I have a 91 RS, 305 tbi, auto. Only mod is dual snorkel intake. My friend (roommate actually) recently bought a 2002 Camaro v6, with 5 spd. The going argument is who has the fasteset car among our friends (no gear heads except me). I want to go against him, but I want to win. Should I do headers and full 3 inch exhuast with tune and then take em, or do I have any sort of chance now?

 

that '02 V6 camaro is going to be a handful for a stock 305tbi

 

How bout with the l69 intake, and headers with 3" exhaust? I've already argued that I'll beat him, so now I have to get the rs into shape.

 

can he drive? if he can i think you'll lose even with the bolt-ons. if not, you may edge him out. ive kept up w/ a 6spd lt1 z28 for 1st and 2nd so i guess it depends on how well the driver can drive.

 

your moving in the right direction by helping the car to breathe better but the stock tbi cam and heads are going to hold the car back a lot...try your luck with those mods, and hope he's not all that good with a manual trans.

 

He's got ya. If you had a 5 speed and a posi, then your bolt-ons could really help you out, but if he can drive, he will win.

You've most likely got 2.73 non-posi out back. You could probably win if you get a posi or locker, and get a cam and computer tune it. Or just get a cam and go carb.

Nitrous would probably be the best option in terms of ease and cheapness, though $1500 can buy a new roots blower for TBI, but you'll need a new hood and a few fuel system changes since it's not carb.

 

he is totally new to manual. wut if i manual shift my auto? maybe hold it in first a little longer so the shift into second doesnt drop it to under 3000rpm. i'm dissapointed that some bolt ons wont push me past a v6.

 

An L03 doesn't have much of a powerband above 4500 rpms, and holding your car in gear where it's past it's powerband will more likely hurt you in the race, as he'll just pull on you more until you shift. I shifted my L03 car manually, because stall-launching it on the street it would spin first off the line to 5k and the 700 would promptly put it into second without any traction

I have heard some people on this site say that with the car manually shifted into 1st you have more line pressure, but I don't know enough about it to know if that's true.

As far as the bolt ons thing, it just a matter of how horrible your stock camshaft is. I know there are guys who have gone faster with auto L03s and bolt-ons on the TBI board, but I had most of the mods except headers and an excellent computer tune and I could only hit a 15.7. With a posi I could have done better because my 60' was horrible, but still, not enough that I would have easily edged out a 5 speed 3.8 Camaro. They can hit a 15.0 pretty easily.

If you had a 305 TPI (LB9) then there are some really good bolt-ons available to push you well into the 14s, but with an LG4 or L03 and an automatic with the stock stall, you're not going to see much faster than low 15s without doing at least a cam swap. Also, if you had a 5 speed/posi combo, that would put you over the top. But the L03/700-R4 combo is just no fun.

 

92Formula just did beat a 2001 v6 auto. The only reason he did win was because he got the jump on him. So if your friend can drive, he just should beat you. It'll be close, but its his race to lose.

 

ya i have one of those 3.8 camaros but mine is i 96. the 3.8 is definitely peppy just the other day i destroyed a 4.6 cougar he got a 2 car jump at 70and i end up beating him by 4 at 95

here is a link to the story http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=446968

 

do the bolt ons, though i'd also like to see you do some prom tuning, cause i've seen bolt ons hurt the tbi cars do to an increase in air flow. i'd also like to see a posi,3.42 gears, relocation brackets for the lca's and some sort of stickier tire...then take it to the track.

all in all, get ready to drop a solid $1500 or more to get where you want to be...that is, if you do all the work yourself.

 

An ALDL cable is the very next item on my list. I want to start studying the computer. $1500 sounds doable over the next year or so (im still in college ).

 

I'm not trying to enrage the TBI people, I'm just not a fan of the stock TBI unit/stock intake's performance capabilities.

I would personally use part of the $1500 converting to a carb. Throw a Quadrajet on there for economy/reliability and learn how to tune it, and compliment it with a good dual plane intake and a cam. If you match that with headers-back exhaust and posi, you probably won't even need gears. The stock TBI heads are not nearly as bad as people think in terms of flow numbers. With a good matched cam for a stock stall, like a roller Comp XE262, you'd probably have a good shot at low 14s if you spent some time fine tuning the carb and ignition.

I'd even go with a non-CC Q-jet so you can fine tune your ignition curve with a recurve kit and advance springs.

I think you can meet your goal pretty easily with $1500, regardless of what route you take. But, before someone else says it, remember that you could probably buy a decent 350 block using about $300 of that if you look hard enough, and save yourself some regret (for building a 305).

 

i would go with a edelbrock rpm intake (air gap if you want to spend the extra money) a edelbrock 650 for ez tuning, and a mechanical distributor. all of which can be transfers to another sbc if you feel the need. i would also buy a cheap cam because power is a drug you will get hooked and you will have to have more. When that time comes you might regret spending the money on the 305.

but that is just me and i hate modding 80's computer controlled cars that can so easily be converted to carb

 

I appreciate the input. I'm sticking with the TBI becuase both the TBI world and carb world are new to me, but I've spent a lot of time looking up how to tune the TBI. I go to school for comp sci, and the idea of programming my car is something ive gotta try .
I may go the 350 (probably larger) route if power becomes an addiction (probably will). I want to stay with the 305 because Im not concerned with massive power rite now, rather keepin the RS an RS. The biggest v8 that came in a thirdgen RS was a 305, and i want to keep my car like that. I just would like to make sure it could beat a v6 .

 

Just promise that you will spend your money on worthwhile things, and your $1500 will carry you reasonably far.

Posi/gears, Cam/intake, and tuning should be your top priorities. Don't waste your money on stupid crap like SFCs that aren't going to provide an acceptable cost-benefit ratio on a cammed L03. If you focus your money on those 3 areas and you're willing to spend a lot of time computer tuning, you will hit low 14s. I know that with a carb and good posi/gears, cam/intake and tuning that 13s is really a more realistic goal for a well tuned cammed 305, even with the L03 heads. But getting there with TBI is going to be harder because you start to run into fuel supply problems, and the tuning is a harder. Nonetheless, you CAN hit 14s.

What sucks about TBI cars is that normally I'd say just do a L98 or LT1 swap and be smart about it (i.e. buy the motor with all accessories, harnesses and it's ECM and have a mechanic buddy help you), but with a TBI car you'd then also have to replace your fuel pump and all of your fuel line from your tank to the motor because TBI is a low pressure fuel system, which is a huge PITA on a F-body. Which is why I got rid of my RS, and am going to replace it with a TPI 3rd gen. But, if you can live with a carb on your 3rd gen, you don't have to worry about it.

 

uhh...did you just say not to worry about sfc's??? a car that doesn't have flex in it will respond of the line better taking less time to get moving. they are DEFINITELY worthwhile.

 

Assuming he builds the 305 to make around 240hp/300 lb ft, for the structural integrity of his car, yes it will help keep him from possibly hurting his subframe. But it won't reduce his ET's noticeably at such a low power level. And I don't think they're totally neccesary with a car of that speed unless it lives at the strip and is launched like that consistently.

SFCs aren't known to really even drop times on stock L98 cars, and stock L98 cars are not known to have bent subframes from years of running without SFCs. Once some serious power levels are reached, then you need to start worrying about it.

 

Just from what I have heard about ttop cars and SFCs, and the way I can feel my car twist when i drive "spiritedly", i'm going to drop the 200 for the sfc and 150 to get them welded in. i am doing all the bolting work on my car, no welding.
world product s/r torquer heads with 55cc chambers, the Comp XE262 (roller), new lifters, timing gears n chain, edelbrock performer rpm intake, and all the gaskets looks to set me back around $2000, according to pricing on summit. I've read articles of 305s (mostly lg4s) with all these bolt ons showing 290 to 300 fwhp.
btw, ive heard of people paying $40 for an LT1 cam. why is the XE262 around $250? is it worth it to go with the XE262 over the LT1?

UPDATE: I just noticed I should probably take this over to the TBI board. Thanks for the help.

 

Please stop, stop talking out your ***. Do you even know what a "subframe" is? Have you seen the effects of a torquey car without connectors? I doubt it.

Even stock cars, after some abuse, will show signs of minor twists.
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Yup.

 

Hmm, I've never raced a 3.8L V6 in those Camaros and Birds, but it seems like you should be able to easily take him with just headers and a catback if you ask me. The TBI cars are already rated at abouat 170HP or so, and the exhaust mods should add a pretty good chunk of power considering how crappy the system is on stock TBI cars. I don't wanna give out any definitive numbers since so many people call BS on pretty everything now, but I think it should be plenty enough to take a stock 3.8L V6. Add to that some optimizations to the PROM tuning and he'll be seeing tail lights all day long (until he mods his car heh).

You'll want to make sure you get the jump on him though, the torque of your 305 is where you'll have the best advantage. If you stay even or he takes you at the line, it's all over. So just nail that launch and I think you'll have him.

 

The 3.8 5spd I drove around felt faster then my bone stock LO3...

 

a good running 3.8 5 speed with a above average driver can hit low 15's all day long. now all you have to find out is how to get to mid 14's and you got hem beat

 

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I guess I was just underestimating the power of those little 3.8L engines. Doesn't seem like they would be as fast as low 15s stock.

 

Where you located? I know where you can get a 400 sbc for 300 complete with manifolds and intake.

All you need is a carb

 

Honestly, I think I could take him rite now, just because he is totally new to stick and doesnt really know much about cars. BUT, i want reassurance, so ill wait till full exhaust. may be a while, but ill post up wenever the race goes down.

 

Get him a race against someone you've already ran and see how he does against them. You should be able to see how u would do against him that way

 

Show me one legitimate example of either a bone stock L98 or lesser thirdgen showing reduced ETs from SFCs, OR one example of a 14 second or slower 305 car that's has "signs" of being damaged from not having SFCs and being driven normally (like I stated).

I have seen the effects of a high torque motor in a 3rd gen, but the key here is, this a mild 305 we're talking about, probably won't see the high side of 270rwtq, and he probably won't be using a wild stall or manual trans, so it probably won't even launch all that hard. If his goal for it is to build it until it will beat stock V6 4th gens, sorry, shouldn't be investing SFCs and suspension if he's on a college student's budget. If he wants to make this a monster (especially if it's a t-top car), then yeah, SFCs wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

No, SFC's won't directly lower ET by itself, that's not the point. I also never said if he should use that money to blow on SFC's. I was merely point out that fact that what you said is complete ****. Also, I've seen stock cars start to show some signs...they've seen a lot of track time on decent sticky tires. Any subframe car will benefit from them...but then again I'm sure with your vast knowledge and track experience, especially with your street machine you already knew that.

Also, do you even know what signs to look for? I'll give you a hint...it's not damage to the "subframe"

 

I don't really get why you insist on throwing gasoline on this debate by blindly making assumptions about me and my experience with cars. It really comes across as being immature. We have now BOTH said essentially the same thing, there is no point in taking this discussion any further.

My version

Your version.

If you want to take up a personal argument and attack my character as opposed to having a legit discussion, that's what PM's are for.


I've helped put together a 406 powered 84 Firebird that runs 10s, and addressed a lot bigger issues than SFCs. I've also helped set up a H/C/I L98 IROC that ran 11s on the bottle, and after one summer at the track, and a LOT of street races, the doors barely close on the car because they no longer line up properly, and there's just a few cracks in the paint on the roof .

Also, my "street machine" is a full frame car like all other g-bodies, so my car isn't in need of SFCs for obvious reasons, though I plan on boxing the LCAs when I do posi/gears/cam.

 

I think the argument here is, sfc's will not help your cars performance if you're looking to spend money performance wise. They'll help the cars integrity and will make the car last longer, but if you're wanting the most bang for your buck for performance, sfc's wont be on the list. Which is what hes wanting.

Any car i take to the strip on a regular basis tho, i would def. eventually put some on.

 

I'm not trying to be a jackass but you're spreading false information. Nowhere did I say it'd make him faster, nowhere did I say that HE should put them on in lieu of his current budget situation. I was merely laughing at your statement.

But to stay on topic why bother modding a car in order to beat a V6 fbody? (unless we're talking a real V6 fbody like the TTA)

 

I didn't say that SFCs are a stupid investment for any 3rd gen...I simply said they're not going to really do much for him if he's going to run an LT1 cammed L03 that might see the strip every once in a while.

Maybe I should do stand up...
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Well, I figure he's already got the 6 cylinder 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gens taken care of. It's just natural progression!

I laugh, but if the 5th gen V6s are as quick as they're supposed to be, this discussion will be about a L98 taking a "new" V6 Camaro in a few years!

 

Hahaha ... back on topic again. If money is well after college, ill make the camaro much more than a v6 beater. but for now, i ran my mouth about beating a 2002 v6 fbody, and, integrity wise (my integrity, not the cars ), I want to set up the car to beat it.

Thanks again for all the input, and for the entertaining sfc debate.

 

Unless you really want to spend a lot of money on your 305, don't worry about a cam and a tune yet. Full exhaust (dual snorkel, headers, 3'' catback), intake manifold, advanced timing, and maybe a posi rear, and you'll hit 14's. These mods should be enough until you're ready for an engine swap.

Everyone always says that you need a cam and you need a tune for your LO3, which makes a lot of sense, but unless you really want to keep your 305 you shouldn't bother spending the money. Do all the bolt-ons and such first, and then when you do an engine swap to something larger (350+) thats when you should invest in a new cam and a chip. If you can burn your own chips, or know someone that can burn a good chip, there isn't a need to ditch TBI in favor of a carb. TBI has its disadvantages, but with a couple upgrades and a good tune, it can be a perfectly fine form of injection for a street driven 350.

Don't get me wrong, a cam and tune would greatly improve the performance of an LO3, but if you're eventually planning a swap, just wait and get the other stuff taken care of first.

 

If he can do a cam swap himself a LT1 cam isn't a bad idea, it's hella-cheap, it would give a decent gain and compliment an intake well. Of course then the crap heads become an even bigger restriction.

 

What about my 92' l03
3.42 gear
3" catback with high flow converter
intake

vs

98 automatic v6 Camaro

 

If the '98 is stock, you will probably win.