Ok I am wondering who would win in a race against my freind. He says that he could beat me, But I am 100% he couldn't. His car is a 1986 Camaro Iroc Z28 with a non posi/drum/3.23 rear end, 305 TPI autozone crate engine with domed pistons and everything else stock, stock tranny, car has a total of 160,000 miles on it and about 1,000 on the engine. Everything else on the car is completly stock with 163,000miles on it. My car is a 1992 Camaro RS. It has a 305 TBI that is completly rebuilt with about 500miles on it. It has an open element air filter, hypertech streetrunner chip, comp cam (a little larger than the LT1 cam), comp valve springs, rebuilt heads,edelbrock performer tbi intake manifold, 3 inch catback exhaust, no-cat or emissions. The tranny is completly rebuilt with about 500miles on it w/new torque converter. The rear end is complelty rebuilt with 3.73 gears, and eaton posi w/drums. My whole suspension is rebuilt including new struts, shocks, tie rods, idler arm,ball joints, new tires all around, umi perfomance trailing arms and panhard bar, and all new brakes with new calipers/seals. Everything on the car is new and everything has been gone through. I just want that reasurance that I could easily beat him in a race.

Have you done any tuning? without it your mods are worthless.

I think you would probably win because of the gears, cat back, cam, & intake. Those are always good upgrades that get decent gains. On the other hand who knows what is in that other engine. I say go out and run em, then you'll know for sure.

I know for a fact their is nothing else in that engine. So is it 100% I will win?

As mentioned above you need to do chip work. Chances are you aren't much faster than stock. All the mods you have will add power but only if you do chip work. Without the chip work the mods are worthless.

What cam and heads is he running on that motor? Did he transfer the stock components off the old motor?

There are too many factors in this race to declare a winner. Sounds like you just need to line them up at the track.

If he's stock with a new bottom end, and you've tuned your car, you'll win hands down. If you havn't tuned it, you'll be wasting your gas.

Tuning is not going to make that much of a difference. And yes the bottom end is a autozone engine crate 305. The heads and everything else is stock on his car.

No, tuning does make a big difference. I can't believe people still do all these modifications to their ride but don't tune for them. It seems to be a common thing among TBI powered vehicles.

I thought those autozone engines sucked so I thought I defiantly have the advantage. Plus everything on his car is stock..I mean not a single thing on it is performance.

Well what do you guys estimate my horsepower at right now and if after I tuned it. My L03 came stock with 170hp. My friends car came stock with 190.

Are you serious? Have you ran a 305 TBI down the track before and after a cam swap on the stock tune. I have. Guess which one was faster....not the cam swap. Even adding a full exhaust throws the VE off by 10% or more. That alone is enough to toss the stock parameters off the charts. You need to look into some data logs and see how bad your motor is really running. I am surpised it even runs at all with a cam.

Here maybe this will help. This is a classic example of how important chip work is on any TBI set-up.

Don't want to tune, tough

I would say that over 20 at the wheels was significant. Along with a better running car.

Refer to these threads as well.


Free Tune

Cam Tuning

Could you make a custom chip for my car. I will pay you and I will send all my information of my car to you. I don't care if it runs exactly right but by you making a custom chip it will defiantly improve it some. I just don't want to get it the custom chip making myself. So could you possibley do this for me or recommend me to someone?

Tuning makes a HUGE difference on TBI cars. I've seen it at a local shop with my own eyes. Check those threads shifty linked you too, they'll help out.

I can't give you a horsepower estimate after tuning, I'm not familiar enough with the TBI engines. Maybe shifty can help out with that. What are the exact specs of your cam?
----------
the only person that can accurately tune your car, is someone right in front of it with a laptop

Thanks urbanhunter44 and Shifty I would highly like for your imput on this. But my cam specs are:

Camshaft Specification Table
Part Number 08-500-8
Engine -9999 Chevrolet
305ci-350ci
8cyl.
Grind Number CS XR258HR-12
Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0 0
Gross Valve Lift 0.48 0.488
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 258 264

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valve Timing At 0.006
Open Close
Intake 21 57
Exhaust 68 16

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These Specs Are For The Cam Installed At 108 Intake CL
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 206 212
Lobe Lift 0.32 0.325
Lobe Separation 112

That cam is about the same as an LT1 cam. With the right fueling and chip work you should be able to rocket to 6k shifts. You will be amazed at how much power your car picks up. You should also see 25mpg with a solid tune when you are on the highway. I didn't mean to come off harsh on my last post. I assure you that isn't my intent but I feel I may have been a bit too harsh. You have a great combo in your car right now (and I mean a great street combo!) and it is begging to be let out. You could have a solid mid 14 second car with those mods. Without the tuning chances are you are still in the low 15's. Unfortunatly I cannot burn a chip for you because I use my buds equipment (we share) and his shop is hours away from me. Are you sure you can't do it yourself? You would be suprised what you can do. Granted it is really intimidating at first but some gernal knowledge of closed loop systems and basic IC engine stuff (spark and fuel) go a long way. The good tuners will tell you that if you can post on TGO you already have the smarts to burn your own chip. With all the know how on TGO you always have somebody willing to help you out. You can buy the stuff for $150 and have numerous chips burnt in the first few hours. People who just get started are typically always able to get there car to run smoother and stronger after a couple of burns.

WOW. yeah he's gonna RAPE you if you don't get down and dirty and start tuning that tbi monster.

Well could you possibley burn one for me? I can tell you have a lot of experience which I lack. I just do NOT want to buy the tbi chip burning equipment myself. So I mean if you could do it that would be awesome and you could make some money from me. Plus your friend and you have combined knowledge of this system that I just don't have. So i would really like it if you could do this for me or if you could recomend me to go somebody else. Thanks alot!

Anybody?

I would love to but you will have to wait a few months. Sorry. My bud is in CT for work right now and I am moving from the northwest ohio area and switching jobs. Have you called any local speed shops? I would seriously check out that "free tune" link I posted above. BMonteSS will basically help you get what you need for free. We don't want money. We just want to help people learn.

Thanks Shifty. I am located in northwest Ohio also. I live in Van Wert Ohio, like 30 minutes from lima ohio. So is their any chance now?

I will be out of here in two weeks and I have a house to attend to 140 miles away. The chip stuff in in Cleveland (where buds shop is) so I can't even get it. I am sorry but I can't help right now. I will be back in lima down the road for other reasons so perhaps I will hit you up then. Plus, I would want my buddy present since he is currently better at it than me (he learned before me and i'm trying to catch up on a motor that isn't running yet; he also has a WBO2). In a few months I will be in a much better position to help. This area sucks for performance shops so you may have to buckle down. I would not abandon the idea yet of you doing it yourself. You just need to do some reading and planning before you start. A few hours of reading the DIY PROM board will make things seem easier. Also, once you start things will click. I was forced to do the same thing at one time and I am forced to do it again with my new combo (well taking a differing tuning approach with a crazy TBI combo).

I mean I could pay you to drive over to myplace or I could drive over to your place and you could personally work on the car and I could leave it their...or if you know refer any speed shops around nw ohio that could tune tbi to me that too would be great.

I lack two things, equipment and time. I am worthless without either. I would call northwest university and see what they can do. They may be able to use your car as a guinea pig for their classes (which would be free to you). Their performance IC engine stuff is one of the best schools in the nation.

in stock form, your friends 081 casting heads will will desimate your crappy swirl port tbi heads.

Yeah I would rather not have my car handled by a whole bunch of kids. But do you know anywhere else that a shop could do it? Any suggestions would be great!

Um, no. Sorry but this isn't true. Stock SP heads (187's) outflow 081's on the exhaust side and only lack slightly on the intake side. I would rather have the lesser of the two evils.

Refer to these threads. The stock 187 heads can support almost 300 HP untouched. Dewey316 did a before and after dyno comparison of stock 187 heads vs ported 416's (same as the 081's). The 187 heads embarrased the 416 heads under 4200 rpm and they only made more power past that point due to extensive porting. With port work the 187's would more than likely make more overall power than the 416/081 heads.

TBI and TPI head flow data

Dewey's results are at the bottom of the page.

We like these heads now?

Fast355 also makes 350hp on his 312 TBI with 187 heads. He has many other combos that run near 400hp with ported SP heads. Worthless, I think not.

Refer to other threads by kdrolt, fast355, and dewey316.

These heads are terribly missunderstood and equally missrepresented. All the hearsay and hand waving claims of their "worthlessness" hold zero merit next to track, flow and dyno data.

i would just fork out the cash and buy the equipment. learn how to use it, and tune it yourself. it'd be way cheaper in the long run, i promise. also, there is definitely something to be said about being able to tune your own car.
----------
right, and my stock 416 heads that supported my 340hp 305 are junk then.

I didn't say that.

They are not worthless at all. That is not what I am saying. They are a different head but they aren't leaps and bounds better than SP heads like everyone claims. The SP heads are torque monsters (fast burn heads) and with port work can easily perform the same way as any other stock GM cast head. To clarify that I mean pre GenII/III. Until the LT1 and LS1 head came out no GM head (including all TPI heads) was truly considered a performance head. The powerbands are different so you will have to match it to your combo but the proof is in the facts. Your 416 heads are great, I won't deny that. I maintain, through others work and data of a direct comparison (based on dyno, math, and flow data), that the SP heads are just as effective when used right.

Fast355, Dewey, Dyno Don and kdrolt have all provided data that dissproves countless myths of SP heads. So far those who don't believe them have zero data to counter their claims.

no gm heads huh? what about the 113 casting heads on my 430hp monster now?

shifty, i'm just screwin' which ya, tryin' to stir the pot here alittle. stock for stock, the 416 or 081 heads are gonna make more power. and that's what we are dealing with here, stock for stock. i DON'T have numbers from a flow bench or from a dyno, but i DO have numbers from the track. my 305 went 13.03@103.1mph in a 3280lbs. car. simple as that.

What tires do you run

me? i run those 295/50/16 i bought from you for the street and a set of 275/60/15 m/t ET Street Radials for the track.

I was thinking the same thing, I assumed that he had tuned his setup for his mods if his car was even running. Then again it is becoming very common for people to disregard the potential and neccessity of a tune-especially on TBI. If Shifty cannot help you, I and most ppl here would probably suggest that you invest in the equipment to learn how to tune yourself, it's cheaper and more precise than any other method. Sorry if I'm being a horses a$$ or sounding like a now it all but tuning TBI is an absoloute must.

wow man, just learn to burn chips yourself! It's not very expensive and you'll have unlimited tuning capability for your own car and others! It's truly NOT HARD! I managed to learn LT1 Edit in a day, and burning a TBI chip is quite a bit easier, imo.

Technically they too aren't considered "performance heads". No Gen I head was. Although they make great power (and should be used) they lack certain traits.

416/081 heads are great cores. There is no doubt and it is evident in your track times. I am just saying that with the right combo SP heads can produce the same results. Dewey has already run 12.9 with his stock SP heads. Granted he sprayed a 100 shot but none the less he still went beyond peoples expectations. Fast355 also runs 15.3's in his 305 TBI van yacht that weighs 5500lbs. If that motor were put in a f-body one would expect similar times to what you had.

If one has 416/081 heads they should retain them. New evidence is showing that you can make the same power (and a lot more if you have a combo that stays below 4200 rpm) with SP. Swapping one for the other doesn't make much sense unless you are tweaking your powerband to run in a specific manor.

I was the biggest SP head basher of them all. I had nothing but bad things to say and I relied on what other people said about them. Then stuff started to not add up. Trends were being developed by people who had great TBI tuning skills. We found the true weaknesses of these motors and the heads were not on the initial list. To back that they took their own time and money to flow and port their SP heads and run back to back comparisons against 416/081 heads. The results are hard to ignore and I can't dissmiss them. Stay tuned because I hope to have the fastest NA SP headed LO3 by summers end.

I am not trying to tell everyone to run out and get these heads. They are not performance heads (and neither are TPI). I am just dissproving a lot of myths about them so people are better understood.

so, at this point, what is the fastest N/A SP TBI combo? dewey went 12.9 sprayin' 100 shot? i went 13.0's frickin' N/A. Imagine if i had ever put the jug on this one! Tim Burgess is the fastest n/a 305 that i know of, running a 12.9 on motor, but he's got heavily worked 081 heads and TPI, with a 6spd.

and last i knew Fast355 is running the 601 heads, which are similar to the 416/081 heads, he's just running tbi ontop.

So what you're saying is that if you want to build an N/A 305, you are just as well off building an N/A 4 banger? Interesting.....

stu, 081s and TPI is hardly a performance setup. Probably daily driven without a problem, yet near the edge of N/A 4banger performance with the same manners.

the fastest purpose built n/a 305 is probably in the 9s or 10s somewhere.

So what you're saying is that if you want to build an N/A 305, you are just as well off building an N/A 4 banger? Interesting.....

So what you're saying is that if you want to act like a jackass, you are just as well off acting like stu? Interesting.....

Fast355 has numerous combos and he runs 601's on one, 081's on another, 187's on more than one and 193's on one.

Lo-tec ran 13.6 at 101 with stock SP heads and a small cam. This was a carb set-up as to eliminate all fueling and tuning problems. With a larger cam and port work he could have easily dropped the ET further. JPrevost also ran basically the same times with his SP headed car. IIRC he had a slipping tranny and a peg leg rear. Fix those two items and again you drop ET's.

The fastest SP headed car has yet to be seen. New light has been shed on tuning. 99% of all people running SP heads also run TBI. Tuning and fuel limitations are keeping them out of the 12's and not the heads. TGO has really joined the best TBI tuners in the world and together they have truly unlocked the potential of these cars. Until then the hot rod world didn't understand them. Chip tuning them is not the same as any other car and many shops screw up the tune.

Also, port work is the key to these heads. In stock form they have a pretty substantial flow imbalance (but flow 30cfm more on the ex than TPI). Port work on the intake really wakes them up.

With a carb you eliminate all fueling and air flow problems. If you swapped to a TBI and you ran slower (knowing you went 13.0) would you blame your heads?

We are still analyzing the trends and data so the best times have yet to be seen. In the end 416/081 heads may be better but calling SP head worthless, knowing they can run mid/low 13's in stock trim, is just silly.


I forgot to add,

using Vizard's estimate for power potential based on head flow, and equated to a v8 305

2.0*165*305/350 = 288 fwhp

165 being the peak cfm for untouched 187 heads.

Seems to me I'd rather spend money on expensive aftermarket heads...

I think that shows how little you actually know.....

I guess I could say if you want to run in the mid to high 14 teens build a N/A 4 banger, because that is the fastest I have ever seen them run...

Does that mean I am dumb enough to think they cannot run any faster than that?
Nope... Just takes someone who knows what there doing to run faster..(Same with domestics)

As far as the SP heads... How many classes where the racers are limited to stock Gm castings do you see people using SP??? Think there is a reason for it???

I am not saying you cannot make power with them or run decent... However, you are leaving power on the table using them

For someone who wants higher performance than yes. However, if the first time modder can make his 16 second car run mid 13's without touching the heads than his budget just got cheaper and easier. For some people low 13's (or faster) is all they want.

I am not trying to be mean but I am still failing to see proof. If you have to run a totally untouched head (like in those classes) than yes you would not want to run a non SP head. Like I have said. flow past 4200 rpm (where the motor would be down the whole track) is better and is what you would want. This only holds merit for a small situation though and I understand the reason why no one would run them. You aren't rebuking anything. For a street car that doesn't operate past 4200rpm all the time 416/081 heads may not be the better choice. In addition, port work greatly improves the performance of both heads but even more so in the case of SP heads.

I love how my posts practically yank idiots out of the wood work. Thanks for making an appearance fellas!

So back to my problem, who do you guys think could make a chip for me? I was thinking tbichips.com and he said $120. Is this a good price?

Don't you need to actually dyno tune the car to get a tune that is worth two turds?

stu, you crack me up sometimes... but he's right fellas. building a naturally aspirated 305 is similar to the 4 banger world. either purpose built 10's or street driven low 13's, 305's and 4 bangers are doin the same times.


anyway, there are 350 TPI and 383 TPI cars deep into the 12's. i dont see why a properly built 305 cant do the same. especially a stick car with good slicks and some minor weight reduction

full aftermarket TPI stuff will flow enough air to feed a 350 to 5500rpms. that will feed a 305 to 6000rpms.

u take out a nice set of hacked out SLP runners and ported base and plenum, mate that to a nice set of ported vette heads with the small 58cc chamber to keep compression up, and add a LPE 219 cam with a nice tune, and LOOK OUT. that will be one fast 305 that will rev reallly high and make goood power.

Yes you do.

I think you had another one slip by some of us stu. HA!

TBIchips.com is a joke (to those who tune) but so many people love throwing their money at him. It may make you happy but at first but when you start to learn how to tune (which you will because his chip will get you 1% of the way there) you will laugh at what he provides.

I thought he was a pretty trustworthy person from what I have been reading on here. I know people say that the chip he provides isn't going to be perfect but 99%percent better than my chip now which is a hypertech streetrunner chip.