore, clearenced for stroker crank, block washer, align hone, squared (it is crucial that the stamped VIN remain untouched), main bearing oil holes chamfered, Clevite cam bearings installed, tap the oil galleys for pipe plugs, install new freeze plugs, and balance the rotating assembly Est$600
Roller Hydraulic Cam: Comp Cams custom grind xfi276 224/230 .575-.575 107 lsa est$1200 for a complete kit: cam, hydraulic roller lifters, chain, springs, and retainers.
My GM ZZ4 dual plane gasket gasket matched and mild porting by Zamora Racing Heads Est$100
Heads are GM 601's prepared by Aerohead Racing compete with 1.94 intake valves, bowls blended and gasket matched.
Additional head work by Zamora Racing Heads Mission, Texas: Disassembly, maximum street porting, and assemble with new springs and seals. Est.$500
Clevite P series main and rod bearings $250 (DeLeon's)
Final engine assembly by Zamora Racing Heads, push rods, and run in on the engine stand Est.$750
Please note, I understand fully that my stock exhaust manifolds are going to kill considerable performance. However, they dump into the SLP Y-PIPE, gutted cat, and Mufflex 4" cat back w/Spintech muffler. I am an older man with no desire to alter the stock appearance or fight headers leaks.
It'll have a nice old lope, but I don't mind a 1000 rpm idle. Actually, having the idle a little high makes it easier to drive a car with manual transmission, hides the cam, and my power breakes will benefit. Also worth mentioning is that my Tremec TKO 600, 28 spline lsd w/4:11 gears, and axles will be installed after the holidays. In addition, I run a Cliff Performance prepared CC Quadrajet in my present setup.
Note: David Vizard assisted in the cam selection by suggesting that the lsa be 107 instead of 108. Otherwise, I got a passing grade on cam selection. 😁
Keep in mind that this motor will likely have increased oil consumption because the 6" rods putting the wrist pin into the oil control ring groove. This is why I kept the rod length at 5.7" on my 334 build.
Thank you Sir and I concur with your assessment of the oil consumption issue. I have built 3 long rod SBC's with good results. I live in HOT South Texas and slowing the mean piston speed (mps) and long tdc/bdc dwell times gives me a slight cushion for detonation with an iron headed sbc with 10:1 compression and pump gas.
John, you are a glutton for punishment by building a 334.
Will your heads support a .575" lift?
And you are correct - stock exhaust manifolds are going to kill considerable performance.
Anyways, this will be an interesting build. I hope it all works out for you.
BTW, you are going to love those 4.11 gears.
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; 12-04-2017 at 08:07 PM.
John, you are a glutton for punishment by building a 334.
Will your heads support a .575" lift?
And you are correct - stock exhaust manifolds are going to kill considerable performance.
Anyways, this will be an interesting build. I hope it all works out for you.
Thanks Brother,
I am gonna have fun regardless!!! I have had 3 different Professional Engine Builders (David Vizard, Steve Pue, and Luis Zamora) look at my combination and all have given a thumbs up on the 601's. Luis thought that the lsa was a little tight, but that was not unexpected. Thinking people often disagree, but do so respectfully.
Keep in mind that this motor will likely have increased oil consumption because the 6" rods putting the wrist pin into the oil control ring groove. This is why I kept the rod length at 5.7" on my 334 build.
Otherwise, looks like a solid build sheet.
Thats really not a concern with proper rings and oil ring support rails and good machining/clearances
Thats really not a concern with proper rings and oil ring support rails and good machining/clearances
Yes but he needs to measure and ensure all the tolerances are where they need to be.
Also as a general rule of thumb, the ring packages that come with a lot of pre-bundled stroker kits are on the cheap side.
I ditched the cheap bearings and ring that came with mine and upgraded tp a total seal ring package and Clevite 77s but I believe he has already mentioned doing this.
As for the heads, the 601 is a good head and will keep compression high. Keep in mind though that it is still an iron head and won't have the detonation control or weight savings of an aluminum head. Depending on the portwork done I could see them supporting a little over 500 lift although personally I would consider spending the extra $600 on the trickflows that will probably be equal to or greater than a ported 601 out of the box.
The build sheet is so well laid out. Why skimp out on $600 with the head setup?
Yes but he needs to measure and ensure all the tolerances are where they need to be.
Also as a general rule of thumb, the ring packages that come with a lot of pre-bundled stroker kits are on the cheap side.
I ditched the cheap bearings and ring that came with mine and upgraded tp a total seal ring package and Clevite 77s but I believe he has already mentioned doing this.
As for the heads, the 601 is a good head and will keep compression high. Keep in mind though that it is still an iron head and won't have the detonation control or weight savings of an aluminum head. Depending on the portwork done I could see them supporting a little over 500 lift although personally I would consider spending the extra $600 on the trickflows that will probably be equal to or greater than a ported 601 out of the box.
The build sheet is so well laid out. Why skimp out on $600 with the head setup?
Yet again, your comments are right on point. I totally concur with Total Seal rings and the previously mentioned Clevite bearings. I have been very satisfied with Cometics gaskets in the past and intend to utilize them on this build as well.
I purchased and installed the 601's along with a .027 Cometics head gaskets last March. At the time, Luis Zamora of Zamora Racing Heads was swamped, but he's more than capable of taking these heads to the next level.
I appreciate your inside and input from others as well.
Yet again, your comments are right on point. I totally concur with Total Seal rings and the previously mentioned Clevite bearings. I have been very satisfied with Cometics gaskets in the past and intend to utilize them on this build as well.
I purchased and installed the 601's along with a .027 Cometics head gaskets last March. At the time, Luis Zamora of Zamora Racing Heads was swamped, but he's more than capable of taking these heads to the next level.
I appreciate your inside and input from others as well.
The portwork on those heads looks beautiful. I think they will flow quite well and the 601s have a very good chamber design.
As far as head gasket choice, have you calculated quench as well? I used a .015" steel shim felpro head gasket on my build. You need to take piston to deck height into account and add that to your compressed head gasket thickness to calculate quench. Quench is a very important aspect that will make or break detonation control.
Are you having the block decked at all? Typical piston to deck height with the correct pistons is in the neighborhood of .020 - .030. So assuming that with a .027" gasket would put your quench in at .047 - .057"
Optimal quench is .035" - .045". Higher than that and the quench effect begins to vanish.
With machine work they are 100% likely decking the block to clean the surface and bring piston closer to deck height. Might even 0 deck. By the .027 gasket i would assume its decked so that piston is in hole .005-.010" for future build needs
With machine work they are 100% likely decking the block to clean the surface and bring piston closer to deck height. Might even 0 deck. By the .027 gasket i would assume its decked so that piston is in hole .005-.010" for future build needs
Okay, you got me on "valve rotators".
I bought the Cometics .027 last winter with the intent a slight increase in compression. Cometics head gaskets are expensive, but mls construction lends itself to reuse. That remains to be seen. The aforementioned aside, the totally agree with foregoing a "zero deck" on this build.
I bought the Cometics .027 last winter with the intent a slight increase in compression. Cometics head gaskets are expensive, but mls construction lends itself to reuse. That remains to be seen. The aforementioned aside, the totally agree with foregoing a "zero deck" on this build.
The valve rotators are the metal "cups" that are on top of the springs. They are undesirable as they negatively affect several things including spring height.
I would expect to see a much better spring package for what you have planned.
Also, zero decking the block with a .027" head gasket will give you a quench of .027". Too tight and you really run the risk of smacking the heads with the pistons.
The valve rotators are the metal "cups" that are on top of the springs. They are undesirable as they negatively affect several things including spring height.
I would expect to see a much better spring package for what you have planned.
Also, zero decking the block with a .027" head gasket will give you a quench of .027". Too tight and you really run the risk of smacking the heads with the pistons.
Springs, retainers, and keepers are budgeted. I am totally open to a thicker head gasket. As I get older the words "I don't know" roll off my lips effortlessly as well as serking the advice of "subject matter experts."
What are thoughts regarding the combined bob weights of the piston, pin, and rod listed in original post as they compare to your build?
Yeah with xfi lobed cam you will want lighter weight valvetrain. I would delete the spring rotators and run a good dual spring that gives around 135-150 lbs seat at 1.75-1.80 install height, whatever yours ends up at. 350-400 open pressure
Yeah with xfi lobed cam you will want lighter weight valvetrain. I would delete the spring rotators and run a good dual spring that gives around 135-150 lbs seat at 1.75-1.80 install height, whatever yours ends up at. 350-400 open pressure
He can also run the 918 beehives I used however he may need to have the spring pockets machined and will need different retainers.
I wouldn't go as high as 400lbs of open pressure, personally. I'd keep it limited to 350. Also wouldn't chance more than 130lbs seat. Anything more and you run the risk of losing cam lobes on an austempered iron core. Of course if he's planning a billet cam this won't be a problem.
As far as the bob weight, I can pull my blueprints when I get home and compare if you'd like.
Man that just seems like a lot of effort and $ thrown at a 305. Especially a .060 bored 305. If you wana keep your stock engine why not just set it aside and build a much stronger 350 engine way cheaper. With those shi+ manifolds its going to be like trying to breathe with two hands held over ones mouth. Love the car btw it is gorgeous, actually one of my favorite on the board.
Man that just seems like a lot of effort and $ thrown at a 305. Especially a .060 bored 305. If you wana keep your stock engine why not just set it aside and build a much stronger 350 engine way cheaper. With those shi+ manifolds its going to be like trying to breathe with two hands held over ones mouth. Love the car btw it is gorgeous, actually one of my favorite on the board.
Let him do what he wants with his car unless you're paying for it. every single motor is a waste of money when you consider the options available with the next step up.
300+ WHP is dirt dumb easy with a properly laid out 305. Sounds like he just wants to enjoy his car. Not set track records.
He can also run the 918 beehives I used however he may need to have the spring pockets machined and will need different retainers.
I wouldn't go as high as 400lbs of open pressure, personally. I'd keep it limited to 350. Also wouldn't chance more than 130lbs seat. Anything more and you run the risk of losing cam lobes on an austempered iron core. Of course if he's planning a billet cam this won't be a problem.
As far as the bob weight, I can pull my blueprints when I get home and compare if you'd like.
SADI cores can handle that no problem. Comp -8 cores should be a SADI core
Billet would be prefered. Xfi lobe needs the pressure for control over 5500, and even tho dual plane intake it likely will want to run to 5800-6000 shifts
Let him do what he wants with his car unless you're paying for it. every single motor is a waste of money when you consider the options available with the next step up.
300+ WHP is dirt dumb easy with a properly laid out 305. Sounds like he just wants to enjoy his car. Not set track records.
SADI cores can handle that no problem. Comp -8 cores should be a SADI core
Billet would be prefered. Xfi lobe needs the pressure for control over 5500, and even tho dual plane intake it likely will want to run to 5800-6000 shifts
Interesting. I was simply going off advice from Grumpy's blog. I always like to err on the side of caution.
As far as carb's go, I'll let you handle that department. I'm EFI all the way.
FWIW, with those same springs mine has no issues going beyond 6k. Just doesn't peak where I need it to ATM. But we've already discussed that in a separate thread.
I'm also running short travel lifters but those aren't REALLY needed. They are also VERY touchy to preload and pushrod lengths (Currently finishing up an LS3 I put a lot of work into and let me tell you, getting the correct preload on those things by pushrod length only with a fixed rocker arm setup is a HUGE PITA).
Please no drama on the thread. We're all enthusiasts, all opinions are appreciated, and thinking people often disagree, but we should do so in a mutually respectful manner.
I am building the 305, because it is the oem matching numbers block. If I ever pull come to the point where I am no longer interested in the 305 block? It'll be LS3/LS7 time. Which I did contemplate prior to committing to the little stroker build. However, NoEmissions84 gave me his opinion to stay sbc and a local club event inspired me to be different.
In regards to the .060 bore, I have the expectation of a thick walled block and will plan accordingly until the sonic checker proves otherwise.
Please note, I am an older man and just want to take toy to a new level.
Please no drama on the thread. We're all enthusiasts, all opinions are appreciated, and thinking people often disagree, but we should do so in a mutually respectful manner.
I am building the 305, because it is the oem matching numbers block. If I ever pull come to the point where I am no longer interested in the 305 block? It'll be LS3/LS7 time. Which I did contemplate prior to committing to the little stroker build. However, NoEmissions84 gave me his opinion to stay sbc and a local club event inspired me to be different.
In regards to the .060 bore, I have the expectation of a thick walled block and will plan accordingly until the sonic checker proves otherwise.
Please note, I am an older man and just want to take toy to a new level.
Merry Christmas
You will not be disappointed with the results so long as everything is properly matched.
Feel free to ask me any questions during the build. I will be glad to help. I spent years researching and reading books before assembling my motor. I built and blueprinted it myself in a small workshop with mostly basic hand tools.
I did spend extra on certain items such as a mic set, snap gauges and borrowed a friend's Matco torque wrench (Because there is no way in hell I'd trust a parts store version for torqueing rod, main and head bolts).
I also have a full topend and valvetrain LS3 (Running a stock bottom end) under my belt that I also had to cut valve reliefs into the pistons on, although that one has not quite yet crossed the "First start without catastrophe" stage. Lmao.
Orr is also a very good source and will not steer you wrong.
Feel free to ask me any questions during the build. I will be glad to help. I spent years researching and reading books before assembling my motor. I built and blueprinted it myself in a small workshop with mostly basic hand tools.
I did spend extra on certain items such as a mic set, snap gauges and borrowed a friend's Matco torque wrench (Because there is no way in hell I'd trust a parts store version for torqueing rod, main and head bolts).
I also have a full topend and valvetrain LS3 (Running a stock bottom end) under my belt that I also had to cut valve reliefs into the pistons on, although that one has not quite yet crossed the "First start without catastrophe" stage. Lmao.
Orr is also a very good source and will not steer you wrong.
Thanks and don't be suprised if you a PM in early March.
Good luck with it man. It will be plenty strong enough to spin tires and have fun. I actually built a few305s and even a 265 over 20+ yrs ago when people would just give em away. We would throw spare parts at em usually my uncles leftover racing stuff mainly. So kind of cut my teeth on 305s. After the first 350 I built I just didnt see the point in fooling with a 305 again. Seems You have it well laid out though and I'm sure it will be a great build and it will be yours and no one elses-good luck
Good luck with it man. It will be plenty strong enough to spin tires and have fun. I actually built a few305s and even a 265 over 20+ yrs ago when people would just give em away. We would throw spare parts at em usually my uncles leftover racing stuff mainly. So kind of cut my teeth on 305s. After the first 350 I built I just didnt see the point in it again. You have it well laid out it will be a great build and it will be yours and no one elses-good luck
It's all about research man. Just because you are an "Older man" doesn't mean you are "Stuck in your ways" and can't educate yourself if you catch my drift.
When I bought my car, I hadn't even turned 21 yet. I was young, dumb and ambitious. At the time, I could barely even change my own alternator.
At the age of 28 after doing countless hours of research, I finally pulled the trigger on my first build. So far, the returns to all the effort involved have been everything I hoped for and something I can take to and further improve upon with future builds.
Last edited by FireDemonSiC; 12-05-2017 at 07:54 PM.
My 334 has been done and on my test stand for a year now.
You guys have got me excited. I will have to make the time to get that engine back in the car. I have been collecting parts for the last few years - it's time to get them out of my living room.
Ja85z28 - built correctly that 334 will surprise you. Desktop Dyno 2000 predicts 400 HP & TQ for mine with an ISKY 264-MEGA HYDRAULIC flat tappet camshaft with 1.6 rockers. https://iskycams.com/cart/index.php?...oducts_id=1341
I found my balancing info:
Past (and Present) Balancing Info*
Bobweight 1719 grams
Lunati rods 194 sm 398 big 592 total
PAST PRESENT
rod bearing 45 g 43 g
piston pin rings locks 636 g 639 g
piston rings locks 490 g 494 g
piston only 447 g 447 g
pin only 146 g 145 g
* I had to resurrect the engine after it ate the first camshaft and sent metal shrapnel throughout the engine.
And You are only as old as you feel!
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; 12-07-2017 at 02:13 AM.
My 334 has been done and on my test stand for a year now.
You guys have got me excited. I will have to make the time to get that engine back in the car. I have been collecting parts for the last few years - it's time to get them out of my living room.
Ja85z28 - built correctly that 334 will surprise you. Desktop Dyno 2000 predicts 400 HP & TQ for mine with an ISKY 264-MEGA HYDRAULIC flat tappet camshaft with 1.6 rockers. https://iskycams.com/cart/index.php?...oducts_id=1341
I found my balancing info:
Past (and Present) Balancing Info*
Bobweight 1719 grams
Lunati rods 194 sm 398 big 592 total
PAST PRESENT
rod bearing 45 g 43 g
piston pin rings locks 636 g 639 g
piston rings locks 490 g 494 g
piston only 447 g 447 g
pin only 146 g 145 g
* I had to resurrect the engine after it ate the first camshaft and sent metal shrapnel throughout the engine.
And You are only as old as you feel!
My 334 is making 390/450 at the crank give or take. Built properly, you can get respectable power from a 305.
12-04-2017, 09:56 AM
