I have a chevy 350 im about to put in to my stock carb trans am.I want to able to beat stock LS1, LT1, EVO, and STi. If anyone can advice on cam, intake selection or anything else I need to improve . Also if I should consider power packages (edelbrock, holley).

Thanks

 

Power packages typically aren't worth the price tag that accompanies them. You can usualy have more power for less money by peicing a system together yourself. They are okay if you don't mind spending a little more for less power.

Before you mod your 350 we need to know what you are starting with.

Where did it come from?
Is it a roller motor? (doesn't really matter either way)
Is it going to be carbed?
What heads does it have?

After that we need to know how the rest of your car is set-up.

What rear gears do you have?
What transmission do you have?
Suspension upgrades?

This isn't really street racing but since it will most likely get locked if I move it into another thread, I will let it live.

 

1980 350 GM Replacement
bored .060
Carbed
Stock Heads (Going to be Ported and Polished)

Stock rear end (2.73 i think)
Performance Rebuilt 700R4
No suspension upgrades

Woops, I hit edit and not quote. My appologies
-shifty

 

Do you have a casting number on those heads? There are tons of stock heads that are used on replacement motors. Chances are you have some terrible truck smoggers with monster chambers.

The key to making the power you want (you will need a solid 300+) will be in your heads and cam selection. What type of budget do you have?

 

If the motor is reletivley fresh I would get a set of vortecs or some other aftermarket heads. Not only will they flow better than the heads you have even if they are ported ,but they will also bump up your compression ratio.I am guessing that this has to be reliable and able to drive every day so I would pick a modern hydraulic cam that has 270 -280 advertised duration.Something like the crane z cam 274/280 , comp cams XE 274/286 or lunati voodoo 276.Then I would get a performer RPM manifold and a 650 doulble pumper.Of course you will need headers and a good free flowing exhaust.You will also need 3.42 or 3.73 gears and a 2500 converter.Something like this should get you into the low 13's maybe hi 12's if the rest of the car is set up decent with things like frame connectors and sticky tires.

 

Shifty,

my head casting numbers are: 462624

budget: plenty
_____________________________________

Thank you 84firebird383 for your advice.

 

The affore mentioned advice given by 84firebird383 is sound. I would look into a set of the modified vortecs that you can buy from www.sdpc2000.com. They come with the guides cut down to run cams with larger than .480" lift.

 

two more questions:
Are these upgrades going to ruin the drivibilty of my car?(Daily Driver)

What does a higher stall converter act like? Is there no power till it kicks in?

Thanks

 

It all depends. I assume you are going to have a carb set-up which won't be as efficient as a fuel injected motor with the same power out put. With a carb motor it is hard to have a lot of power and fuel mileage at the same time. If you are not concerned with that but only the overall drivability of the car fear not. You just need to select a cam that will keep the motor in the powerband you intend to use the motor at. For a street car that is driven in normal everyday situations a cam with a 1,500 to 5,000 rpm powerband will work wonders. It will keep the power in an area that makes it friendly from off idle where the car will typically opperate. Now if this is a full drag car with steep gears you would choose a cam that produces maximum power at really high rpm's. If the car isn't driven on the street you won't have to worry about low rpm power since the engine will never operate there. This is only the basics. Take a look at some of the crate motors GM offers. Take a look at their cam and head specs to give you an idea of what kind of power you can make. ALl of the generals crate motors (with a few exceptions) are meant for use in a street driven car with great on-road manors. With the right combo you can have your cake and eat it to. Fuel injection just makes it easier to achieve big power with great street manors and fuel economy.

If you go too high than yes. A higher stall will just help keep your engine in the rpm band where it makes the most power. When you buy a new cam ask the manufactuer what their recomended rear gear and torque converter are for that cam. You need to match them to make them work in harmony.

 

Thank you Shifty and firebird for your advice you helped me alot.

 

An Edelbrock carb will give you better fuel economy and drivability than a 650 double pumper,but at the cost of a few tenths in the 1/4.The double pumper shouldn't be to bad in warm weather of california tho. Which brings up another question. Will you have to worry about emissions testing?

 

your from california. dont they have emissions testing?

 

You have been given good advise, but just one more thing, When you get all that put together and tuned, if thats not fast enough you can put a small nitrous plate system on like say a 125hp shot then when you use it you can knock off aprox .75-1.0 sec and and then when your done your back to regular performance and gas mileage. Just do like they say and select smart/good parts and you should have no problem. The KEY is to component build with items that work in tune with each other like the cam/intake combo, gears/ stall. GOOD LUCK

 

If money not a option I wouldn't get vortec heads, I would go with AFR, TFS, or Brodix RR heads. All out perform vortecs and will save some weight. AFR should be your first choice.

 

I would go with the modded Vortecs if you don't want to spend cash for some aftermarket heads (definitely go this route over the crap stocker heads you've got, the 64cc chambers if nothing else will bump your compression into a decent range, not to mention the much better flow they'll offer), and run something like the CompCams XE268 cam with 1.6 rockers. That with a Performer RPM intake, headers/catback, and a decent tune should net 375+ hp very easily and be 100% streetable.

I had stock Vortecs and a XE262 cam (w/ 1.5s) in my old 87Z and it hauled some *** IMO for such a budget buildup. I've pulled on a couple stock LS1s and there is no doubt it would dropkick my new near stock LT1 Z... It was very driveable, and got pretty decent gas mileage (somewhere right around 18 mpg mostly highway driving with 3.42 gears). My LT1 actually isn't getting much better gas mileage either, slightly surprised...

IMO if you try to stick with the stock heads with a pretty standard port and polish job I don't believe you'll reach the 350+hp required to run with stock LS1s, and definitely not enough power to easily beat most stock ones... It would have to be a very good porting job on any of the smogger heads to match the unported Vortecs. CarCraft or CHP had an article series on a Goodwrench 350 where they ported/polished the stock smogger heads (I forget the casting number) and didn't come anywhere near the stock Vortecs on the flowbench or the dyno on the same 350...

 

Just get VTEC, it's the only way to be truely fast.

 

You want to race some tough customers. Why didn't you start out with a ZZ4, ZZ383 or Fast Burn 385 motor? Heads aren't everything, it's the complete engine combo. The LS1 is no joke, it's mid 2005 and it's probably hard to find one without any mods.

 

the secret to any motor is in the heads.. if you want a badass LS1 killer SBC that has the same mild street mannerisms of the LS1, you'll have to build one the same way. get some 18* cyl heads that can still retain the stock valvetrain (that'll keep the price closer to reasonable) and have them ported.. not hogged out, but cleaned up.
then stick in a smaller mild cam. something like a 224/228 on a 114LSA...
the car will easily idle, and put down enough to whomp bolton LS1s... (and if you can do that, then STis and EVOs are a joke.. lol)

 

um. vtec is not third gen related at all. i think you meant vortec

 

Oh right, that must have been what I meant. Thanks.

 

 

Absolutely!

Some people throw the term 'stock LS1 Heads' around rather loosely... but what most don't realize, is that these heads are literally better than what most of the aftermarket has to offer out there.

This is why it's insane to even compare a stock L98, to a stock LS1 (off topic).

 

I think some of you guys didn't read his info. I said it's the engine combo, not just heads. This is his combo and the best heads in the world aren't going to make him beat an LS1 car with his parts.

 

i dont think the original poster has a clue about emissions in CA.. which is where he is from... CA...

so a carb is out of the question..

power packages from eldelbrock and holley are out.. they are not 50state legal..

you will NEVER be able to out handle an EVO or STi, in a 1/4 maybe, never on a road course. if they have modded cars... then by by ... my next door neighbor and all his friends have Sti's and Evos.. they have a little car club... and damn are these cars just down right AWESOME in handling, braking.. the ones with upgraded turbos are running mid 12's up here at Rocky Mountain Race Way.. and thats an altitude of 4500ft!!!!


i think if you are wanting to whomp on people.. in those types of cars.. without having to piece every part togethor and try and make it work... your best bet is an LS6 crate motor... tuning is already done if you find a stock PCM..that engine will take your 3rd gen to the mid 12's in stock formation..


like i said.. if you want less of a hassel of buying parts, installing them, then try and tune to make it work... go with a crate engine, the only thing will hurt will be your wallet... but 6k for an LS6 is beans...

 

Other than the 2.73s there is nothing there that would keep him from reaching his goal, a couple suspension bolt ons would be easy/cheap. If the 350 shortblock is fresh (as I'm assuming it has been recently rebuilt being .060 over) it's a perfect base to build a pretty decent budget motor setup with. 64cc heads should put the compression in a decent range even with the dished pistons, and a good modern cam grind will let him reach his power goals easily. He can easily make 375+ hp with that shortblock with a good set of heads and a decent cam/exhaust, again, assuming it's in decent condition...

 

OH PLease! Now you know that isn't a true statement. If you spend a 3rd of what a EVO an STi cost into a 3rd gen you can get that kind of performance easily. An guess what! You don't need a LS1 or LS6 either! People been running 350's into the 10's and 11's for years before a LS1 or even LT1 was even dreamed of.

Look its all ready been proven that a 3rd gen with stock suspension and 3.23 gears can run 12.3 in the quarter with a 355, Trick Flow heads, computer friendly HYD FLAT TAPPET CAM, HSR and Shift kit. The car made 330hp at the wheels after dyno tunning with street legal drag lites.

Now he already has by the looks of his combo a good bottom end, all he needs to do now is buy some aftermarket heads like AFR and have them ported even more then buy some 3.73 gears, stall convertor, and good tires. Also if he can get by with a carb setup that just makes everything even easier to make power for less!

For the money it cost to buy a LS6 crate motor you can build a more powerful engine for less.

 

OH PLease! Now you know that isn't a true statement. If you spend a 3rd of what a EVO an STi cost into a 3rd gen you can get that kind of performance easily. An guess what! You don't need a LS1 or LS6 either! People been running 350's into the 10's and 11's for years before a LS1 or even LT1 was even dreamed of.

Look its all ready been proven that a 3rd gen with stock suspension and 3.23 gears can run 12.3 in the quarter with a 355, Trick Flow heads, computer friendly HYD FLAT TAPPET CAM, HSR and Shift kit. The car made 330hp at the wheels after dyno tunning with street legal drag lites.

Now he already has by the looks of his combo a good bottom end, all he needs to do now is buy some aftermarket heads like AFR and have them ported even more then buy some 3.73 gears, stall convertor, and good tires. Also if he can get by with a carb setup that just makes everything even easier to make power for less!

For the money it cost to buy a LS6 crate motor you can get build a more powerful engine for less.

 

you didnt read my whole post very well...I SAID HANDLE... not 1/4 mile... HANDLE... road racing...

you have obviously never been in an STi with suspension upgrades and brake up grades.. you would never get a 3rd gen get to handle like my neighbors STi... reason being #1.. AWD.. #2.. it weighs 2800lbs STOCK.. #3 its power to weight ratio..#4 independant rear suspension

ive been my neighbors navigator in a whole bunch of road races up here.. not to mention canyon/mountain runs

my 3rd gen has very decent suspension mods:
Subframes, LCA brackets, Tubular LCA's, Sportlines, Tockico Illumina's, 34mm front sway bar, 21mm rear, 17x9.5 ZR1's with BFG KDW's, -.8 front camber adjustment. Strut tower brace

my car is the lightest of the 3rd gens, since i have the RS barebones model with power NOTHING, hard top, no A/C, no rear seats. im using a 355TPI with a 6 speed.. 1LE front brakes, LS1 rear end with LS1 disks, 3:23 rear end

i cant handle anywhere near what his car can.. and braking is just crazy.. his 12.8" disk 4 piston brembo's with hawks HP pads are amazing..he has fully adjustable coil overs, front and rear, EDFC(electronic dampening force control) which controls the shock settings from INSIDE the car..

At the SCCA events in Wendover.. he hands Race only Lotus Elise's and Race only Miata's their *** by beating them by over 2 seconds on the course.. this STi is also a daily driver with full interior.

so go back and read what i said in my earlier post.. YES its possible to beat them in the 1/4 mile... YES it IS... on a road course.. you WONT be able to out handle them with a 3rd gen, maybe something else

BACK TO THE TOPIC:
i told the poster of this thread... that the easiest way AND CA SMOG LEGAL WAY, would be an LS1/LS6 crate engine for what he wants to be able to beat(low-mid 13sec cars)

.. now if the car will not be used on public roads he can build whatever the hell he wants and call it a day... CA you cant.. so if you want something with high HP, smog legal, and not have to piece together and spend hours and hours tuning it.. then yes an LS1/LS6 engine is the way to go if he wants to beat these types of cars....

 

Yeah, doing a LS1 or LS6 swap would obviously have you running with newer LS1's.Its not the only way to do it emissions legal tho. Look a few posts up where a mild 335 tune port with 2.73's took out an LS1 vette twice.Doing an LS1 swap would be more expensive and harder to do than a traditional smallblock.

 

I'm honestly not trying to add fuel to the fire here... but the reasons listed above are honestly irrelevant.

Case in point, my buddies 1989 Porsche 928. Being RWD, and having a curb weight of 3483 pounds... it will out handle you're neighbor's STI any day of the week (including Sunday).

It's not easy (or for a better word, cheap) to get our cars to handle with some of the world's elite (in respect to handling)... but this doesn't mean it can't be done. The only 'real' question here is, is it worth it? But the answer to that question simply boils down to the owner's personal preference.

Not putting down STI's in any way whatsoever, as I've test driven them already, and am very impressed. But to say that our cars could not handle with them (with the right suspension components), would be a big mistake....

 

i was compairing the 3rd gen camaro and STi... not a porsche or any other car.. and i think you missed the part where i said "another car maybe"....

ha..you think you can get a 3rd gen camaro to out handle a modded STi? .. i bet the one you rode in was stock or slightly done.. but a 3rd gen would have to be drastically, drastically altered to keep up with his STi on a road course

im not going to get into the "my dad is bigger than your dad" game with you..

*disclaimer* i dont advocate _R_I_C_E_ but respect cars that perform

BACK TO THE TOPIC part 2

the only other thing i can think of that would be CA smog legal.. that would waste modded LS1's, EVO's and STi's.. would be to go for a 350 Super Ram with an LPE219 cam, trick flows(or AFRs) and a built auto tranny or 6 speed.....again.. the tuning, accuiring parts, and money become the issue.. that set up would be in the ball park of 4-5,000 when finished..

so i go back to my original theory of.. get a damn 02 LS1(already comes with the LS6 intake), swap the cam, go to 1.85rr from SLP, have some one flash the PCM.. and call it a day..

once you do all this though.. then comes the hard part.. driving it, so it does what it was built to do.. if you cant drive, you better learn NOW or dont waste your time.. just because your car has all this power doesnt mean you will just womp everyone without trying..

case in point.. that kid FlynlowRS who swapped in an LS1/T56 with No2.. 1st time at the track and almost put it into the wall coming out the gates at CA speedway.. needless to say his LS1, after 10k miles.. is toasted.. blew it up...

there is always the cheap and crappy way to beat em.. "use NAAAAWWWSS" (i have to go kick my own *** for even suggesting that now)

 

please dont use NOS...and about the handling argument.....all it takes is $$$money$$$

 

KillJoy all i hear from you is upgrades this and upgrade that on a STI! Fact is all of those same upgrades can be bought for a third gen. An if you do your research you will find that one of the Hot rod magazines already upgraded a Thirdgen suspension years ago and it was handling an cornering the same as a porche 911. I have the mags to prove that!

Ok less just stop talking about road racing altogether. The guy that started this post wants to beat EVOs an Sti on the street not a road course I'm sure.

There is no doubt the Ls1 has some awesome tech in its design but I can build a stronger motor for less.
Here's what you need to buy to start out with
180 or 190 AFR heads get this above anything else!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A good stall convertor
3.73 gears
Cam that matches stall convertor
and really good tires!

A sound fuel system will is always good if your going carb you should be alright with that. As for you suspension it should hold up for a little while anyway! My did for a couple of years anyway.


By the way my good friend Timmy that lives two houses down from me has a upgraded Sti he's making about 330 hp. I road in his car and I'm impressed but he has been spanked! I'm also gunning for him too I'm just waiting for my tranny to come in.

 

sorry to burst your bubble there ... but anyone who knows about road racing and porsches knows that the 911 is NOT the best handling car.. funny thing is.. the weak sauce boxter S actually handled better than the 911.. ive owned 2 porsches.. and been member of porsche clubs.. ridden in many cars with many mods, driven several.. and there are a few out there that would give this car a run and beat it.. but they all need upgrades..

ok so all the same mods an STi has, a 3rd gen camaro can have the same? ok so where are the camber,caster,toe adjustments for the rear end of the 3rd gen then? where are the EDFCs? where are those? sorry guy.. just because you see a magazine doesnt make you an expert.. anyone knows anything .. knows that magazines are not 100% correct on the tests and things they do..

but hey.. you dont want to talk about it.. so why bring it up again?

get yourself out to a road course, check them out for yourself.. ever hear of a course in Japan called Tsekuba(cant spell it) pronounced SEC-U-BA? its a track in japan that the japanese/world drivers use to prove the handling of super cars in stock formation...cars are also sold on their "Tsekuba time" out there.... a good time would be 1:14.00 and less.. your 911 (04) pulled a 1:12.56 the STi did a 1:11.94 same driver in each car.. each car got 4 laps 1st being the warm up.. i dont have a magazine for that info.. i have the video..

oh but dont worry.. i havent done my "research"

 

Haha.

 

dude, thats my point.
those AFRs are about the nicest off the shelf 23* street heads you can buy, and they flow like crap compared to dead stock LS1 heads.

what does that mean?


it means that in order to make the same power as the LS1 does, its going to need more cam. thats going to make your MPG go down. your driveability go down. and the peakier powerband is not going to be helpful if you're trying to autoX or whatever the hell it is they're arguing about handling for. (didnt bother reading the blah blah blah)

if you want a LS1 killer, and not a hot SBC, you're going to have to go about it diffrently then most of the other cars on this board... because lets be honest.. the far majority of the cars on this board are slower then the LS1.. of the remaining faster ones, the far majority of them are hotter motors then the LS1 is.. they get less MPG, less vacuum, loap more, ect.. or they're outright drag cars.

 

Hey killjoy i would love to see you get the independent rear suspenison adjustments perfect. It doesn't happen! not to mention the fact that if you do get all the adjustments right they are very easily knocked out of spec again. hence the reason the solid axle on our cars will out perform most indepent rear suspension cars. You can talk all the you want but in the end we're talking about going fast in a straight line which you seem to know nothing about. you want to talk about this go get on the autocross board.

 

Uhh, no, I did not miss that part, and, umm.... maybe if you 'read' what I wrote, you'd see that I was merely pointing out the similarities between the Porsche 928, and Third Generation F-Body.

Both have rear wheel drive, both have V8's, and both are pretty heavy in comparison to the "AWD" STI.... and yet, the Porsche, being a decade older than the STI, would dominate it.

If "Rancho Suspension" really wanted to, they could have designed a kit for our cars to make them out handle almost anything on the road-course (but there has to be a demand for them to even bother with testing and research, which means big $$$$$ on their part)....

Well, KillJ0Y... now we're ***-u-ming aren't we? I mean, if the STI that "I" drove in was impressive, but not 'that' impressive, it just 'had' to be stock (or sightly done), right?

BTW, you should really consider applying for a job with the other lobbyists over at "Car and Driver"...

Hence the reason why I mentioned, "Is it really worth it"... but regardless, it can, and has been, done already.

 

you guys..honestly im SURE xse7 DOESNT CARE WHO WOULD OUTHANDLE WHO....he wants his engine to be more powerful, he doesnt wana hear B/S about THIS STI IS BETTER THAN THIS 3RD GEN...so why dont u go and make your own seperate thread about this g0dly STi KILLJ0Y? no offense....u know what ur talking about but just drop it...because he wants to know what will make his car FASTER, not anything about 911s/STis etc.!!!!!

just as everyone else has advised:
you need a nice set of flowing heads, a nice mild cam, a good flowing intake, if get a 650-750 cfm carb depends on how much power ur getting, keep your cam 1500-5500 if u want it to be street (as i have learned off this forum). and of course YOU NEED EXHAUST!!!!!! headers, and full exhaust, once u pass emissions.....GET A HIGH FLOWING CAT, or a fake cat or whatever!!!! and 3.73s will help too, and a stall converter!!

 

well if u port/polish your heads u have now cant u port your intake to match???? im sure thatll give u more HP...

 

OH PLEASE!!!!
What make believe world do you live in? I think that Ls1 swap you did to your car has went to your head! LOOK IT UP and you will see that the LS1 head only beats AFR at .100 lift after that AFR and even TFS heads has them beat hands down!

Here are two sites to prove that!
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...fo/heads1.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...98/index5.html
I have more sites that prove this just ask.
Also those camparisons are against 180 and 190 runners the LS1's are 204.

Now let say he did buy a stock LS1 for *** knows how much everything for those engines cost more than old school engines cams, intake, rockers, etc. you name it!

With older SBC he'll still have money left over to do some needed suspension work, I know I've just done it! For just over $5000 I was able to build a 400hp SBC, full suspension upgrade, and new tranny ordered. If I'd got a LS1 thats just what I would have a LS1 not a damn thing else.

 

i dont honestly think (in my opinion) hes worried about suspension...i think he would rather just race in a straight line....cause street racing like fast and the ferocious is kinda dangerous.......

 

psst. thoes numbers are for the CNC machined AFR heads.
port the LS1 castings and they go far beyond the AFRs...

if i was going to get a SBC head, i would be ONLY looking at 18* or 15* heads at this point.. the prices for used ones have fallen pretty damn far.

and i suppose your right... 5k got you 400hp, suspension and tranny.
all 5k got me was 400hp, and tranny.. no suspension..

[sarcasm]
you win. because 400peak RWHP is all the same.. theres absolutely nothing else to it.... [/sarcasm]

lol

 

NO those are for stock street AFR heads you know why because AFR don't sell their heads any other way but CNC machined. Don't forget to look at TFS heads either they flow the same as the LS1 heads an even more at higher lifts. Also look at the Dart heads and vortec right on par with LS1.

Did you know AFR has their own version of LS1 heads? I was with my dad at the Hospital today and he had the most recent Hot Rod magazine and it show a flow comparison of the new LS6 head vs AFR LS1 version. The AFR out flow the LS6 just about everywhere.

Now so far I have proven a stock LS1 head dosen't out flow a street old style sbc AFR head and the competition AFR head flows just as good as a LS6 head. An the AFR LS1 head beats them all until you get bigger runner head like the 203 and 210 old style head that AFR makes also. Just go to the darn website an quit assuming stuff its all there!

BTW tell me about your car do you have 400hp RWHP with your LS1? If you do what did you do to get that kind of hp? Have any Dyno number since you installed it? Have any track times?

 

Flow numbers aren't everything. You have to look at the overall design of the head. You can take any cylinder head and make it flow a tremendous amount of CFM. Hogging out a head for CFM isn't the only thing to make power. A 400hp LS1 is better in every way than a 400hp carb Gen I motor. In most cases it will make more average power as well. To many people get caught up in the CFM ratings of heads. You need to look at chamber design, port angle, port size and shape, material, etc etc. Flow #'s are secondary to the above.

You can obtain 400 at the wheels with an LS1 with nothing more than long tubes and a cam. The AFR LS1 heads are for extreme blown large CI applications. There is no reason to bring them into this debate since they are for motors that will propel cars into the 8's. There is a reason why there aren't many LT1 and LS1 aftermarket heads. No one would spend $2k on heads when their stockers will support 500+hp. About $50 for a porting kit will yield them 300+cfm. GM has put more testing and design brains into the cylinder heads than any aftermarket company. Companies like AFR just do thier own R&D with new GM heads. Rip off and Duplicate.

 

I've keep up with GM tech for years there is no doubt that the LS1 is superior in everyway to the earlier sbc but I've have yet to see a stock LS1 348 cu in with only a cam and exhaust upgrade produce 400 hp at the wheels! Crank yes all day long at best I've seen in any mag or TV show was 370 with a 100 shot of NOS. If it were that easy why even build a 6.0 liter 400hp engine or even the 7.0 liter 500 hp when all they had to do was add a cam and pipes to the old LS1 and make 400 RWHP which should make about 500 at the crank.

I have another mag here somewhere that talk about 7 good engine combination one of them was a stroked 383 LS1 that made 480ish at the crank it came out about 5 or six months ago when I find it I will be sure to tell you exactly what it said.

You might be right all I'm saying is the guys that write those mags could be full of BS but they do this stuff for a living. An if you have seen it done please by all means prove me wrong I'm always interested in stuff like that an would love to see it done.

But honestly if you were in this guys position that started this post what would you do buy a LS1 spend the extra money in upgrading it or build a sound earlier sbc with some good heads for alot less and still get really good streetable performance?

Your the Support/Moderator give us your thoughts on what this guy should do to make a STI/LS1/EVO killer in his 3rd gen.

 

Hey I just came from the LS1Tech forum and some guy asked whats the easiest way to get 500 hp at the crank? An everybodys repley was get a HEAD and cam package or have your heads ported for about $1500 to $2000. Guess what aftermarket head (the only head BTW) they all recommended buying??? AFR YOU GUESS RIGHT!!! Not one of them said stock untouched heads can do it. The LS1 probably can do it with stock heads but you would need a non-streetable cam and cut out some valve reliefs in the pistons to make it work.

 

AFRs good but expensive!!!!!!!!

 

ok, you have your tweeked out AFR heads. obviously, they're CNC ported like we both agree... thats how AFR does it.

now i go send my stock castings to TEA and have them CNC ported (for less then the cost of your AFRs)... now i flow over 300CFM.... and over a larger area.


but thats not my point anyway.. like shifty said, peak CFM doesnt mean anything (athough it means more with the LS1 then the SBC because base circle of the cam lobes is larger, allowing more agressive cam profiles.. aka, more peak lift duration for the same valve duration.)

but all thats lost on ya anyway.. boltons (external parts like exhaust, headers, CAI, ect) and a mild cam gives 400RWHP... and if you dont believe me... thats fine. i dont have to convince you of anything... lol



back to the orignal poster.. put some good 18* heads on... and you'll end up with similar numbers for similar cam specs and the engines will behave... 23* heads are the dark ages.. lol.

 

I would tell him to look at an LT1 or LS1 swap. I want every advantage FI has to offer that carb doesn't. Many guys on LS1 sites also don't have ported heads with dyno sheets. They too are magazine mechanics who let a few articles dictate how they ration their advice. There are so many 400rwhp LS1 cars out there than you can shake a stick at. They have very streeable cams that are huge. They also do it on untouched heads. Look for the people who have the dyno numbers and track times along with their modifications list. I am not saying that old school Gen I set-ups are a dumb choice, I am merely suggesting the best of both worlds. There are a few LS1 cars in my club that are in the 9's, 10's, 11's and 12's and not one of them has aftermarket heads. There is also a guy who has a heavy *** vert with nothing more than suspension stuff and a cam that runs 12.05. You are looking at CFM numbers to make your choice. Look at track times and trap speeds. AFR heads are awesome indeed, but they aren't needed to make monster power.

There is also a guy in our club who swapped in a stock LT1 in his T5 IROC. He has run a best of 12.9 with only $3000 out of his pocket. You may be able to run the same time with a gen I set-up but you wouldn't get 28mpg and have the ability to add 100 hp with nothing more than tuning, a cam, and some port work.