Z2EIGHT

This is not a real race, neither of us have the cars, but I could see this race happening in the distant future. Just wondering the outcome.

I plan on dropping in a 350 TPI with some basic bolt-ons this winter, and this kid I know wants to buy a 93-97 LT1. It's going to be an auto because he doesn't like manuals , but nevertheless, has to show me up and have the "fastest" car.

(Yes, my 305 TPI is the fastest car out of my friends)

I'm wondering what I would have to do beat him in a drag race. No street racing crap, a real quarter mile test. Imagine the LT1 stock while the 350/Auto has some basic bolt-ons like headers, catback, and little stuff like that.

Thanks

tpivette89

a friend of mine had a bone stock 94' auto Formula w 3.23 gears. it went 14.0 at 100mph with a 2.0 60ft

with just some free/cheap mods, a catback, DRs, LCAs, and CAI, it went 13.2 at 103mph with a 1.9 60ft

LT1s respond to mods better than L98s do. make sure your car has more done than his does or your packing some spray

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Go read the "Quest for a better flowing TPI" sticky post in the TPI forum and make sure you port your lower TPI intake manifold the same way I did before you bolt it onto the engine. Then you'll be flowing a lot more air and making more power.

Z2EIGHT

Basically this is a battle of airflow? I thought L98s had a little more torque so I'd have the jump until it took me top end.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

I don't think you'd have a jump off the line. I had a stock '92 Formula L98, and I now have a stock '95 Formula. The '95 has much better acceleration. Much better.

BadBowtie88

He did say imagine that the LT1 was stock. If you have the mods done to your car that you say you will, I think you will beat him. In the end though, alot comes down to the driver. I've seen LS1 Camaros run mid 14's all day b/c the driver didn't have a clue what he's doin. In my personal experience racing against LT1's and seeing them race at the track, in stock form they are not all that much faster than most stock thirdgens. There's always exceptions of course, just my

JeremyNYR

iTrader: (2)

I had an L98 and currently have an LT1. The two engines aren't that far apart. Unless one of you has much more done that the other, it can very well come down to traction and driving ability. If he has a bone stock LT1 and you have headers with decent exhaust, you would certainly be capable of beating him in the 1/4 mile.

89IrocZ350TPI

A stock lt1 should run 13.8-14.1. Stock L98s are usually mid-high 14's. So you will need full exhaust, intake,runners, 3.45-3.73 gears, with a 2400-2800 stall to match those times. Make sure you race from a dead stop or you will lose. My best advice is to either get rid of the tpi, or just drop in an ls1 and rape him. Just think about this for a second. Who really has a stock lt1? If I could go back I wouldnt have wasted time putting money into an L98. When I could start with a much stronger motor and get much more out of it with just basic bolt ons. Good luck.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

The usual -
Some Weight Reduction
Poly bushings,SFC's, LCA's, LCARB's
Drag radials
Stall
Gears
Exhaust

If you do any more than that he probably won't want to race you. If he hears a wild cam, sees slicks, or sees you have a LS1 under the hood he may keep making excuses to not race or make excuses why he lost. If you win a race against this kind of opponent, I think you want to keep him puzzled to why he lost, kind of half the fun in it.

JeremyNYR

iTrader: (2)

I ran a 14.04 in the 1/4 with shitty street tires on a hot day and I only had SLP shorty headers and a pieced together exhaust on my L98. While it's possible something was done to the engine before I got it, it appeared to be all stock from the outside. When I ran stock LT1s in the 1/8 mile, I was beating them pretty convincingly with the addition of drag radials. I have an LT1 now and love it, but I have to admit that is isn't THAT MUCH more than the L98 offers when both are in relatively stock form. When you're aiming for 400 RWHP, that's when the LT1 has an easier path to get there.

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

Stock vs. stock... they are pretty close. When I bought my 91' a few years ago, it was essentially stock. Had a few worhtless mods - K&N's, 52mm TB, and an MSD 6A box. I raced a few local LT1 cars that were A4 & 3.23's like my car. It was pretty even on all accords, the 90'-92' SD cars run well.

It basically went like this:

vs. 94' Formula w/ K&N filter, free mods, !cat, flowmaster muffler. I won 2 out of 3 by about a fender each time. First race I blew the tires off and didn't have enough to run him down and drive around him.

vs. 95' T/A w/ K&N CAI and a flowmaster muffler. He got me 2 out of 3 by half a fender, and I got him by half a fender once.

vs. 93' Z28 w/ flowmaster muffler, !cat, free mods, air foil. 3 out of 3, I won by half a car each time.

We played around from 2nd gear to about 100 a few times and pretty much ran door to door. If someone got a good jump, they would hold the lead.

89IrocZ350TPI

hmmm. i have never owned an lt1 but i would think they would own a tpi/l98 from a roll race.

1brd2brd3brd4

91-92 L98 245Hp, 93-95 LT1 275Hp 30 aint much, but I still have to give it to the LT1 if the guy has a clue how to drive.But it could be close.My 93 runs 8.60 i the 1/8 spinning. All I have to compare it to is an LB9 and an LS1. never had an L98

89IrocZ350TPI

Lt1's were underrated just like the ls1. The hp difference is more like 50 over an l98.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

F-body LT1s are internally identical to the Corvette LT1s that were rated at 300hp. So you have a 275hp LT1 for the early years, and later a 285hp LT1, that is really making 300hp. Once cat-backs and CAI's come into the mix the restrictive exhaust that kept the F-body LT1s from making 300hp is out of the picture and they make MORE than the 300hp the actual engine is rated at.

An L98 only stands a chance in a short race, the longer that race goes, the more distance a LT1 is going to put between it and the L98. Or another way. Most stock LT1s in good condition trap about 100mph, L98's trap about 95mph. Thats a large difference.

I had a short highway race a week or so ago against a Formula 350. We started from about 70mph, and quite simply my LT1 swapped car destroyed him. I left him for dead. I have a B-body LT1 making 260hp plus headers, cat!, and a SLP 2otL cat-back. He stood no chance against. We went several times and the result was the same. I did not get a chance to talk with him as we were on the highway going different ways so I have no idea of the running condition of his L98. Perhaps it was a poor example of a L98. Or maybe my exhaust makes that much difference. Won't know since I wasn't able to talk with him.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Yup, well said. That pretty much sums it up.

89IrocZ350TPI

The L98's trap will largely depend on the gearing. A 2.77 geared L98 will probably trap around 93mph, while the 3.27 car will trap 95-96. Its safe to say a 3.27 geared L98 will run 14.6 at around 95 which may hang with a stock lt1 auto from a dead stop. However A 6 speed lt1 will rape a stock l98. They usually run 13.9-14.0 right out of the box. Thats just technology for you. Just like the newer design ls1 cars run 12.8-13.3's stock at 105-107 mph. Its really not a fair comparison. The L98 was not designed to go up aganist lt, or ls motors.

In short the L98 is a 240hp motor, the LT1 is 300hp, and the LS1 is 350hp.

skiroulertx447

so how would it go if the lt1 was an auto and the l98 had a 6 speed swapped onto it?

89IrocZ350TPI

The 1/8 race would probably be side by side, After that the l98 will start to run out of breath as the lt1 slowly passes by. Now an hsr 6/speed L98 would be a much better race. TPI is the biggest thing holding back the l98. My FULL on L98 would match stock ls1's 0-70 mph. Right around 75-80 they would completely blow by me. It would be the same story with the lt1, but it wouldnt be as painful.

BigWhiteGTP

6spd LT1s have a 50hp advantage over L98s, not automatics.

I just sold my LT1 that I owned and modded for 2 years and have every single 1/4 run at the track. And so does my brother with his 97 LT1 who dynoed his car bone stock and got 231hp and 275wtq. It was on a dynojet.

Bone stock 96 auto/3.23 74k Formula and it was good running, DA isn't the best here in AZ, best I could do was a 14.5@95mph with a 2.2. With Drag radials, it got down to a 14.3@95 with a 2.1. Just for comparison, tock LS1s were running 14.0's at 98-99mph. Again, here in AZ, we don't run record times.

With long tubes, gutted ram air intake, catback, I got down to a 13.9@99 with a decent DA on a cold for AZ december day. I later added a 3k Vig stall, but never ran it at the track. Before my bro put in the stall in his 97 3.42/auto T/A we were neck and neck with each other, whoever won the race got the jump. With his stall and the exact same mods, he pulled a 13.1@103. So my car should've done the same.

Moral of the story, depending on where you live, not all LT1s do 14.0@100 stock. I'm sure my car at a much faster track could nail those times.

I'm really curious what my bone stock L98/3.27 puts down. This fall we shall see. I've just about done everything I can to get my GTA running good and it feels really strong. Stronger down low than my LT1 did, but up top it feels about the same. My LT1s top end wasn't that great until the headers and ram air intake.

1brd2brd3brd4

I'm only quoteing factory ####'S here. I dynoed my 93 with 3:73's, ram air, shorty's and 3 inch cat back at 271 to the rear wheels back several years ago. Some say cars are rated by the factory at the flywheel, some say the rear wheels. Havent found proof either way.

89IrocZ350TPI

ANY ls1 running 14.0 needs a serious drive mod. A monkey could run an ls1 to a 13.7. what was the temp like 105? lol My first time out I ran 12.8 at 109 with lid and catback.

89IrocZ350TPI

LT1's and LS1's were rated at the flywheel. Both were underrated to keep sales high on the vette. Think about it. Who would buy at 50K vette when you can get the same power from a 25K f body. 271 is high for an lt1, but not unheard of. Ive seen lt1's dyno 260 bone stock, and ive even seen ls1 cars hit close to 330 from the factory.

http://www.stangbangers.com/01_Bullitt_Article2.htm

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ure/index.html

tpivette89

my old 93' LT1 dynoed 266rwhp and 306rwtq. the car was 100% bone stock with just over 80k miles. doing the 15% drivetrain loss conversion puts that at 313hp/360tq at the flywheel

dont underestimate LT1s. when properly driven theyre an easy 13 sec car stock

TTA 1387

Agreed. My WS6 ran 13.50 when it was bone stock in 96. Put 4.10 gears, K&N, 160 t-stat, and HPP+ in and it went 13.18. It dynoed at 272/307 in 97 after those mods.

They are, for the most part, going to out duel a L98 on any given day.

89IrocZ350TPI

I am confused here. You said you ran 13.5 stock, and there is NO l98 that will run any better than 14.3 out of the box. LT1>L98 anyday

BigWhiteGTP

Do you know what D.A. is? Can you explain why I mentioned it above and what role it plays in track racing?

Also, gearing plays little affect on trap speeds with 2 cars. Stock my bro with his 2.73s (before he swapped to 3.42s) would trap the exact same as I did with 3.23s and his traps didn't increase when he went to 3.42s. But his ET was .1-.2 slower than mine stock for stock but increased that much by going to 3.42s. We were essentially neck and neck afterwards.

89IrocZ350TPI

my full bolt on l98 couldnt break 97 mph with 2.77's. went to 3.42's and hit 100. guess every cars diff.

TTA 1387

I was agreeing with his post about LT1's. Not about a L98.

As far as a L98 running better than that, yes it will. My buddies both had 87 and 88 IROC 350's. The 87 ran a best of 14.3 when it was still stock back in 87. The other ran 14.2 when it was stock. That car also ran 12.3's on the spray. He went through 3 trannies and 2 rears before they stopped warrantying it. Then he took the nitrous off. Fun times back then...

LT1's will outperform L98's 90% of the time. There were some slow LT1's out there, especially the 2.73 A4's and 2.73 M6 cars. The 3.23 A4/M6 and 3.42 M6 cars ran pretty good for the most part.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Don't underestimate a L98 especially moded either though.. My L98'd L05 with stock Swirl Port heads, STOCK Runners, Plenum, Throttle Body, Intake base, LT1 camshaft, stock tubular manifolds, stock dual exhasut, and AUJP Memcal was able to pull my 5,500 lbs G-van to a 15.006 @ 92.30 mph in the 1/4. The van had a 2,600 rpm stalled 700r4 and 3.08 gears out back. The tires were like 29" tall P295/50/R17s. Full interior in it as well. About 1 year ago I upped the cam, installed ported L31 Vortec heads, 1.6:1 full roller rockers, and an edelbrock TPI Vortec base. Still running the stock runners, plenum and TB. I have since not been able to keep a transmission in it long enough to make to a 1/4 mile pass. I will tell you it has gone 8.40s @ 80 mph in the 1/8 in 105*F temps this June and it still has a 3.08 gear!

89IrocZ350TPI

Oh ok haha. Wow 14.2 for a stock l98 is great. My 89 never broke the 14.8 mark stock. Seems like both engines were good for their time, now they seem out dated compared to any of the lsx engines out there.

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

God I hope you're kidding.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

HAS to be. L98 Vettes would run better than a 14.3 bone stock. I have seen some LB9 305 F-Bodies hit low 14s and even a high 13 BONE STOCK.

89IrocZ350TPI

Of course an l98 vette will run a low 14, but a 305 lb9 isnt going to run lt1 times sorry.

z28freak84

he's talkin about 1LE LB9 T5 cars, and 92 230hp T5 cars, etc... high 13's, very doubtful... low-mid 14's, very possible with someone like myself behind the wheel on a cool day, with and iced intake..

89IrocZ350TPI

I have owned 305's and 350 third gens. Bone stock they are dogs, and will not run high 13's. If you think so you are delusional. There may be a select few bone stock camaro/bird l98 cars that have hit a 13.9, but thats it. On average the 87-89 cars run 14.6-14.8 and the 90-92 SD cars run 14.3-14.5 with an l98.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I have PERSONALLY witnessed a STOCK Speed Density 305 TPI 1LE car with the T5 and Borg Warner 9 bolt 3.45 gear run a 13.8 @ 99 in the 1/4 mile. NOTHING done to it.. STOCK down to the MEMCAL in the ECM.

89IrocZ350TPI

Id have to see that to believe it. No offense.

IROCThe5.7L

The L98's that I see the most running real low 14's stock are the SD's.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I find it hard to believe that they stop at the 14s with the dual cats and everything.

CONSIDERING.....

I have the same 350 CID engine, same runners, same plenum, same TB, same transmission and an overall higher gear ratio and still ran a 15.006 @ 92.30 i n the 1/4 pulling 5,500 lbs

Granted I had factory tubular manifolds and factory 2 1/4" dual exhaust... I was running a stock AUJP Memcal and Swirl port heads.. The TBI 350 came with 18cc dished pistons and a 8.75:1 compression ratio as well. The production LT1 cam I had in this engine at the time is not really any hotter than the factory TPI cam either.

As you can see I reach 85 mph on an uphill onramp in 15 seconds, even having to let off for the dying 700r4 to make a WOT 1-2 shift (was pushing 6K on a 4,500 rpm TBI Van governor). 2-3 was still happening under 5,000 and it ran best pushed out to 5,500l I should also mention it was 105*F outside and the A/C was blasting too.

http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/f...t=101_1468.flv

EDIT- The speedometer did not come out on my old crappy camera on this run, but this is one with a correctly functioning 700r4.. LT1 governor in it that let it shift at ~5,500 rpm 1-2 and 2-3. MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better more consistent acceleration than the above video. It shifts 1-2 @ 45 mph and 2-3 @ 92-94 MPH, 3.08 gear with a 29" tall tire.

http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/f...t=101_1403.flv

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Sorry man thats what it ran.. I have seen that engine/transmission/rearend combo DYNO at 235+ RWHP and 280+ RWTQ on a Mustang Dyno, that is MORE then enough to push a featherweight 1LE car into the 13s.

IROCThe5.7L

...?

I was talking about stock L98's. In my opinion, the MAF L98's with crappy gears will run high 14's. With G92, Id say mid to low, more towards 14.4ish. And the SD G92 L98's low 14's.

89IrocZ350TPI

Ok my full bolt on l98. meaning cat back w/high flow cats, headers, intake, runners ported and simeased, ported plenum chip, cai, k&n's, 1.6 rr, tb by pass, underdrive pulleys, and 3.45's dynoed 245rwh and ran 13.5 on street tires. A stock l98 or lb9 isnt going to make that lol

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

:werd: A bone stock 305 on stock tires dipping into the 13's at 99 mph...yeah...I don't know about that.

So you're saying that STOCK LB9's can put out the same power at the crank as what LT1's were rated at?

Sorry man, either the dyno was on crack or that motor wasn't stock...

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Are you a 1LE car? DOUBT it... Those are lighter and have some upgrades. Not to mention the WC T5 transfers power ALOT more efficiently than your 700r4 does and allows the 305s power to be channeled to the wheels ALOT better.

ONLY 245 RWHP from those mods? I made 280 RWHP on STOCK runners, stock plenum, stock TB.

89IrocZ350TPI

Well they dyno 195-200 stock, 245 is where it should be with those mods. 20 percent loss for auto, 15 for manual, not much difference . 280rwh is where auto ls1 cars usually dyno lol. tpi does not make high end power. Now if you said 280rw torque I would believe it.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

TPI intakes CAN and will make HP... I have they dyno charts and time slips to prove that.

245 RWHP is LOW... I have seen a bone stock TPI Corvette dyno at 225+ RWHP.

195-200 RWHP is what an AUTOMATIC speed density LB9 will dyno. The 5spd cars will do another 10-15 hp above that from the transmission alone, not to mention they have different timing tables in the chip.

My 1983 305 with 240K miles made 181 RWHP/268 RWTQ STOCK through a 700r4 on a Mustang Dyno and it was blowing enough oil into the air cleaner from blow-by at high rpm to fill the shop with an oil smoke haze.

89IrocZ350TPI

Of course they can make power, but tpi is very weak at high rpms. That engine was built for low end power. There are many articles on this site of avg L98 cars making 180- 200wrh stock, which makes sense because they were rated at 225-245. To make 280rwh you are going to need full bolt ons, a maxed out tpi, with a good head, cam combo. There is no way a stock l98 can match the power of a stock lt1, or come anywhere near an ls1 powered car. Its just not a fair comparison. Thats all I am saying.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The TPI is FAR from maxed out at 280 RWHP. You can get 280 RWHP with a Production LT4 cam, 1.6:1 roller rockers, and stock Vortec heads. I know, I have done it.

89IrocZ350TPI

Thats a good setup. All I was saying is a near stock l98 isnt getting 280 rwhp with the stock heads and cam. 280rwh is right around 325-330 at the motor. Thats about 100 hp over what it makes stock.