The time has come

Freshly rebuilt 350 and a T5 replacing the 305 and TH700 in the convertible.

I have a load leveler and one of those 2-ton hoists that the boom extends out but lowers in lift capacity as I do. Can I use the farthest out boom reach rated at 1,000 lb (1/2 ton) and be safe to lift both the auto trans and engine? I have a 1 ton boom extension setting but it may not have enough reach (but it might).

My plan is to go like this:

1. Drain
   1. Coolant
2. Disconnect/Remove
   1. Battery
   2. Starter
   3. Driveshaft (seal tailshaft with rubber band and baggie)
   4. Exhaust
   5. Intake runners, TB, injectors, fuel lines
   6. Fans and radiator
   7. Accessories - power steering pump, smog pump, alternator,
   8. various hoses, etc
   9. distributor
   10. trans cables (various)
3. Lifting and removal of engine and trans
   1. Remove hood
   2. Take weight on engine and trans (both are still full of oil)
   3. remove motor mount horizontal bolts and trans mount
   4. lift our using a load leveler to angle upwards and out.
4. Transfer of parts
   1. Harmonic balancer
   2. Exhaust manifolds
   3. Water pump
   4. Various sensors and block off plates (knock sensor, water temp, manual fuel pump) etc
5. Installation
   1. Reverse of Removal

 

Remove the hood first; it will make everything else easier.

A small-block and 700R4 are well under your 1000lb capacity.

Obtain an old trans driveshaft yoke to keep the fluid in the trans and off your floor. Zip-Tie the yoke to the tailshaft so it doesn't inadvertently get pulled out if it snags on something during the eng/trans removal.



Not going to nit-pick the rest; it's all just nuts and bolts.

 

Having had a 305/700R4 dangling over a thirdgen front end with ATF going everywhere, and having had a 3.1L/700R4 sitting on a moving dolly while lifting the body of the car in the air with the hoist, I'd much sooner drop the engine/trans out the bottom.

Even with a load leveler, you're going to be dragging the engine/trans out at an extreme angle. These cars were designed to be bottom loaders. You can do it from the top, but why? Build some 2x4 cribs to support the tires in back and get the back end a couple feet off the ground. Disconnect the brake lines, upper strut bolts, K-member to frame bolts, and drop the crossmember out the bottom onto a cart. Lift the body with the hoist until you can roll the engine out. It takes a little planning, but it's a lot less potential mess and you don't have the engine and trans swinging around on a Chinese chain from some soft Chinese 3/8" bolts. F that.

If you've gotta pull the engine out of the top, drop the transmission out the bottom first.

 

Disconnect the torque arm.
Oh, and harbor freight sells plastic tailshaft plugs to prevent trans fluid from spilling out...

 

Okay, that is clever. So it would go like this (?):

1. Car up about two feet - back on "stands" front on a jack under K-rail jacking point
2. Remove bolts,brake lines, sway bar end links, etc
3. Lower jack and engine-trans-K-coils-struts assembly onto some sort of cart
4. Lift front of car with hoist far enough to roll engine-trans-K assembly out from underneath

 

It's pretty self explanatory. Get under the front end and decide what's easiest to leave with the crossmember, and which is easier to remove out of the way.

A harbor freight furniture dolly is enough to support the front half, I used a worthless wheel dolly under the trans pan.

I didn't raise the back end when I did the last one. Getting the rear up a bit would greatly reduce the angle of the body required to roll the engine/trans out. With the tires on the ground, the exhaust will drag on the ground before there's room to roll the engine out.

If you leave the struts/brakes/control arms/etc on the crossmember, you may want to find a way to restrain the front springs in their pockets, and tie the struts together so the rotors don't drag.

Do a Google search, there are a few threads about pulling thirdgen/fourthgen engines out the bottom, youtube videos, etc. Even going into it with a rough idea, it wasn't that bad. I completely just winged it, and didn't crush myself, so it's all good.

 

If you are taking the engine out the top, take the front tires off.
One more thing out of the way.
In my garage, I can't jack my car that high, so the cherry picker is hitting the wheels

 

I've pulled engines out of two thirdgens from the top, and installed one from the top. I see no reason to remove the front wheels.
Personally, I wouldn't remove the K-member unless I was doing a LS swap, but that's just me...

 

Great discussion. The bottom is tempting but man all that stuff to remove, Springs. Ugh!

 

I pull the trans out the bottom then pull the engine out the top. For me its much easier.

 

If I was replacing everything then k-member removal from the bottom but only if the car is on a lift supported by locks (not relying on a cherry picker ram which can drop the car on you if it let go.)
Otherwise separate the motor from the trans, pull the motor from the top and the trans from the bottom.
The (2) separate pieces are safer & easier to handle especially if you are working alone.
Get the car safely supported on jack stands all 4 corners at least 16-18" high. The front tires will be high enough off the ground for the cherry picker to clear. (check before going to far and raise the jackstands)
You will need 24" 3/8 socket extension and this will make removing the lower bellhousing bolts easy, the uppers are close to the firewall but you can get a wrench on them from the top side.
Don't forget to remove the torque converter bolts from the flex plate, you can use a flex plate tool to rotate/hold the flex plate to access and remove the bolts.
These (2) tools make this super easy. but this is my experience and opinion, you do what works for you.

 

I concur, it's the best way

 

X3.
Here's the thing. The out the top method has all the proper elements in place from a safety perspective. After the removal of the essential bits underneath, the car can be placed back on Terra firma where it's not going to move around. The engine hoist, (a properly designed one that isn't the latest POS 3/4 scale iteration of the harbour freight crap that doesn't have sufficient reach to get to the third gen properly), then can do it's job. The angle adjuster is crucial, the angle involved isn't all that severe and this can be done singlehandedly without any fuss. Having a level surface to work on is truly helpful. This is only from having had the pleasure of yarding out a thirdgen engine more times than I care to recount.
When I see the various manners that people prop the chassis up (and way up) and work underneath with a ton and change of vehicle hanging above them, it makes me cringe.
Now that said, if you happen to have the multi-mount assembly line apparatus for bottom installation that GM used (and I'm making an assumption here because I didn't work on one of those machines in the manufacturing game until the late 80's), then have at it.
Please don't get crushed.

 

If you're removing the engine and trans, you're replacing everything. It's easier to assemble the engine with all the accessories, intake, etc outside of the car and slide it all in than to do it while leaning over the car.

I realize it's not terribly obvious, but while you're under the car, the car is supported by jackstands. You lower the engine and crossmember onto a cart with rollers, and lift the car with the hoist. At this point you're not under the car working. Once the car is high enough, you can reach under the car with a crowbar and hook the cart, and pull the entire works out from under the car without ever placing your body under the car. At that point you position your jackstands, and lower the body back down onto them, again with a little caution you're not under the car while it's supported solely by the hoist. If the hoist can drop the car, it can drop your SBC and 700R4 while it's six feet off the ground too. The only difference in risk is potentially dropping the car, which a healthy male adult can lift pretty easily without the engine/trans, vs dropping an engine and trans. Either one is going to suck, you don't want to be under either one, but with a little care you're not going to be under the dead weight the hoist is supporting. No more than when you slide the jackstands under your car at any point in a project.

 

Not too easy to find pics to compare... I know I didn't take any pics the time I pulled a 305 and a 700R4 in one piece out the top, I was too busy picturing what it'd look like when the chain or one of the bolts or the hoist failed and all that steel came crashing down, to worry about pulling out the camera. Fortunately thru the power of the internet...

1st example - Notice where the boom is at in relation to the load, and note that the engine isn't even half way out of the engine compartment, much less how much HIGHER the engine would have to go to get the entire length of a 700R4 out of the trans tunnel, and over the radiator support.



2nd example - Again, look at the boom. Imagine how high the engine has to be off the ground to snake the transmission into the tunnel and around the corner to clear the radiator support in front.



3rd example - Engine dangling at an angle, hoist over 1/2 extended, no transmission, so figure another 3ft of height to get the tailshaft over the fenders or rad support.



4th example - Engine and trans extending over the puller's head. Hoist nearly fully extended. If anything goes wrong, things are going to be ugly.



Now scroll back up and see how far my hoist was extended to clear the engine out the bottom.

Thank you, please drive thru.

 

I could not find them on hf site. Link?

 

Try searching for "rubber gloves" and "zip ties".

 

What I see are four pretty **** poor examples (can I say that?) of engine extraction out the top. When using my load leveller, fitment to the engine is nice and tight with very little in the way of dangle. Maybe that's my experience coming through. Can't say.
With respect to yours , I see an engine crane being used in a manner not intended. Now if you had the correct equipment, like a lift and a proper cradle, then I'll call it square. And I would probably say that there are excellent examples of misuse with the engine going out the bottom. Pretty sure I've sen cars supported on tree stumps and the like.
I'm not saying that each method isn't without risk, but I'm a big believer in the right tools for the job. But like I said, to each his own.

 

It doesn't matter how you hang a leveler and the engine/trans from an engine hoist, geometry and angles dictate that the engine has to come out at an extreme angle to snake the trans out of the tunnel, and pull the engine without hitting the radiator support. This isn't a full frame car or truck from the 70s where you can remove the radiator support and fenders and get a clear shot.

I'm not sure how it matters that I'm using the crane to lift the car. Like I said, once the engine, trans, and crossmember is out of a thirdgen, I can lift the entire front of the car off the jackstands. The rear is still on the ground. The center of gravity is shifted far to the rear. The crane isn't supporting nearly as much weight as the engine/trans it was designed for.

Try it both ways and get back to me. I've done it from the top with the engine/trans together, and I've done a few in/out the top engine swaps with the engine alone, I've only done it out the bottom once, but the level of "I'm gonna die if something goes wrong" was vastly less intense out the bottom.

 

I've got the engine out the top deal pretty well sorted. I've never felt at risk but again I've got (or had at one time) a decent sized picker. Smooth level shop floor is helpful too.
Question though. Once you've got the car hanging from the hoist, what do you use to support the engine, trans, crossmember and front suspension as you lower it out of the chassis.

​​​​​

 

You don't.

Jack the car up, put it on jack stands. Roll the engine hoist over the engine as normal. Hook up the hoist as normal. Raise the hoist until the car is nearly off the jackstands. Remove the last bolts retaining the crossmember to the body. Raise the hoist high enough to slip the stands out from under the car. Roll your furniture dolly under the crossmember, lower the hoist (engine/trans/crossmember/car) until the crossmember is resting on the cart. Unbolt your pulling chain from the engine, bolt it to the sway bar mounts or steering mounts, hook your hoist to the chain, and lift the body up and leave the crossmember and engine/trans sitting 4" off the floor on a dolly. Roll the engine/trans out, slip the jack stands back under the car and lower the body. About the only danger is potentially working under the car while it's sitting on jack stands and the hoist is lifting the engine/trans/crossmember. But really, you can get at all the crossmember bolts without being under the engine or crossmember. The hoist is no more likely to fail here than hanging 6ft off the ground, and the body is on stands/the ground.

 

Out with the old 383 and in with the new 421. Note the cherry picker hook snug to the lifting plate with just enough slack to undo the shackle when the engine was mated to the transmission dowels and the motor mounts bolts were hand tight. Observe that no angle tiltler is needed when removing the engine separate from the trans since much shorter not to mention a lot safer and easier to handle when working alone.
Removing the radiator gives the extra clearance to separate from the transmission then lift the motor straight up.

Just remember when you see the "dream teams" pulling the motor with trans assembly on your favorite Hot Rod show they have no less than 3 people helping/spotting.
Most of us are working alone without a full blown shop. Do what works for you and be safe !

 

I did the same thing when I completely dis-assembled my '72 Cutlass to restore it.
The difference was, with no body on the frame, I mated the motor and trans together before re-setting on the restored frame/chassis, totally different scenario. I could maneuver the cherry picker without any severe angles and simply grab the trans by the tail shaft guide it to the cross member and stand wherever I needed to since there was no car body in my way. Once I was happy with the position landing on the motor mounts was a breeze. The firebird sat on the trailer for a couple years while I completed the restoration to the other car.

 

Actually I cheated and pulled the body off the chassis, I rolled the chassis to an empty bay then continued to blow it all apart.

 

I've mixed feelings about the separate engine from trans removal. I do like the ease with which the engine can be plucked without the aforementioned tilt that Drew has commented on (although I haven't had quite a drastic an angle as the images posted). What I don't like about the separation of the components is the reassembly of those components once the engine is back in the chassis. I've a 3' extension with a swivel socket to get at those transmission bolts. I find at least one is a major PITA. And the engine is about as far a rear end down attitude that you can manage to get access to those suckers.
Yes Drew, something that's avoided with the engine, et al, sitting nice and tidy on the crossmember.
Reminds me of a Honda Civic on the assembly line.
FWIW I'm an industrial construction and maintenance electrician and have seen the sub-assembly processes first hand. The multi-mount fixture truly is a wonderful invention (engine/trans, crossmember, suspension installation apparatus from the bottom).
Back in the day (waaay back) I worked as a summer student at General Motors and my job was to fasten the passenger side engine mount bolt in the late 70's Impala. That engine and trans assembly dropped in from the 2nd floor and met the bare frame rails travelling down the line. Plenty of room just like Formula88's Cutlass.

 

So there's two ways of doing it. Pick one.
Did this 3 months ago. Of course I had a friend helping...

 

I am about 1 week away from pulling out my 19 year old GM crate engine and replacing it with the soon-to-arrive 406 sbc being built by Nyes Racing. I have read lots of threads like this one over the years and can see the pro's and con's of each method.

The engine out through the top method is the way I am in favor of (for this time). I really don't want to deal with the coil springs and all of that. I already have the hood off, the nose off my car, the steel bumper off, and will be removing the radiator/fans as well. My plan was to take out the engine and trans at the same time... so that when I go to install the new engine and trans (which will be mounted together).. I'll have some idea of what I am in for (removal angles and such). If I took out just the engine from the top and the trans from the bottom...it would be a different situation when putting the new engine with this trans in as a whole unit. I have removed and installed the several 700r4's that have been in this car over the past few years, and those bell housing bolts are a pain in the butt. Mounting the engine and trans together outside of the car will ensure that I can get the converter bolts and fitment right, as well as proper torque on the bellhousing bolts.. therefore I am heavily leaning on doing both the engine and trans as a unit, and from the top.

My neighbor has a 3 ton engine hoist that he used for diesel engines and such, and my other neighbor has a engine load-leveler. I was going to buy an engine removal plate that mounts to the intake manifold for a carb (or in my case the manifold for the holley sniper TBI unit). But I have a question regarding removing the current TPI engine.. should I go through all the trouble of removing the aluminum TPI and runners so that they aren't crushed/damaged when removing the current engine? I am not sure how the load leveler will be setup? will it be like Drew's first photo on post#15 where one chain connects the Left and Right heads on the front of the engine and the other chain connects the Left and Right heads on the rear of the engine? if so, then the TPI unit can stay and wont be in the way. But am I thinking of this wrong or missing something?

 

I prefer to come out the engine bay if possible. I drop the trans first and then snag the engine from the side (over the fender) because my picker is a hair too short to go over the front bumper.

However, my LS engine won't install from the top so I have no choice but to drop the K-member and come in from the bottom. It's not going to win any OSHA safety awards. And there is the hassle of dropping all the suspension and brakes. But it is quite nice to roll a fully assembled engine & trans into place and drop the car down on the K-member. No hassle with bolting anything to the engine.

Overall though, I try to avoid removing the engine because it's a real PIA any way you look at it. Hoses and coolant are several hundred dollars alone!

 

Why is that?

 

I don't understand the fascination with leaving the transmission attached. Sure it can be done, but why ? If it is coming out, separate them in the car and take the engine out the top and trans out the bottom. You are gonna be under the car anyway disconnecting various items. With the trans removed you can see the back of the heads and access the ground wires easily. I have not pulled the engine out of the bottom of a 3rd gen and don't know how the coil springs are to deal with. I have pulled the engine trans assembly out of the bottom of a 4th gen and it was a piece of cake.

 

Drew, in post #6, what are you attaching the hoist to to lift the car? I know I'm a spoiled mechanic who's been using a two post hoist in a well lit shop for a lot of years, but that photo scares me. The basic idea of dropping the engine and trans out the bottom with the crossmember isn't bad. This is how most newer engine/trans R&Rs have to be done. The 4th gen has to be done this way because the engine bay is too short to allow the engine to be pulled out the top. Newer cars, 4th gen included, are easy to do because they're designed to be done that way. If I'm doing any major engine work on a 4th gen, I still drop the trans first, before dropping the motor because it's alot easier to separate the trans from the engine with the engine still in the car. I never really felt that the 3rd gen was a true K-member car, where the K-member comes out to drop the motor. I know it works, but it just doesn't seem like the car was designed to be done that way.

In all the 3rd gen engine swaps I've done, I always went out the top with the engine detached from the trans. I did a few leaving the trans in the car and wrestling the engine onto the mounts. The last few I've done, I dropped the tans first, which makes the job much easier. Once you know how, the trans comes quick and easy. Separating a trans from an engine with the assembly on the shop floor or even hanging on a hoist, is a PITA. Much better to remove the trans first when the TC bolts are easy to access and you have much better control of the trans with the trans jack. Once the trans is out, with the radiator out and the intake manifold off, the job is very clean and neat. Especially on a two post hoist in a dry well lit shop. I do always pull the front tires as it allows the car to be lower and still clear the engine hoist legs.

 

Happy New Decade all! This board continues to be awesome. Great thread, info, and spirited discussion. We certainly have strong experience and strong opinions. Here's to another ten years!

On the topic, one thing I will do if pulling from the top is to remove the front wheels and lower the front of the car down as far as it can go. This keeps the lifting height and angles to a minimum.

 

There is something to be said for the engine coming out on it's own. As mentioned, the lifting height is reduced and the angles are less severe although with the proper lift (not the harbour freight 3/4 scale version) it's still being operated within its design parameters regarding height. That the engine/trans are getting near vertical doesn't change the weight but the centre of gravity is higher up than it would otherwise. So there's a word of caution for you.
Regarding getting the vehicle as low as possible....remember that the hoist legs have to fit under there.

 

Car jacked up high enough to get underneath, wheels still on. No crazy angle of the engine, no abuse/overloading of the lifting equipment, never felt unsafe or sketched out.

 

Such is the advantage of separating the engine and trans. I've just never enjoyed the bell housing bolts with the components in place.

 

The bomb proof flywheel housing is enormous, and I have permanent engine stands like a 4th gen that get in the way.

 

I also used a chain between the V6 mounts to lift the crossmember back in the car, so I could set it back on the ground to avoid nosey neighbors asking about the immobile car in the driveway. As I've mentioned a few times before, with the engine/trans/crossmember/suspension weight off the front of a thirdgen, an average adult male can easily lift the entire front end of a thirdgen off the ground.

And no transmission hanging off the back, either.

 

Is this a continuing rip on my 'baby ate too many carrots and erupted like a volcano' orange HF hoist? Because ****-dawg, I could drive to every store in town and not find a better hoist, I'd just spend more money. I've had a few different hoists, I've used friends hoists, this HF is the 2-ton model they don't even sell anymore. I've lost count of how many engines it's pulled at this point. I guess I could grab some Mexi-chrome and stencil CUMMINS on it if that'd make folks feel better. The best hydraulic ram is still an O-ring failure away from dropping your engine, regardless how much you spend your hoist.

Center of gravity is going to matter when it changes the loading on the cheap bolts you're using to pull the engine. It's going to matter when the engine/trans you're lifting comes down on the end of the tailshaft and vaults a few hundred pounds of steel and aluminum in a random direction. Personally, I'll stick to dropping the engine the foot or so to the ground and lifting half the body up in the air for the 30 seconds it takes to roll the engine out from underneath. But to each their own.

 

I noticed the CUMMINS too. Lol.

 

Actually Drew, it wasn't a comment on your equipment cause I've no way of telling if it's anything like the POS big box hardware store one that I have. Up here, our version of Harbour Freight is called...Princess Auto (can you believe it?).
Anyway, when I purchased my first engine hoist from them, it was full sized and very robust. Pulling an engine out of a long nosed 3rd gen was easy peasy. In fact, the lifting arm didn't even have to be fully extended. Now fast forward a couple of decades and the old Princess Auto lift wasn't doing so well. The equivalent replacement looked the same but when I went to use it, I found that it had been reduced in its dimensions. Thus my 3/4 scale comment. It wasn't directed at you. But it was directed at those who probably have the same lift, branded differently, because as I see it, Princess Auto and Harbour Freight products are off-loaded from the same ship. Using THAT lift, in any capacity, puts one's appendages at risk!
No insult to you or your hardware intended.

 

Gotta say I have the big red one (new off eBay) and it seems plenty stout. I will paint "Caterpillar" on it!

 

You'll know in two seconds if you have the full sized version. The 3/4 version, with the boom fully extended, the lift makes contact with the bumper before the chain is centred over the engine. About 2 or 3 inches too short. I think this is why in some of the images posted, people were pulling the engine out from the side. I resorted to that once but never again.

 

It takes a real man to rock orange with pride , , , rock on bro !!!!!

 

OK good. LOL I've got the Orange hoist, matching Orange engine stand, and even a pair of Orange jack stands. All that same pukey washed out shade of HF powder coat. Then HF goes and changes everything to gray/silver that matches most of my older Craftsman stuff. Kind of like how the magnetic rubber glove holder was bright red powder coat, I painted it gloss black to match the Craftsman tool chest, then a year or two later HF starts selling all their tool chest stuff in every color under the sun. My previous hoist was one of those non-folding hoists with the extending booms so you can make it take up a touch less space, in bright red. Paired it with my silver parts store engine stand. Sold that pair because I figured I wouldn't need them again. Then the life pulled me back in. Now I'm afraid if I sell the ones I've got, they'll be chincy'er and more expensive the next time I need a hoist...

Yes, after the first few AVE videos, I was pretty sure Princess Auto and the Power Fister products were a joke, but then you find out its all real! Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

Yes sir. Very real. Although the "Power Fist" branding I believe is being replaced with "Pro Point". Whatever that means. These people really need to bring up their marketing game. I've been to several HF stores during my time in the U.S. I was so impressed with the "Pittsburgh" brand I bought a set of transfer punches on the spot. It was until much later that I sadly learned Pittsburgh is a town somewhere in China (if you know what I mean). Oh well. At least the name is cool. Like a Cincinnati milling machine or an Ohio crankshaft!
Just whatever you do, all of you guys and girls out there, don't lose a digit and otherwise maim yourselves doing something unsafe (said the guy who's got a few scars and interesting stories to tell....)

 

Yep. HF plays brand name games all the time. Central Forge, Chicago, Pittsburgh, etc. Now they're pushing ICON hand tools and all kinds of other "American" names that are completely meaningless. Anyone with half a brain sees thru the subterfuge, but it seems to be working for them. The Made In The USA tool market has slowly been outsourced to China, the quality has dropped again and again, meanwhile the Chinese/HF have steadily improved their wares to the point that the side by side comparo has practically met in the middle. The Chinese tools are still more affordable, the more expensive brand name stuff has stayed the same price while the quality has dropped.

As much as the HF tools bug me, I gotta admit for a specialty tool, or something that will be used only a few times, or that will be used hard and potentially lost or thrown away, they can fill a need. The $15 sawzall I bought a decade ago to do one remodeling task is a good example. It gets hot enough after a few minutes of use that you don't want to hold onto it, but it did one demo job, then another, and another. It's still going. With a quality demo blade it'll hack and chop through screws, nails, shingles and tar paper, 2x4s, siding, it's a beautiful thing. Totally crap tool, I wouldn't turn my back on it or leave it plugged in unattended, but it gets it done.

 

Some tools are universally bad regardless where you buy them. Such is the case with engine stands (at least the ones I can afford). The only time they don't shake and rock is when you're not using them.

I've been inside a Harbor Freight one time and it was to buy the 2000 pound folding engine stand. Oh, you'd be a damn fool to put 2000 pounds on it. But that thing is GREAT for 400 pound engines! Best engine stand I'll ever own!

 

I cannot speak for the quality of the newer hand tools. Over time I pieced together a decent set of tools to work on my 3rd gen, and most other vehicles in general.

Most of my hand tools and floor jack are from the 1990s some 1/2 drive sockets and breaker bar, that are from the mid 1970s, were handed down to me by my dad.
My cherry picker and engine stand are from 2000 when I replaced the 305 with 383.

 

This is the engine hoist I plan to use for my engine/trans removal, and to install the new engine/with existing transmission also. I borrowed it from my neighbor. It is a 3 ton Mac Tools unit that he has used to do engine work on several Diesel trucks. I dont think I will have a problem, do you guys?

I do plan on taking engine and trans out together, same for install. as a unit. I have the nose off the car and the bumper, and radiator/fans are also out.

 

They all look the same but some are dimensionally smaller/shorter and unless they're side by side, you wouldn't notice. My experience is that the older version, (and that unit looks like it could be older) has enough boom length to centre the hook over the intake without making contact with the bumper. The newer models, like the 2nd one I purchased (from the Canadian HF equivalent) is too short to extend that far. I made a boom extension and managed to make it work but I'm pushing the design limits that way. With the bumper off, it may be that the short ones would work though.